Bach - Invention #4

[deandeblock]

Hi all,

after a looooong trip to Brazil I am back home and back at it with the piano


First up is the fourth Invention by Bach in D minor. Is it any good?

[chomaninoff1]

Hey! Nice work and thank you for posting your playing. I think you should definitely speed this up. We want the melody to go somewhere! Also, that trill sounds a little lame at this speed lol. I would try to also add in some dynamic changes to make it a bit more interesting. Work on phrasing! Best of luck. 

[deandeblock]

Hey! Nice work and thank you for posting your playing. I think you should definitely speed this up. We want the melody to go somewhere! Also, that trill sounds a little lame at this speed lol. I would try to also add in some dynamic changes to make it a bit more interesting. Work on phrasing! Best of luck. 

Thank you for listening chomaninoff.

  Yes, I agree with you that it could be faster but my teacher always tells me that I play too fast - too soon. So, I have been working a bit on the touch in particular... Someday I'll get the speed I want 

[j_tour]

Thanks for sharing -- nice quality video and audio, too.  Certainly better than I've been able to get.  

One of my favorite of the 2-part inventions, probably along with a lot of people.

The tempo is one thing -- I like it rather brisk, but I don't see why it couldn't be played differently.  Well, take some perspective, also from Bach's pedagogy works, I think Gould's studio recording of the C minor sinfonia is perversely slow, whereas Angela Hewitt's is...quite a bit faster, again, almost to another extreme.  So, even among the titans there's huge variation.

But the phrasing is another.  I don't want to sound too critical, and maybe the dirge-like tempo is getting in my way of hearing the lines, but I'm not hearing EXACTLY where each line begins and concludes.  And, to me, that includes the lines in simple eighth-notes -- I believe they should be phrased as lines as well, i.e., not all staccato, nor all legato.

Perhaps someone would sing the piece the way you played it, each line separately of course, but I doubt it.

[deandeblock]

Thanks for sharing -- nice quality video and audio, too.  Certainly better than I've been able to get.  

One of my favorite of the 2-part inventions, probably along with a lot of people.

The tempo is one thing -- I like it rather brisk, but I don't see why it couldn't be played differently.  Well, take some perspective, also from Bach's pedagogy works, I think Gould's studio recording of the C minor sinfonia is perversely slow, whereas Angela Hewitt's is...quite a bit faster, again, almost to another extreme.  So, even among the titans there's huge variation.

But the phrasing is another.  I don't want to sound too critical, and maybe the dirge-like tempo is getting in my way of hearing the lines, but I'm not hearing EXACTLY where each line begins and concludes.
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Hi j_tour,

That's interesting what you've said. The first time I listened to this recording I also thought it was not clear where each line begins and starts, and I have to tell you I don't even have an idea how to fix this :S

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And, to me, that includes the lines in simple eighth-notes -- I believe they should be phrased as lines as well, i.e., not all staccato, nor all legato.
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What do you mean by this? not all staccato nor legato? Should it be mixed up or?

[j_tour]

Hi j_tour,

That's interesting what you've said. The first time I listened to this recording I also thought it was not clear where each line begins and starts, and I have to tell you I don't even have an idea how to fix this :S

What do you mean by this? not all staccato nor legato? Should it be mixed up or?

Ad punctum 1, I think it's clear that the main idea has a start and an end -- so, just for the first point, you have the one line in sixteenth notes starting at D.  That's probably sung in one breath by a singer with powerful lungs, but if it were me, I'd probably stop for a second at the lowest C#.  In other words, phrasing.  Not that there is "one phrasing," but that there is "a phrase" -- that is the idea you need to communicate.  It's not some alien tongue you are translating to humans, but just like a linguistic sentence, it can be told in several ways while its unity perseveres.  I'm not a composer, but I think that was probably Bach's point in writing this one -- one idea, spit it out, play it pretty, and keep playing and "inventing."  You may wish to compare to Scarlatti's K1 "sonata" as well -- also in D minor, and not difficult for your level. 

Ad 2, I mean that, when I play this -- and it's one of the 2-part inventions I do actually enjoy playing -- I hear the "boring old little eighth note" little "accompaniments" as their own little lines, and I enjoy putting some character into them.  I can't tell you how I'd do it, because it depends on my mood, and I play it differently every time, but there should be a little life in those lines as well.  

[deandeblock]

That explains a lot! Thanks for taking the time..

[j_tour]

Well, that's all right.  Just a half-drunk piano player not busy on a Saturday -- I guess you get what you pay for!  It being Sunday, the piece kind of has inspired me a little bit to think about when I get home testing out my very limited tablet+built-in-mic (no, not firing up the mixer and cramming an SM57 against the grill of a PA speaker, just easy), maybe like do some illustrations.  I don't know.  I'd like to go to mass at 17h30, old habits, but given that I'm on my sixth beer I probably should someday think about not doing that.

All hat and no cattle, I guess, but I hope you keep up with the piece -- just because I haven't heard it at that tempo doesn't mean there it couldn't be.

Can I ask you what your thoughts are, really, about the invention?  I'm really having a hard time hearing the motif as anything but rather brisk, and while you've said you're mostly interested in just the mechanics, I just can't quite figure it out.  I assume you've heard, in this day of YouTube and so forth, pretty much all the main people play this one, so, do you have a favorite?

IMHO, sometimes it can be easier to approach a technical problem from the (rightly) derided "ultimate result" angle.  It's not the best way, I know, but to draw a parallel to problem-solving in logic (I'm thinking of the nice little book by mathematician Pólya, *How To Solve It* which is still relevant to logic and other disciplines, probably, although as far as I know, Pólya was only interested professionally in mathematics), it can sometimes be solved by looking from a different perspective.

[deandeblock]

Hi j_tour,


I'm sorry for the very late reply!


Yes, I have been looking on YT and I found a version which I like from Walter Gieseking:

=197


I do understand your comments about the phrasing of my playing. But honestly, I (and my teacher) never considered that the going up and then down of the motif should be two separate phrases.

When I started learning this piece, my teacher played it for me and it was more in a slow, singing style, much like my playing probably, so I presumed this was how it was meant to be played. She was quite happy with the final result (unlike my more recent playing of the ninth invention)

Me too would like this with a brisk tempo, but I'm afraid my technical abilities are not there yet.


I would love to hear your recording of this piece


Thanks

[j_tour]

Hi j_tour,


I'm sorry for the very late reply!

No worries -- I'd forgotten entirely about this thread, although I did play this one not too long ago and remembered vaguely I'd given some advice about how I like the LH to have their own character, little phrases in their own right.

I think we're both right -- while very brisk is nice, there's not any reason it can't be done at whatever tempo sounds good.

Well, I'm officially under fire to try to figure out a good place to balance my tablet on the keys at home one of these days and show you what I was talking about, with some vocal comments while playing if I can manage it.

Well, don't hold your breath -- I'm really lazy, but you put the idea back in my head, so there's a good chance I'll get wasted and end up package-taping the tablet to the ceiling and calling it good.
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Well, that was a little too much about me ranting, but I do have just an idle question:  do you find that your work on scales helped or hindered your ability to trade the motif in this Invention between hands, for the LH part?  I remember it being difficult, while I could run the scales at whenever that was, to feel comfortable using the fragments of scales to carve out the motif in the LH.

Just something that popped into mind -- no right or wrong answer.  

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ETA

But honestly, I (and my teacher) never considered that the going up and then down of the motif should be two separate phrases.

Oh, I see.  No, that wasn't what I was trying to say -- I was just talking about the little eighth-note "accompanying" parts, in some editions even marked staccato, or slurred staccato.

I was just saying since it's only two voices one way I amuse myself is to try to play those little accompaniment chordal outlines in various ways, as though someone were singing them and trying to make a little musical joke or serious statement.

Yeah, that would probably have to be demonstrated, so that gives me further reason to make an effort at home to try to show.  I'm not some master of piano, but at least I can give the idea.