Dear Students

[vaniii]

Dear students,

I am going to put this plainly, please do what your teachers have asked you to do as they have asked you to do it.

That is all.

V

[hardy_practice]

...and if the teacher is rubbish and just wasting their time?  I'd say ask questions, lots of them, and compare the market.

[vaniii]

...and if the teacher is rubbish and just wasting their time?  I'd say ask questions, lots of them, and compare the market.

No, skip to the last step, don't waste their time, or yours.

[brogers70]

It's good to trust your teacher and to follow their instructions even if they do not seem intuitively right. If whatever seemed intuitively right to the student actually was right, you would not need a teacher in the first place. You need to give a teacher's instructions at least some months to work before you can tell whether they know what they are doing. In the meanwhile, yes, just follow instructions.

But, after a certain point I think you have to have a more balanced interaction with the teacher. Nobody is perfect; no teacher always gives good advice, even great teachers. So once you've reached a certain level, I think it is appropriate to question things. There should be an intermediate choice between "Shut up and do what you're told," and "I'm outta here."

I have a great teacher who has helped my technique a lot. We disagree plenty. She's far more romantic than I am and we hear lots of pieces very differently, so we spend a fair bit of time arguing about interpretation. Sometimes I find the words she uses to explain technique completely useless and I tell her so and try to find other ways to get at what she wants. I think she spends too much time talking about the reasons for arm weight or leading with the elbow or particular wrist positions - I'm already intellectually convinced, I just need exercises to help my body get into the right habits. If I think hearing that the sound has to originate with the arm for the nth time is a waste of time I tell her so, and ask for something physical I can do to improve. She's not always delighted at that sort of feedback, but she puts up with it. She got her musical education in a very hierarchical system, and that's what she's used to. I'm a scientist, and my education and career were all very non-hierarchical and anti-authoritarian. So our natural styles don't mesh, but we both love music, she's helped my a lot, and I think she enjoys it, too.

[lostinidlewonder]

Dear students,

I am going to out this plainly, please do what your teachers have asked you to do as they have asked you to do it.

That is all.

V

If only it was so easy hey vanii? I tell my students to always look at our journal that we write in every lesson, it identifies exactly what they should be working on and how to do it. I know a number of them never look at that book during the week which gets frustrating because they are not using their teacher to the fullest! I have snuck little hidden comments in the book to test if they read it or not, once I put *$5 if you read this comment and mention it next week* lol, and they didn't notice it When I showed them the hidden comment they knew I knew they didn't read their journal and that they missed out!

[hardy_practice]

I think she spends too much time talking about the reasons for arm weight or leading with the elbow or particular wrist positions - I'm already intellectually convinced, I just need exercises to help my body get into the right habits. If I think hearing that the sound has to originate with the arm for the nth time is a waste of time I tell her so, and ask for something physical I can do to improve.

I'm not surprised she's less than delighted!  Intellectually convinced won't butter no parsnips - you seem to be falling behind some how.  PM me if you'd like help on armweight. 

[outin]

In the beginning I was vary to comment on my teacher's methods, but our relationship has developed into a stage where I can tell her to stop doing something. I can bluntly say "Stop using such metaphors, my head does not work that way" when she forgets and then we can laugh about it.

I would have never reach a stage of playing I have now if I had not questioned my teacher's advice sometimes and added to it my independent experimentation and research. But at the same time I would never have done it without my teacher either. There might be a teacher somewhere in the world who is a better match for me in personality (we are very different), but there are no better options for me here. I never expected it to be a smooth ride all the time. I may be a difficult student but my teacher doesn't seem to mind. She actually seems quite delighted when I come up with something different but useful on my own.

But I do get Vanii as well...asking about how to play something here without anybody seeing what you do and not knowing anything about the people you ask is not very smart. While I investigate a lot on my own I would never ask technical advice in forums for a specific piece. That's what I have a teacher for. Of course there are exceptions, if you are very advanced you might ask for suggestions to try on your own.

[keypeg]

Dear students,
I am going to out this plainly, please do what your teachers have asked you to do as they have asked you to do it.
That is all.

Is this a frustration because some of your own students do not do what you ask them to do, in the manner that you have asked them to do it?  Or is it addressed to students here, who are asking, with the assumption that they already have such instructions from their teachers?

[brogers70]

I'm not surprised she's less than delighted!  Intellectually convinced won't butter no parsnips - you seem to be falling behind some how.  PM me if you'd like help on armweight. 

You seem to have misread the post.

[hardy_practice]

You can lead a horse to water...

[brogers70]

You can lead a horse to water...

Wait, you're the one that posted (and then deactivated) that video of yourself struggling with a Chopin Waltz as part of your argument with nyerighazi, aren't you? Even if I didn't already have a great teacher, I certainly wouldn't be PM'ing you for advice on technique.

[hardy_practice]

Struggling?  That's obviously just your opinion.  Intellectually understanding armweight has no meaning.  It's physical - you can do it or you can't.  Neither that Nyer guy or his mentor could. 

[vaniii]

I am frustrated, and needed to just post it somewhere anonymously.

I have no problem to solve, just needed someone to hear me.

[brogers70]

Struggling?  That's obviously just your opinion. 

If you hadn't taken it down, everybody could form their own opinion

Intellectually understanding armweight has no meaning.  It's physical - you can do it or you can't.  

Indeed, that was the point I was making in my original post.

[hardy_practice]

Hate to spoil anyone's fun!  I've run you off a quick one - if you want me to practice I can do even better (obviously).  I suggest you concentrate on the musicality rather than the accuracy!

[keypeg]

Vanii, I think this was an answer to my question.  thx.

I am frustrated, and needed to just post it somewhere anonymously.

I have no problem to solve, just needed someone to hear me.

What I'm seeing.  a) The teachers in this forum who are good teachers, such as yourself (basing myself on what you have written), will have students who don't follow what they're told, and thus don't benefit from what you can teach.  That's one frustration that I think every teacher has in at least a proportion of their students.  b) Questions keep coming in the forum where students who have teachers ask questions of members here.  If they have decent teachers and getting adequate instruction, then there is a problem with this.  Besides, if you have a problem, how can your teacher help if you don't ask?

Thing is, though, that there aren't just good teachers out there, which "hardy" alluded to.  It gets tricky if you're an adult student taking lessons for the first time.  Until you gain some experience, you won't know that something is missing or "off" because you have nothing to contrast it too.  Even the experience you gain is within the narrow world of those lessons.  Teachers frequently complain about the transfer students they get, and the mess they have to try to clean up from those first years.  Moving on to a decent teacher is indeed the answer, as you suggest - but first the student has to know that something is wrong, and what to look for.  In this situation, doing what you are told, as you are told (assuming you're told much of anything) may not be the best advice.  However, where people are jumping from one thing to the next to the next - there it probably IS the right advice.

[vaniii]

Vanii, I think this was an answer to my question.  thx.What I'm seeing.  a) The teachers in this forum who are good teachers, such as yourself (basing myself on what you have written), will have students who don't follow what they're told, and thus don't benefit from what you can teach.  That's one frustration that I think every teacher has in at least a proportion of their students.  b) Questions keep coming in the forum where students who have teachers ask questions of members here.  If they have decent teachers and getting adequate instruction, then there is a problem with this.  Besides, if you have a problem, how can your teacher help if you don't ask?

Thing is, though, that there aren't just good teachers out there, which "hardy" alluded to.  It gets tricky if you're an adult student taking lessons for the first time.  Until you gain some experience, you won't know that something is missing or "off" because you have nothing to contrast it too.  Even the experience you gain is within the narrow world of those lessons.  Teachers frequently complain about the transfer students they get, and the mess they have to try to clean up from those first years.  Moving on to a decent teacher is indeed the answer, as you suggest - but first the student has to know that something is wrong, and what to look for.  In this situation, doing what you are told, as you are told (assuming you're told much of anything) may not be the best advice.  However, where people are jumping from one thing to the next to the next - there it probably IS the right advice.

Keypeg, I have always admired your deeply analytical attitude.  Thank you for indulging me.

I said it before in one of my earliest post on this forum:

As a teacher and musician for a number of years who has established a very-successful teaching practice, I continue to be amazed by how different people respond to music; especially the little-ones.

I often have sleepless nights fretting over students who just won't do that one thing that would make them reach their potential; however, it is made all the more rewarding when they eventually get there and understand why you stuck with them.

Teaching full-time gives me time to work on my craft; practise and performing.  I believe this to be one of the most important aspects; how can one teach effectivly if we allow our own ability to atrophy?  The life of a musician is life long learning.

Honestly, despite the stress, I would never change my job and hope to continue until my last days.  I often joke with colleagues that I would keep teaching even if I won the lottery or came into a win-fall; the only difference is I would immediately sack the time-wasters.

My only advice is: do not give into megalomania, people come to you for the music and your ability to teach it, not you as a human being.  Treat all of your students with respect, and don't forget we were all inexperienced and 'green' at some point.

(PS: I am new to this forum, is it possible to delete a post?)

I know my craft, the problem is not with me; this student has let slip that this is not a unique occurrence.  They have similar issues in all areas of their life.  They ignore all external input, to the annoyance of those who are entrusted to teach them, and then complain when they fail to amount to the success of others.

"If there is a funny smell everywhere you go, check the sole of your shoe."

[timothy42b]

I know my craft, the problem is not with me; this student has let slip that this is not a unique occurrence.  They have similar issues in all areas of their life.  They ignore all external input, to the annoyance of those who are entrusted to teach them, and then complain when they fail to amount to the success of others.

It did feel like it was a personal reaction, and that's why I didn't comment earlier.

In making such a general statement, applicable to all students, I saw two problems.

One is teacher competence.  I agree with keypeg that there are a lot of obviously competent teachers here.  But outside in the real world?  It might be only 1 of 10.

The other is that I suspected you had something specific that you see commonly being ignored, and maybe it would be more useful to us if you told us what it was.  Rather than always pay attention to your teacher, pay attention to your teacher when........

It's sort of like telling your kids to "behave."  "Don't hit your brother" or "take out the garbage by 7:00" is concrete enough to have a chance at compliance.  "Behave" usually doesn't work. 

[hardy_practice]

One is teacher competence.  I agree with keypeg that there are a lot of obviously competent teachers here.  But outside in the real world?  It might be only 1 of 10.

Too true!  and let us never forget that fact.  (I don't know why you exclude PS from that analysis though)  A good maxim is 'the more they say, the less they know' whether posters or teachers.

[keypeg]

A good maxim is 'the more they say, the less they know' whether posters or teachers.

No, that does not work.  At all.

[hardy_practice]

No, that does not work.  At all.

Touché! Hoist by my own petard.

[keypeg]

I did think of the irony of how my response was formatted, but it's more a case of lack of time.

I have seen wordy posts that were full of nonsense, and ones that were worth reading.  I have also seen brief thoughtless reactionary short posts that were empty of substance, and others that were profound.  For the profound ones, they often only made sense for those who were already in the know.  The only way to tell is by examining what is said, and then the problem is that if you know very little, even that is hard to do.

[timothy42b]

I have seen wordy posts that were full of nonsense, and ones that were worth reading.  <snip>
 The only way to tell is by examining what is said, and then the problem is that if you know very little, even that is hard to do.

Okay, but if the word count exceeds my limit I'm not going to read it at all.  That's sufficient evidence to me the writer hasn't thought through the topic enough to say it concisely.  Occasionally I may miss a gem but generally the really verbose posters only produce word salad.

[keypeg]

This is getting into another topic, and it has already strayed with the question of whether or not brevity is a sign of knowledge.  What Vanii was stressing was following the instructions of a good teacher, if you are a student who has a good teacher.

On this off topic thing:
Many things can only really be learned by having a student and teacher work together over a series of lessons, with feedback and clarification.  Carrying out the instruction itself creates the learning.  But if one is going to try to explain things to a mixed audience, enough information has to be there so that they can follow.  There have also been lengthy posts from time to time that I have printed out, and worked out in stages over weeks or longer, because they were worthwhile.  Such posts aren't for everyone.

My only contention is that brevity does not indicate knowledge or lack thereof.  Content does.  I won't write more about this because it's off-topic, and takes away from Vanii's purpose.

[hardy_practice]

My only contention is that brevity does not indicate knowledge or lack thereof.  

Certainly not.   As Tim says, it's conciseness.

[vaniii]

The other is that I suspected you had something specific that you see commonly being ignored, and maybe it would be more useful to us if you told us what it was.  Rather than always pay attention to your teacher, pay attention to your teacher when...

(okay ill bite)

... asking how to read music, then disregard every piece of advice given, because "I don't believe you".

Four years, and this student cannot read notes from 'middle-C' to 'G' evenly, without error, in a five finger position.

They choose to ignore my instruction, and every lesson is met with, "whats that note again?" .. to which I respond, this is "middle-C", proceeding to show them on the piano.  They leave the lessons being able to do it, they go home, do everything but practice what I have asked, then return and say ... "I don't get it!"

Well of course you don't, you have had one thing to remember for four years and chosen to ignore it.  Instead mashing keys, and 'pretending' to play the piano.  Meanwhile, students who started after you are now exploring junior cannon-repertoire, knowing all major scales and can sight-read most of the pieces put in front of them.  Fact is, this student is one student in my week who is consuming all of me, and I have had enough.

I can't be alone in having 'that one' ...

I am urging students to not be 'that one' ... listen to you teacher or find another one, it is infuriating.

[timothy42b]

So what's going on with that student?

Do you think he's just messing with you?

Uh, I hope hope hope you haven't used the same approach with this student weekly for four years.  I'd think after two or three years you'd figured it wasn't going anywhere, and would either let the student succeed elsewhere (fire him), or try something else.

Every once in a while you do run into a devious one who just loves it when your face gets all red.  Again.  And keeps a straight face until he tells the story to his friends. 

Then again there are students with a real deficit that you have to reach some other way, or just accept they aren't cut out for this.   

[hardy_practice]

If the parents are aware of the situation and happy to pay where's the beef?

[vaniii]

So what's going on with that student?

Do you think he's just messing with you?

Uh, I hope hope hope you haven't used the same approach with this student weekly for four years.

This student is highly-intelligent.  They are standard case of mommy's boy or daddy's girl.  Manipulative, to the sense that they use proxies to get things done.  They avoid anything that requires effort and look for shortcuts.

I adapt quickly; when something does not work, I move on until I find a method that works, then reinforce it in multiple ways.  I am extremely thorough in my approach.  The validity and efficacy of learning hold the fore of my teaching methodologies.

I never start with sheet music, but introduce it gradually in the lesson, until the student can do it without my aid; I have explained previously, that if a student struggles in the lesson with my help, then they will likely struggle a lot worse at home.  Once they understand what they need to do, I set tasks to reinforce it at home (if it is applicable; that being if appropriate for the student).

This person plays games; many parent's are oblivious to the lengths thier child will go to, to get their own way.  One example:

This student, would tell their mother, a heavy twisted version of the lesson, forgetting that their father was present, and, that i document everything in a journal and could relay events when prompted.

They adapted, next time, they asked dad to fetch something from the car, so he woudl leave the room, next time stating "but Daddy, you were not there, you were at the car". 

Next lesson, they 'forgot' their journal, and tried the same thing.

Scary behavior for a seven year old.

Flash forward two years, they are now nine.  This student will ask questions to deliberately digress lessons to tangents so they would avoid actually playing the piano.

The most recent lesson, they have obviously started feeling more bold, by contradicting my sentences while I am saying them, interrupting, talking over or arguing points; from a psychological stand point, obviously trying to assert them self, challenging me.

This student has no interest in playing piano, and instead gets pleasure from the manipulative game they are playing with me.

If the parents are aware of the situation and happy to pay where's the beef?

The reason why I am a successful and sought after teacher is because monetary income is not what drives my practice.  As much as 'phoning it in' would still get me paid; I would much rather practise or give my time to another student who has been waiting for lessons.

However, can you see my point, I am posting on an internet forum about said student, when I should be relaxing and going about my day.

[hardy_practice]

Ah, you're after self respect?  That's an expensive commodity.

[vaniii]

Ah, you're after self respect?  That's an expensive commodity.

Right.  As I said, I was not looking for a solution, I just wanted to be heard.

Now I have.

[keypeg]

(okay ill bite)

... asking how to read music, then disregard every piece of advice given, because "I don't believe you".

Four years, and this student cannot read notes from 'middle-C' to 'G' evenly, without error, in a five finger position.

They choose to ignore my instruction, and every lesson is met with, "whats that note again?" .. to which I respond, this is "middle-C", proceeding to show them on the piano.  They leave the lessons being able to do it, they go home, do everything but practice what I have asked, then return and say ... "I don't get it!"....

My teacher calls that Groundhog day, as in the movie.  "A weatherman finds himself inexplicably living the same day over and over again." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107048/
  It's demoralizing and energy-draining for a teacher. 

[dogperson]

Vaniii,
I'm not sure what else I, as a student, can add, except this:   I  hope we will all take your heartfelt advice personally not to  become 'that one student'.   To have a teacher that doesn't want to just collect a paycheck but cares about a student's  progress is a priceless gift which we should all appreciate.  

Thanks for caring.

[dcstudio]

(okay ill bite)

... asking how to read music, then disregard every piece of advice given, because "I don't believe you".

Four years, and this student cannot read notes from 'middle-C' to 'G' evenly, without error, in a five finger position.

They choose to ignore my instruction, and every lesson is met with, "whats that note again?" .. to which I respond, this is "middle-C", proceeding to show them on the piano.  They leave the lessons being able to do it, they go home, do everything but practice what I have asked, then return and say ... "I don't get it!"

Well of course you don't, you have had one thing to remember for four years and chosen to ignore it.  Instead mashing keys, and 'pretending' to play the piano.  Meanwhile, students who started after you are now exploring junior cannon-repertoire, knowing all major scales and can sight-read most of the pieces put in front of them.  Fact is, this student is one student in my week who is consuming all of me, and I have had enough.

I can't be alone in having 'that one' ...

I am urging students to not be 'that one' ... listen to you teacher or find another one, it is infuriating.

Hey I know that student! They are frustrating as f#&% aren't they. Geez...it's like come on we have gone over this a million times. Lol. Mom always puts them in all the contests too. Sometimes I truly think they actually enjoy frustrating me.   I have through the years reached a couple of them whose parents simply would not give in.  Boys usually. When they get to be 13 or so and they realize that girls are impressed by piano players they can suddenly evolve into decent players.  The two that come to mind became my longest running students.  One played the Chopin Eb nocturne and the other played the Rach C# minor prelude for their final recitals before going away to college.

but these two were rare exceptions ...

I hear you vanii but sometimes they do turn around. Do some zen meditation and just suffer through the lesson and pick up your check

[timothy42b]

I am not quick to recommend a teacher divest of a student.  (This is a topic that recurs, also.)

But in this case it is clear you have an adversary relationship.  I don't see how either of you is likely to benefit from further engagement.  Can you find a way to gracefully separate?  Four years of pushing on a toothache is enough for most people. 

[outin]

Just to let you know: Being smart does not mean one cannot have some cognitive deficit. Playing games can be a way of hiding it. But he could also just dislike learning piano the usual way or even not be interested at all. If so he should be allowed to quit lessons. Why should he behave any differently if he does not want to take lessons? Seems like his smarter than his parents, which can be a bit difficult. I think dropping him would be a favor to them all. If he later realized he actually wants to learn piano he'll find a way.

[yewtree]

 My old piano tutor told me to strictly follow the fingering, but  sometimes I have found an alternative solution if I find it awkward, and it works out just as good.    But on the whole I do strictly  adhere to correct fingering.

[keypeg]

My old piano tutor told me to strictly follow the fingering, but  sometimes I have found an alternative solution if I find it awkward, and it works out just as good.    But on the whole I do strictly  adhere to correct fingering.

Many teachers will encourage a student to think about fingering, experiment with fingering, and understand fingering.  If you found the original fingering awkward, they would explore that with you.  The fingering put into a score by the editors may be good only for the hands of that editor, or it may even be wrong.