What level is Valentina Lisitsa in ?

[eliza1976]

How does she practise the piano ? Oh my. She plays Chopin etudes in such an ease that i reckon she just closed her eyes and her fingers run by themselves !

[visitor]

Over level 9000!!

[themeandvariation]

the money making level.

[dogperson]

Hi
Valentina is a concert pianist, so there is no level assigned.  Interested in how she practices?  You can do a Google search:  videos; search term:  Valentina Lisitsa practicing, and watch.  Concert pianists make playing look effortless, but it does take a lot of work (even for them) to develop the skills and the repertoire.   it was not an effortless process! 

[rmbarbosa]

But there`s a thing Valentina lacks: a lot of technique, but she has no "soul"...
And "soul" also belongs to technique...

[toughbo]

I agree, rmbarbosa. She has the facility to play anything she wants but her interpretations are usually quite dull musically. It would probably be easier to hear if she directed an orchestra the same way she plays the piano. I suspect a lot of people are just blinded by her flying fingers

[danielo]

I have to agree about the lack of soul in her playing.....it's admirable technically but that's all you can say about it. I would not choose to go and see her in concert. Boris Berezovsky is coming to London and although he also divides opinion I would pay to watch and listen to him play. Not so Valentina....

[mjames]

"Soul in playing" is a worthless metric. It would be more accurate to say that you just don't appreciate her approach to music.

[mrcreosote]

What I've read about her technique.  She vehemently denies it is Russian School (and NO Hannon) and also not "the other one" (sorry I can't remember it's name.  Her teachers tried to change her technique and she refused.  At the highest level, it seems that everyone has their own "solution" which is complex based on physiology, genetics, and 100 other factors.  I think she has the most graceful "hand art" of all playing.  I love to watch her hands.

No soul?  I disagree.  She is not Lang Lang and she is not Horowitz.  She plays with a naivete that I find endearing.  But then, I'm a Philistine. 

She has an "It" factor and I simply like to watch her perform - especially her hands of course.  Martha, Zlata, Khatia, Yuja are obviously favorites of mine.  Horowitz, Rubinstein, Cliburn are my guy core with a special note about Hamelin: he may well be the most advanced mentally and technically, but I believe he is living in higher dimension musically - just look at the insanely difficulty modern stuff he plays - it's mind boggling.  Everything from Ragtime to well, you name it - if you can name it, he doesn't waste his time with it.  If you've never heard it before and it gives you a migraine, yes he plays that stuff.  And I'll never forgive him for that snide remark about pianists with small hands...

One other amazing factoid about practicing.  Yuja Wang says once she learns a piece, she cannot "practice it" - the process damages the learned piece if you will.  She said she is trying to figure out how to practice without the damage.  (I suspect it interferes with her exceptional memory.  Perhaps creating a litany of practice versions that simply confuse the learned version and use up memory resources.)

[matthew from florida]

I have to agree about the lack of soul in her playing.....it's admirable technically but that's all you can say about it. I would not choose to go and see her in concert. Boris Berezovsky is coming to London and although he also divides opinion I would pay to watch and listen to him play. Not so Valentina....

Lucky to have Berezovsky in town... or anyone for that matter. Valentina was in my area last year, of course I went and it was well worth it. Met her afterwards and she is, like Anna Fedorova who I also met in the past month, a very humble person with talent unmeasurable by "levels". Yes, "soul" or "musicality" is not her strongest point but anyone that can play one tenth as good as her deserves nothing but respect.

[patronus]

   Personally, I believe that her playing is excellent in technical standpoint but lacking in emotion. Even showing it to my friend who has no expertise in music whatsoever she says Valentina plays "like a robot" and "has no emotion." I prefer to listen to Horowitz personally, maybe because he interprets things so much like myself. Sometimes Kissin gets it right too, although he plays stuff too fast sometimes.

   Then on the other side of the spectrum there's Lang Lang, who I believe has too much "showy-offy" moves but also feels lacking in soul.


Well, back to the original question I don't know what these levels specifically stand for.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Everyone who says she has no soul is just a hater.  And she plays with way more "soul" than all of you guys hating on her.

Yall literally have no idea what you're talking about 

[patronus]

Wow that was harsh. I'm not saying she plays bad or anything, just from my eyes she plays without the expression I like. Saying she has no soul is kind of over the top, but really you can see the difference between her and somebody that I like to hear, like Horowitz. Really, I don't just listen to piano to see absolute perfection, if you want to hear that let a robot play.

If you don't believe me just listen to these recordings of the Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12:
Lisitsa:

Horowitz:

See the difference? Horowitz sounds so much more mellow and "musical" while it feels almost as Valentina is pounding on the keys and not putting herself into it. While her performance was nevertheless perfect technique-wise it's the emotion put into it that makes it music, not to mention it was too fast. Yes I know No. 12 has a 160 metronome marking but that doesn't mean you turn into a human metronome. It turns out that Chopin lived in the Romantic Period where tempo changes and variations were acceptable. In fact, that's the reason why I like Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, etc., even though they are different people with different thoughts and musical expression. And it's sad to see all of that different expression all these composers thought of just not going through Lisitsa. 

[mjames]

Once again, soul/emotion is a worthless metric. All you're basically saying (and the rest of you) is that she "lacks emotion" because her approach to music differs from certified greats like Horowitz. Utterly ridiculous. I think it has more to do with your bias against performers that represent the "popular culture" aspect of classical music like Lang Lang and Lisitsa. And I'm not just saying this to disagree with you, I actually found her Op. 25 no. 12 performance to be quite captivating. More-so than Horowitz's actually. Unlike science or mathematics, there is no right answer in music; isn't it awesome?

 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Wow that was harsh. I'm not saying she plays bad or anything, just from my eyes she plays without the expression I like. Saying she has no soul is kind of over the top, but really you can see the difference between her and somebody that I like to hear, like Horowitz. Really, I don't just listen to piano to see absolute perfection, if you want to hear that let a robot play.

If you don't believe me just listen to these recordings of the Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12:
Lisitsa:

Horowitz:

See the difference? Horowitz sounds so much more mellow and "musical" while it feels almost as Valentina is pounding on the keys and not putting herself into it. While her performance was nevertheless perfect technique-wise it's the emotion put into it that makes it music.

You can't put up two recordings and vaguely say that she plays like a robot without an explanation.

yeah they're different but it's silly to say she doesn't put in "emotion" in the music just because you don't like her artistic choices.

Right before she goes into the first C major section she does a little bit of ritard because that's the first key change and that's an important part to emphasize.  

When she goes into the first a flat major section, she goes from forte to piano.  It's written in the score that it's forte but when I played this I did the same artistic choice that she did.  I played softer and did a little bit of ritard because I felt like that was an important change of harmony.

Then when she goes to the lower register and she has those melodic figures, she plays it as a slightly slower tempo to milk out the melody because now you're in major (you started off in minor) and to bring out the contrast in harmony more, she slows down to sort of milk out the sweet melody.

This is the type of stuff you'll see in a masterclass on this piece.  You might not like her style, which is fine, but don't tell me she isn't "musical" that's just silly. 


EDIT:

I just read your edited post.

HUMAN METRONOME?!?!!!. You think THAT was metronomic playing?!?!
And by the way tempo changes and variation were accepted in ALL time periods, not just romantic.

[patronus]

@mjames Yes I would have to agree that I seem to like Horowitz's style much more than other pianists such as Lang Lang or Lisitsa. I can't say they aren't accomplished but I don't just don't like their styles. With that being said I actually like Kissin's style a bit.

Really, to clarify I don't think that you're wrong. It's really our opinions. To be honest though, I wasn't captivated at all by Lisitsa's performance and it would differ greatly from what I interpreted this Etude as. Again, just our opinions.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

@mjames Yes I would have to agree that I seem to like Horowitz's style much more than other pianists such as Lang Lang or Lisitsa. I can't say they aren't accomplished but I don't just don't like their styles. With that being said I actually like Kissin's style a bit.

Really, to clarify I don't think that you're wrong. It's really our opinions. To be honest though, I wasn't captivated at all by Lisitsa's performance and it would differ greatly from what I interpreted this Etude as. Again, just our opinions.

Yeah and that's fine to not like Lang Langs or lisitsas styles.

However to say that she plays this piece like a human metronome isn't an opinion that's just wrong.  Start a metro me at the moment she begins the piece and see what happens lol

[outin]

I always thought Horowitz was somewhat over rated. Don't especially like his recordings. Maybe he was more impressive live...

My biggest complain with Valentina is her general sound. It is lacking in tone quality which makes her playing sound boring. Maybe due to her preference of fluid and fast playing and learning repertoire fast.

I like pianists who can make each note they play sound meaningful...I don't think it's required to have "soul or emotion" to achieve that, it must be a combination of good ear, musical understanding and technical skill.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I always thought Horowitz was somewhat over rated. Don't especially like his recordings. Maybe he was more impressive live...

My biggest complain with Valentina is her general sound. It is lacking in tone quality which makes her playing sound boring. Maybe due to her preference of fluid and fast playing and learning repertoire fast.

I like pianists who can make each note they play sound meaningful...I don't think it's required to have "soul or emotion" to achieve that, it must be a combination of good ear, musical understanding and technical skill.

A lot of times you're at the mercy of the way the audio engineer records the piano.  I always thought the way it's recorded is just as important as the way it's being played.

[outin]

A lot of times you're at the mercy of the way the audio engineer records the piano.  I always thought the way it's recorded is just as important as the way it's being played.

Sometimes, but I listen to a lot of historical (=very poor) recordings and even on those my preferences on the pianists seem to be very clear. Also when listening to competitions where people play on the same piano and same sound quality, it's easy to tell the difference in their sound. It's the suddle differences in timing, balance and pedalling rather than the actual "tone" of the individual notes that makes the difference between the sound of pianists. Some pianists are capable of producing a wonderful world of overtones while others seem "flat".

I do realize that not everybody can hear those overtones and that may explain the differences in our perception of the playing.

[cuberdrift]

I classify her as a Level 8 out of 10.

Here's my thread explaining my own "Pianist Levels" system.

She's certainly a lot more well-known and better than a lot of professional concert pianists (Level 7's), but I feel I cannot put her in the same tier as Ashkenazy or Lazar Berman (Level 9's). A lot of people seem to criticize her playing for having "good technique" but "not enough emotion".

She's probably in the same tier as Lang Lang, Yuja Wang, and Buniatishvili.

Interestingly enough, I kind of recall the user rachmaninoff_forever saying that he has a crush on her (or something), even though she's kind of older than him.

[rmbarbosa]

in youtube, I heard Lisitska playing the Bach 2 voices inventions and... it was horrible! Too fast, too mechanic...
She likes to show her wonderful technik.
When I see some pianists playing, my first "look" is to the Music. With other pianists, the impression is like "look at me, look how well I play" and Music stays in a second plan. It is Lisitska case... and I dont like that...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Once again, soul/emotion is a worthless metric. All you're basically saying (and the rest of you) is that she "lacks emotion" because her approach to music differs from certified greats like Horowitz. Utterly ridiculous. I think it has more to do with your bias against performers that represent the "popular culture" aspect of classical music like Lang Lang and Lisitsa. And I'm not just saying this to disagree with you, I actually found her Op. 25 no. 12 performance to be quite captivating. More-so than Horowitz's actually. Unlike science or mathematics, there is no right answer in music; isn't it awesome?

 

.

[mjames]

Actually I disagree with 2017 me, there is a right answer in music; Chopin being far superior to Rachmaninoff.

[keypeg]

How does she practise the piano ? Oh my. She plays Chopin etudes in such an ease that i reckon she just closed her eyes and her fingers run by themselves !

This is in the student forum.  I don't think that the question you are asking can help you as a student.

"What level is she in?"  How can this help you as a student?
When you ask how she practises the piano, that could be a useful question, except that it's followed by the picture of her just closing her eyes etc.  Since she has finished her training essentially, how she practises may not be how you or I need to practise.  For example, as a student I still need to get certain skills which a professional already has - the professional uses the skills - I have to acquire them.  That changes how I practise.  Otoh, if she works on different sections, does analysis of what she is doing, problem solving, exercises of some kind.  That information on "how she practises" may indeed help you.
What is your goal in asking this?

[dogperson]

This is in the student forum.  I don't think that the question you are asking can help you as a student.

"What level is she in?"  How can this help you as a student?
When you ask how she practises the piano, that could be a useful question, except that it's followed by the picture of her just closing her eyes etc.  Since she has finished her training essentially, how she practises may not be how you or I need to practise.  For example, as a student I still need to get certain skills which a professional already has - the professional uses the skills - I have to acquire them.  That changes how I practise.  Otoh, if she works on different sections, does analysis of what she is doing, problem solving, exercises of some kind.  That information on "how she practises" may indeed help you.
What is your goal in asking this?

This Post is from March 2017, and the OP has not been online since June 2017.  It is not likely that you will find out the intent of the question at this point 

[keypeg]

This Post is from March 2017, and the OP has not been online since June 2017.  It is not likely that you will find out the intent of the question at this point 

I'm quite aware of that.  But people do come back unexpectedly, and others reading the question might have food for thought.  I saw the date when I wrote.

[pianoville]

Actually I disagree with 2017 me, there is a right answer in music; Chopin being far superior to Rachmaninoff.

Seems like someone hasn't listened to Rachs second sonata...

[keypeg]

Seems like someone hasn't listened to Rachs second sonata...

How does the idea of one composer being "better" than another, or one piece being "better" than the other help students in this student forum?  How does that relate to the question of what "level" Lisitsa is at?

[outin]

How does the idea of one composer being "better" than another, or one piece being "better" than the other help students in this student forum?  How does that relate to the question of what "level" Lisitsa is at?

If those are questions students like to ask and argue about, do you have a problem with that? It's STUDENT'S corner, not STUDY corner. 

And to your other question: I think you should know by now that threads get derailed and that's rather a rule than exception on internet forums...

[pianoville]

How does the idea of one composer being "better" than another, or one piece being "better" than the other help students in this student forum?  How does that relate to the question of what "level" Lisitsa is at?

I was just responding to mjames statement, I never stated that any composer is better than the other. And yes these discussions are kind of meaningless. But as outin said, this is students corner and not study corner!

[mjames]

Seems like someone hasn't listened to Rachs second sonata...

I have and it's crap compared to Chopin's 3rd Sonata.

[keypeg]

But as outin said, this is students corner and not study corner!

Yes, outin did say that.  And I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.  It is indeed a student's corner.  I'm a student, so I'm here to learn, and to help my fellow students learn.  That's what I thought a students' corner was about.  Maybe I had the concept wrong.  (I'm not being sarcastic - this is a statement.)

[ahinton]

"Soul in playing" is a worthless metric. It would be more accurate to say that you just don't appreciate her approach to music.

Be that as it may or may not, the fact remains that dullness is not; OK, it's in the ears of the beholders, of course but, as her playing has been described as dull on here before your post above, I think it fair to say that such a descriptor cannot reasonably be described as "worthless", even if it is one with which you and others may not necessarily agree where VL is concerned. She has a considerable (though not outstanding) facility at the keyboard (which is only one part of what can be called "technique"), but I happen to be one of those who finds her playing somewhat bland, although she does often play very fine pianos!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Everyone who says she has no soul is just a hater.  And she plays with way more "soul" than all of you guys hating on her.

Yall literally have no idea what you're talking about  

I would not be so presumptuous as to claim that VL "has no soul"; however, she reveals little of it in such of her playing as I have heard, which is another factor altogether.

Bests,

Alistair

[ahinton]

A lot of times you're at the mercy of the way the audio engineer records the piano.  I always thought the way it's recorded is just as important as the way it's being played.

That's true, of course but does not apply to live performances.

Best,

Alistair

[stevensk]

-Its always funny to hear the worlds least successful pianists critizice the worlds most successful pianists 

[dogperson]

Yes, outin did say that.  And I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.  It is indeed a student's corner.  I'm a student, so I'm here to learn, and to help my fellow students learn.  That's what I thought a students' corner was about.  Maybe I had the concept wrong.  (I'm not being sarcastic - this is a statement.)

 A student corner is for questions that are posted  by or interesting to students. It is not meant that  every thread needs to be limited to a 30 page discourse about theory. ‘Study’.   What might not be interesting to any of us personally as a student, would be interesting to another student  This thread has drifted into a discussion about composers, which I cannot imagine would not be of interest to some  students.  The original topic was about VL,  so a thread drift into a discussion about VL as a performer seems appropriate. ...  but I don’t think that any of us has been appointed as a monitor for what is an appropriate drift.   Indeed, each of us thinks our own off-topic drifts  are appropriate and we tend to think that the off-topic drifts by others are not.  

[pianoville]

I have and it's crap compared to Chopin's 3rd Sonata.

What makes you believe it's "crap"?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Seems like someone hasn't listened to Rachs second sonata...

The first sonata is better

And Chopin 3 is cliche and boring mjames

[bernadette60614]

Despite this question being a year old, my reply would be:

At a level high enough that she can be a concert performer.

[ahinton]

-Its always funny to hear the worlds least successful pianists critizice the worlds most successful pianists 

Well, that doesn't apply to me, since I am not a pianist at all!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

The first sonata is better

And Chopin 3 is cliche and boring mjames

The comparative quality of Rachmaninoff's two marvellous sonatas and Chopin's third is meaningless; apples and oranges, and all that.

Best,

Alistair

[keypeg]

The comparative quality of Rachmaninoff's two marvelous sonatas and Chopin's third is meaningless; apples and oranges, and all that.

That was sort of my reaction.  I can't relate to that part of the discussion at any level.

[outin]

The comparative quality of Rachmaninoff's two marvellous sonatas and Chopin's third is meaningless; apples and oranges, and all that.

How so? I for example am allergic to apples and don't really like oranges...so definitely not meaningless!

[ahinton]

How so? I for example am allergic to apples and don't really like oranges...so definitely not meaningless!

I'm not fond of apples myself but that's not the point; one might as well seek to compare the organ music of Reger with the piano music of either. Chopin is Chopin and Rachmaninoff is Rachmaninoff and there's so much to celebrate in both.

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Level "sufficiently high that people have interminable online arguments about what it actually is"  

[ahinton]

Level "sufficiently high that people have interminable online arguments about what it actually is"  

Nice one! As I mentioned above, however, she does often play very nice pianos!

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

She's under Richard Clayderman level

Her playing level is comparable with the average Asian piano student ^____^

[ahinton]

She's under Richard Clayderman level

Her playing level is comparable with the average Asian piano student ^____^

Quite unreasonable on both counts; firstly, there's very little that could be "under Richard Clayderman level" and, secondly, "the average Asian piano student" is not an example of such as there is; the racism implicit in your latter statement is likewise unwelcome (assuming that you were being serious)...

Best,

Alistair