strengthening 5th finger

[thomas82]

Hi,

To strengthen the 5th finger,apart from hanon exercises and keep repeatedly hitting the key with my fifth finger,are there any other tips?

I have also bought myself a kettler finger grip so that i can actually work out when i am free in my office during my working time.
Does this help or am i wasting my time?

[adodd81802]

RE Grip = certainly wasting your time. if all if your fingers can singularly press down a piano key, you already have all the strength you need, what you don't have is the refine control over your little finger, because you have rarely needed it in everyday life....

As a purpose in every day life, it's simply an assisting gripper for objects, a door handle, a toothbrush, a cup handle... complimenting your 3/4 fingers. You will find that if you tried to tap the table hard with any of your fingers you can tap just as hard with any of them, and most(not 4th) of them independently (without raising other fingers)

When at the piano,Rhythm practice helps, it gives bursts of speed to your fingers which then over time helps you control and refine. I can explain further if required.

If you're looking for exercises you can do away from the piano, i'd say this - use your index finger as a guide, and try the following. (Index finger because it is most likely the fastest finger)

with all fingers on the table, tap your index finger slowly, then increase the speed at which you're tapping until it's as fast as you can do it in a controlled manner.

Also practice dynamics loud taps typically raising your finger high, and quiet taps, slow and loud, quick and quiet e.t.c.

In this time you should focus on what you're telling your finger to do, what you are seeing it doing, how it feels and how your finger changes what it does when the speed changes. We are trying to teach the brain or 'you' to actively think about what you are doing.

Once you see how your index finger works, try to replicate it with your little finger. use a metronome (phone app) if possible, to ensure control. I find the little, fast and quiet taps the hardest to do.

Lastly and this i think helps quite a lot, is when practicing with a metronome, try the other way around, that is instead of tapping on the beat, try hitting the air on the beat, that is, rise your finger quickly to heat the beat and then bring it down. Hold it down as long as possible before trying to raise it at the last split second. If hitting air doesn't work, you can always hold something about your finger for the finger to tap upwards, e.g. the cover of your piano or something.

There are 2 things we are trying to teach our finger for speed when playing the piano; to come down as quickly as possible and to come up as quickly as possible.

Strength does not equal speed where are fingers are concerned

[feddera]

100% disagree that it's only a coordination problem. It might be for some people, but in many cases it's not. The problem with hanon exercises(book 1 at least) is that they're not hard enough on the hands and fingers to really develop them physically. Exercises on a guitar has helped me a lot more.

[outin]

100% disagree that it's only a coordination problem. It might be for some people, but in many cases it's not. The problem with hanon exercises(book 1 at least) is that they're not hard enough on the hands and fingers to really develop them physically. Exercises on a guitar has helped me a lot more.

I agree that it is not always just a coordination problem, some peope do have structurally weak fingers (often caused by hypermobility). But HARD exercises don't do much to strengthen them for piano playing. It's more about finding ways to compensate by other parts of the hand whenever possible and finding good hand positions. The only exercise for pinky I have found useful (outside playing of course) is the one "teaching" it to move more independently from the knuckle without it collapsing.

[feddera]

Have you tried? I had the opposite problem (lack of flexibility), so I'm not sure if the exercises I did would help you. They did help me a lot with collapsing knuckles though, so they might. Hard exercises for the fingers has really improved my piano playing for the past two years, so to say they won't help anyone is just wrong.

[outin]

Have you tried? I had the opposite problem (lack of flexibility), so I'm not sure if the exercises I did would help you. They did help me a lot with collapsing knuckles though, so they might. Hard exercises for the fingers has really improved my piano playing for the past two years, so to say they won't help anyone is just wrong.

Tried what? Playing the guitar?
Did that in my teens

Seriously I have tried EVERY possible exercixe I have found to stop the last two joints from giving away under pressure but nothing ever made any difference. There are no muscles in that area of the finger and the missing support tissue just isn't going to grow there.

Not sure I understand what you mean by hard exercise? It sounds like something not very healthy...may be good for flexibility in sturdy fingers, but with weak joints there's a danger of real damage.

[feddera]

With a hard exercise for the hands, I basically just mean somehting that makes you really feel a stretch between fingers, or something that you cannot do for very long without getting sore. You obvioulsy shouldn't overdo it of course.

If you still have a guitar, you could try these:

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[anamnesis]

Tried what? Playing the guitar?
Did that in my teens

Seriously I have tried EVERY possible exercixe I have found to stop the last two joints from giving away under pressure but nothing ever made any difference. There are no muscles in that area of the finger and the missing support tissue just isn't going to grow there.

Not sure I understand what you mean by hard exercise? It sounds like something not very healthy...may be good for flexibility in sturdy fingers, but with weak joints there's a danger of real damage.

In many cases that don't involve extreme pathology, hyper-mobility in those areas can be overcome.  If you can do it at the table top without the added complication of the piano keys, then it is very feasible.  

If you can, then it really is a matter of coordination and timing.  Extremely expert timing, concentration (particularly during the learning of passages), and proprioception that otherwise normal people can get away with not having. It's essentially the equivalent of only being able to measure things using the inch mark on the ruler versus being able to do it at the millimeter mark (and in multiple spatial dimensions simultaneously), (with a a parallel analog in time that is just as important).  

People severely underestimate the precision at much this can be done, and the fact that this actually be trained.  

[outin]

In many cases that don't involve extreme pathology, hyper-mobility in those areas can be overcome.  If you can do it at the table top without the added complication of the piano keys, then it is very feasible.

Nope, some of my joints have almost no stability and cannot hold any weight. That does not mean I cannot play with the finger, I just need to be careful with the finger positions. That is a matter of coordination of course and that can be learned.

[outin]

With a hard exercise for the hands, I basically just mean somehting that makes you really feel a stretch between fingers, or something that you cannot do for very long without getting sore. You obvioulsy shouldn't overdo it of course.

If you still have a guitar, you could try these:

[/youtube]

My fingers don't get sore. Never did. And I have to strech all the time because I have such a small reach. I get all the exercise I need from playing the piano I think

We are probably not talking about the same thing. For me finger strentgh means the structural strength and stability of the finger itself.  What moves the fingers are the muscles elsewhere and they are usually strong enough for the piano, what needs to be trained is the coordination and efficiency so that one does not over use them.

[feddera]

I think we mean kind of the same thing. For me, the limited downward range of motion between the 4th and 5th fingers would make them feel weak. When playing the 5th finger downward, it felt like the 4th finger was trying to pull it back up, kind of like playing with a rubber band attached to the finger.

Did you try the exercise? Especially the finger gym one, which is just doing hammer-ons and pull-offs up and down the strings with every finger combination possible. If you can do that with both hands without feeling sore at all, then you have much more developed hands than me haha. Also, you said you used to play guitar. Do your left hand feel any different from your right hand on the piano?

[outin]

I think we mean kind of the same thing. For me, the limited downward range of motion between the 4th and 5th fingers would make them feel weak. When playing the 5th finger downward, it felt like the 4th finger was trying to pull it back up, kind of like playing with a rubber band attached to the finger.

Did you try the exercise? Especially the finger gym one, which is just doing hammer-ons and pull-offs up and down the strings with every finger combination possible. If you can do that with both hands without feeling sore at all, then you have much more developed hands than me haha. Also, you said you used to play guitar. Do your left hand feel any different from your right hand on the piano?

No, unfortunately I don't have a guitar anymore so cannot try those exercises. I looked at the first video. I don't think such exercises do much for piano playing except for the ability to curl the fingers. And it's easy to overcurl which means one is overusing the forearm muscles. Piano playing is most efficient when the small muscles in the palm do most of the work and you also have gravity to assist you.

It is normal for the 5th and 4th finger to move together. We are not talking about the same thing. I don't have issues with the downward motion on the finger, but problems with the stability of the two interphalangeal joints. This is what is sometimes called being double jointed (but is actually hypermobility). All my fingers are more or less double jointed, but the RH pinky is really bad. The joints snap and "turn over". Falling on it the wrong way can be really nasty.  

What is important for playing the piano is the ability to swing the 5th finger down from the knuckle without tensing it and this is something one can practice away from the piano. Keep your other hand finger under the knuckle to prevent it from collapsing at first. When you use the small muscles in the palm, you are not hindered by the issue of 4th and 5th sharing a tendon to the forearm muscles. You can practice the 4th this way too. This way you can gain some finger independence in playing even when the fingers are not really independent.

My left hand has a larger span and the pinky and thumb are less double jointed, so I consider it my better hand. But I don't think it has anything to do with playing guitar...that was 30 years ago

[feddera]

I consider both flexibility between fingers and the structural strength of the knuckles to be a part of a developed hand. So at least what you're saying is part of what I'm saying. I use the word "developed" rather than "strong", because it's not really about muscular strength. In any case, it's also separate from pure coordination.

I'm not so sure your guitar playing had no effect on your left hand, even if it was 30 years ago. What happened to me, was that I had randomly done those exercises and played some simple pieces on the guitar, on and off for many years. I then suddenly noticed how much more developed my left hand had become, compared to my right. So I turned the guitar upside down, and started doing the same things with my right hand. Perhaps about 15-20 minutes every day. I'm not going to try to explain anatomically why that helped, just note that my HT scales went from 120 to 160 bpm+, after being stuck on 120 for many years.

My main point in threads like this isn't that everyone should do excactly those exercises. It's just that it helped me so much to start developing the physical attributes of the hands as such away from the piano, and this is something that is almost never suggested on these forums. "Everything is about coordination" is just not true.

[outin]

I'm not so sure your guitar playing had no effect on your left hand, even if it was 30 years ago.

I was never any good and practiced very little. I played the flute longer, so that might have had more effect on my finger dexterity.

But still, I believe much of it is also from genes. My fingers are not strong or fast,  but my fingers and hands have always been very flexible. I can do some fingerings my teacher cannot and she's an extremely skillfull pianist.

"Everything is about coordination" is just not true.

And as I said before I agree...just maybe for different reasons

[anamnesis]

Nope, some of my joints have almost no stability and cannot hold any weight. That does not mean I cannot play with the finger, I just need to be careful with the finger positions. That is a matter of coordination of course and that can be learned.

So would it be difficult to do this?   

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[outin]

So would it be difficult to do this?   

&t=73

To do what exactly? The walking exercise?

Many knowledgeable people including my teacher of 6 years have tried to "cure" my RH pinky, but it's pretty hopeless. Understanding it's limitations however enables me to play with it reasonably well. I can compare it with the left, all sort of exercises I can do with the left do not work on the right. So excuse me if I am a bit tired of trying to explain in words how it behaves (or rather doesn't), you'd really need to see it in action to understand.

[mjames]

Ignore everyone here, buy/rent/borrow an edition of Chopin's etudes, and pick op. 10 no. 2. Problem solved.

[outin]

Ignore everyone here, buy/rent/borrow an edition of Chopin's etudes, and pick op. 10 no. 2. Problem solved.

Right! I started on it after 2 months of self study. Did wonders to my playing...











Made me go to a piano teacher 

[mjames]

Right! I started on it after 2 months of self study. Did wonders to my playing...











Made me go to a piano teacher  

I'm assuming he's not a beginner lol, I don't know why you would focus on strengthening individual fingers in the beginning. Your finger strength should naturally improve as you learn piano, unless you have some weird physical issues or something.

[outin]

I'm assuming he's not a beginner lol, I don't know why you would focus on strengthening individual fingers in the beginning. Your finger strength should naturally improve as you learn piano, unless you have some weird physical issues or something.

I agree.

But that is one of my favorite etudes and I wouldn't want to reduce it to a finger exercise