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Topic: What would you think of someone who says "the fingerings are all wrong"?  (Read 6618 times)

Offline ranjit

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I recently learned Bach's Prelude in C major, on my own. When I showed it to a person, he said "the fingerings are all wrong", without commenting anything about musicality, etc. He teaches piano (not to an advanced level, say up to grade 4-5), and taught me for a month or two.

As far as I could see, my fingering wasn't really controversial (All I could think of was that I fingered some of the left hand thirds 4-2). Also, I did not make any mistakes in the notes. After all that, it hurt to be told that the fingerings were wrong, without mention of anything else. :(

This leads me to the question: How seriously are fingerings considered in the musical world? If there isn't an issue with the sound produced, or a possibility of injury, is the fingering used that big of a deal?
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Offline hardy_practice

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A mistake with a fingering is more important than a mistake with a note.  Fingerings often embody important, but subtle, rhythmic information.
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Offline ranjit

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A mistake with a fingering is more important than a mistake with a note.  Fingerings often embody important, but subtle, rhythmic information.

Wouldn't that suggest that there is only one *correct* fingering for any given passage? As far as I know, there are usually several different ways to finger a passage.

I've read that Chopin notated specific fingerings, which were often unconventional at that time, to achieve specific results. In such a scenario, clearly, the fingerings would contain crucial information.

However, in the case of Bach, or Mozart, the suggested fingerings were not notated by the composers themselves, but rather added later on in certain versions. The version I had did not have them.

Also, after a point, doesn't it become rather obvious as to which fingerings work, at least for simple passages? Unless it is specifically targeted at beginners, sheet music very often does not contain fingering suggestions. Surely, the players are supposed to work them out themselves.

Offline iansinclair

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Simply put, there is no such thing as a "correct" fingering.  For any composer.  That said, however, fingering suggestions should never be taken lightly, as they suggest that for someone -- and, in the case of really good teachers or editors, a number of someones -- the suggested fingering works well.  However, what works well for someone may not work well for others.

A problem arises in teaching, though, where a student may work out a fingering on their own which works for a specific tempo in a specific place but does not allow, or allows only with difficulty, advances in technique or tempo.  On the other hand, the student's fingering may -- for one reason or other -- work better for them than a more conventional fingering.  In these situations, it is necessary for the teacher to analyse why the student's fingering is working, and then whether it is the better fingering for the student.  This takes a pretty advanced teacher.
Ian

Offline hardy_practice

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It would be worth you reading what CPE Bach has to say about fingering in his book the Versuch.
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Offline cardeno

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It all depends if you are learning to play as a professional or as an amateur. If as a professional you`ll have to follow your teachers instructions but as an amateur you`ll learn a piece much quicker if you take the bother of fingering the piece yourself leaving the fingering already printed if you find it reasonable for your ability and hand size or substituting it for your own.

I don`t believe what the pundits say about not repeating a note with the same finger or using an awkward fingering because the piece will sound much better. If timing, rhythm and dynamics are ok nobody on this earth will note whether you struck a note with finger 1 or 3.

There is a lot of snobbery in classical piano playing which you don`t find in popular music. If you find that somebody plays a piece beautifully, what matters if he used different fingering?. Most people will never notice the difference judging by the majority of the population who can`t tell the difference between the racket a pop musician makes or Chopin`s "Doppio movimento" of Nocturne op 48 N 1

Offline timothy42b

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Simply put, there is no such thing as a "correct" fingering.  For any composer. 

This is true.

However, in this case the composer is Bach.  His music is extremely dependent on efficient fingering and it isn't always intuitive, at least for me.  I've played that prelude, with my own fingering, and then with the suggested fingering of a friend, and it made the difficult parts easy. 
Tim

Offline toughbo

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Can you provide a copy of that fingering? Would be interesting to see.

Online keypeg

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What would I think?   If this person seems to know a thing or two, I would ask him "why do you say the fingerings are wrong - can you show me?"  Notice I said "show" and not "explain".  If he is knowledgeable, he should be able to show me how my fingering makes things awkward and more difficult.  I would be interested whether he had something to offer which will make things easier for me.  Perhaps he can give me a greater understanding of how fingering works.
If this person is an ivory tower type of know-it-all, or if he is basing himself on limited ideas that were passed down to him, who thinks "right fingering" is a thing that is written in books or created by some "authority" due to a venerated name, that would be reasoning I can dismiss.  Unless, again, he can *show*.

What might I feel?  I might be the kind of person who is proud of all the hard work that I just did, and want to have recognition and maybe a bit of praise or even admiration for how musical and lovely my playing is.  Or just that it is an achievement just to have played it.  Therefore I might feel disappointed, deflated, or insulted.
Otoh, I might be starved for tools and knowledge, and appreciate this kind of answer.  I may feel gratitude and relief that this person (if he knows a thing or two) is taking me seriously.  In fact this may be more meaningful than any expressions of "oh how lovely", or "wow, you play this difficult work wonderfully" or just a hidden dismissiveness of "good playing".

Offline iansinclair

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All good comments!  I might add one minor note -- don't ever listen to a person such as myself, who was trained first as an organist and only later took up piano -- to produce good piano fingerings for Bach!  The fingerings organists use are often very similar, true, to piano -- but sometimes are astonishingly different!  And I still use some organ fingerings even in Chopin or Mussorgsky -- which I am currently working on -- the the complete consternation of some of my friends and fellow pianists!
Ian

Offline timothy42b

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Can you provide a copy of that fingering? Would be interesting to see.

I will look for it.  But I would think the "correct" fingering for that one is pretty widely known and available. 
Tim

Offline ranjit

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... I may feel gratitude and relief that this person (if he knows a thing or two) is taking me seriously.  In fact this may be more meaningful than any expressions of "oh how lovely", or "wow, you play this difficult work wonderfully" or just a hidden dismissiveness of "good playing".

I would have been more than happy if the said person would have commented on the musicality of my playing, or if he would have pointed out exactly where a more logical fingering could have been used (which I believe he wouldn't have since I wasn't taking classes from him).

However, here, the only comment he made was about my fingering: that I was playing the piece wrong because I fingered it incorrectly. Also, implying that there is a single "correct fingering", while any other fingering is wrong.

Though I have not been able to formally learnt piano, I am not a rank beginner. I never had any doubt that I would be able to play the notes, as the piece is very easy technique-wise as compared to other pieces which I  had learnt.

I wanted to learn the piece because I liked how it sounded, and felt that there was a lot of room for interpretation, which made the piece interesting. I had experimented for hours together trying to interpret it the way I wanted. I was sincerely hoping for some musical feedback.

Can't you judge a fingering by observing the effect that it produces on the hand? If you can get a piece to fall naturally under the hand, without any unnecessary strain or effort, then is fingering still such a big issue? I don't think it normally is.

Also, I have a (very) strong suspicion that the person is not a competent teacher, but can not be sure because I am not competent enough myself. That is partly why I asked this question.

Online keypeg

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Ranjit, you responded to one single line of what I wrote out of context.  I would ask you please to consider the whole.

Offline stevensk

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-There is no such thing as one and only correct fingering, but there IS such thing as wrong fingerings

Offline ranjit

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Ranjit, you responded to one single line of what I wrote out of context.  I would ask you please to consider the whole.

I did not quote the whole reply as I felt it would go too long.
Looking back, I realized that I worded the question as "what would you think..." So, of course, you answered the question perfectly well.

I was actually wondering if this was something that, say, a good piano teacher would say if one is able to play effortlessly with a given fingering. I can imagine a good teacher saying "the passage would be more logical/appropriate to alternate the octaves 1-4, 1-5", but I can't imagine him/her saying point-blank that "the fingering is wrong" unless it is particularly egregious, and not thought out at all. To my ears, this sounds as if the person had remembered a particular fingering note by note.

I have seen the videos of a few good piano teachers on Youtube (Paul Barton, Josh Wright, etc.), and they usually suggest a few fingerings which people generally use, often backed up by an explicit reason of why they work, and then encourage the viewers to try them out, and decide which one fits their hand best. I believe this is how this usually works in classical piano after the very beginning (say, first few grades), but I can't be sure because I have never met a good piano teacher in real life (which is why I resort to the internet, despite all the members here advising against it ;D).

Offline dogperson

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 There's a lot I don't understand about your post and your follow up information. First of all, if the teacher said to you that you're fingering was all wrong why didn't you ask how or where?  Your post states that you assume he would not have provided  this information, but you don't know that because you didn't ask.  You assume because it sound a good to your ears then it also Sounded good to the listener.  That is not always true, because as pianist we are so concentrating on what we play that we don't really hear how it actually sounds, and therefore need feedback from others or recording  what we play  so that we can make an independent judgment when we are  not involved in the execution.

If this post is to decide on a judgment on whether this is a good teacher or not,  no one can make that judgment from an Internet post.

Lastly, you have been asked to post the fingering you did use and the measure but you have not done so.  If you would like some advice about whether what you did is all wrong or not, that  information needs to be provided.

Online keypeg

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I did not quote the whole reply as I felt it would go too long.
Looking back, I realized that I worded the question as "what would you think..." So, of course, you answered the question perfectly well.
It may be that you already have an opinion, and you want to see that opinion reflected.  otoh, we are here to help each other and learn from each other.  Also your post as a whole suggested that you were a learner.  For example, when you say you learned a piece "on your own" - if you were an advanced, taught pianist you would not stress the "on my own" - things like that.
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I was actually wondering if this was something that, say, a good piano teacher would say if one is able to play effortlessly with a given fingering. 
There are assumptions in the wording of your question, which also points to inexperience. ;)

"Effortless" is subjective.  For example, when I started to learn with the excellent teacher that I have, I learned new ways of doing things, and then I discovered that what had seemed effortless was actually cumbersome.  I had not known what effortless could feel like until I experienced it.

Secondly, effortlessness is not the only thing.  Fingering choice can affect musical sound, as does technique, and the development of your own ear - all three go hand in hand.  I see that you have been playing mostly self-taught for only a year.  It is likely that there are many things you do not yet hear or are aware of.  I have been playing a fair bit longer than you, and there are quite a few things that I am learning to hear.

The only way to tell about feedback is to ask "Why are you saying this?" as I wrote before.

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I can imagine a good teacher saying "the passage would be more logical/appropriate to alternate the octaves 1-4, 1-5"
The problem is that as I understand it, you have not had any experience working with a teacher to be able to tell what a good teacher would do, and how to work with such a teacher.  As I understand, you worked a little bit with this person who you just advised you.
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.... but I can't imagine him/her saying point-blank that "the fingering is wrong" unless it is particularly egregious, and not thought out at all.
I have an excellent teacher, one in a million imho - and he has said just about those words or similar on at least one occasion.  My reaction as a student was to wait and see what he said next.  I learned a thing or two that day.  :)
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To my ears, this sounds as if the person had remembered a particular fingering note by note.
It is not, in fact, to your "ears" -- because to your ears would involve him playing and you listening, or him having you play and hear the difference.  You literally don't know what he meant or why he said it, because you didn't ask.
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I have seen the videos of a few good piano teachers on Youtube (Paul Barton, Josh Wright, etc.), and they usually suggest a few fingerings which people generally use, often backed up by an explicit reason of why they work, and then encourage the viewers to try them out, and decide which one fits their hand best.
These are generic lessons designed for groups and can thus not be specific.  Both of these teachers are also teaching advanced things.  If you were to work with either of them individually, either of them might tell you the same thing, depending on what is going on.

What people are advising you is student-teacher 101.  Find out why a person is saying something, explore it, and then measure the advice.  If it's some random fellow who plays up to grade 5 who happened to help you when you were learning, you may want to be careful.  But if you ever do find yourself an excellent teacher, and if you decide to judge his advice by comparing it to on-line teachers or books, or your own impressions, you will lose out big time.  That is the kind of thing that makes good teachers avoid us adult students.  You are right, however, to be cautious.

Offline louispodesta

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This is one of the most important posts in Pianostreet history, in my opinion.  Accordingly, I list the following predicate per this statement:

1)  With the exception of the bronze death molds taken of 19th century pianists, there is significant evidence that most composer/pianists had very different hand morphologies/structures.  E.G., Chopin and Liszt (bronze molds) had very large hands.  Contrary to this, there is no evidence that Mozart, Clara Schumann, Mendelsohn, or especially Bach, had a large hand.

2)  Most of Chopin's students were aristocratic very short, and very small handed females.  And, most assuredly, contrary to the specific written instructions of Chopin's student Karol Mikuli, they had to change suggested fingerings, and most importantly arpeggiate most chords over the width of an octave.

3)  Therefore, the average student does not have that luxury of utilizing suggested fingerings!  Claude Debussy never even wrote fingerings or pedal markings for these exact reasons.

4)  Haydn and Mozart's original manuscripts show no fingerings.  Mozart, for the record, taught his individual keyboard (Pianoforte) works in two voices with Figured Bass.  This was to have the individual performer select/improvise their own interpretation.  And, that of course, would include the specific performer's own fingerings.

5)  The late Earl Wild states unequivocally (because he was alive and there), that most concert pianists re-distributed chord distributions between hands per the particular morphology of their own hand.  In plain English, EVERYBODY DID IT!!

Summarily, there is no keyboard law that prohibits experimentation with fingerings.

When I was at North Texas State University in 1971, I bummed a private lesson with the late Stephan Bardas.  This man was the very first concert pianist to publish alternative fingerings for selected Beethoven Sonatas.

And, per the OP, he was internationally famous for his alternate fingerings for double thirds!

So, when a teacher any teacher passes judgment on your fingering of a particular section/passage, I suggest you do what I do.  And, I have a DMA for a Concerto Coach.

When, she says out loud:  there is no way I would ever finger it that way, I say:  okay, this is why I do it this way based on the way my fingers comfortably rest on the keys.  E.G., it is no big deal for me to play the fourth or fifth finger in this particular situation, et al

Most importantly, I tell her that I will try it her way and I do!  Then, in the next coaching session, we very abjectly reference the prior conversation, and then work it out.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the way you find out you have a good teacher;  not some hack just regurgitating what their teacher taught them before you. 

Offline ranjit

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You assume because it sound a good to your ears then it also Sounded good to the listener.

No, I don't assume that because it sounded good to my ears, then it would sound good to the listener. That is a function of personal preference and musical maturity.
I recorded my playing dozens of times, compared the recordings with each other, as well as with how I wanted them to sound (my personal idea of the piece), as well as several online recordings.

It may be that you already have an opinion, and you want to see that opinion reflected.  otoh, we are here to help each other and learn from each other.  Also your post as a whole suggested that you were a learner.  For example, when you say you learned a piece "on your own" - if you were an advanced, taught pianist you would not stress the "on my own" - things like that.There are assumptions in the wording of your question, which also points to inexperience. ;)

First off, I am really grateful for your long and detailed reply!   :)
 
I have been learning piano on my own, firstly because it is not feasible for me to attend classes (I will not go into details here), and secondly, because I am an autodidact by nature.  ;D I understand that some aspects of pianism can not be learnt by reading a book, but I have read pretty much everything on the internet which I could lay my eyes on (including thousands of posts on Pianostreet!).

I also agree with the rest of your reply. I had actually paused for a long time before I typed "effortless" because it did not fully convey what I meant. But, I did not want to add so many caveats that it made the post unreadable. I wanted to listen to a critical evaluation of my playing, but was disappointed. I'm pretty sure that the teacher was not advanced enough to have meant that the choice of fingering had caused the rhythm or tone to vary from what was intended.

As to what effortless can feel like, I can play for hours together, improvising whatever strikes my fancy, with tons of octaves and arpeggios, without my hands feeling in any way uncomfortable. So, I'm pretty certain I'm not too far off the mark, but I can't really know for sure, because I can not have anyone independently evaluate my playing. To be clear, I'm not denying what you said. I would jump at an opportunity to study under an excellent teacher.

The problem is that as I understand it, you have not had any experience working with a teacher to be able to tell what a good teacher would do, and how to work with such a teacher.

You're right!

Actually, I'm pretty sure my previous teacher was incompetent. He never really talked about hand position, and was convinced that one could acquire "perfect pitch" by practicing scales and technical exercises for hours each day, and that he had himself acquired it that way. He would keep talking about developing hand strength and how one should practice until his hands hurt, etc. I can not be absolutely sure of my judgement because I have met no one else in person to compare him with, and he had a respectable business. I felt (and still feel) that I learn piano faster and better by myself than by being  taught by a run-of-the-mill piano teacher.

But the question wasn't about this specific person; rather, it was about fingering in general, and how it is regarded in the piano community at large.

Offline ranjit

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Note: Most places I have not marked in the treble clef are fingered 1-2-5.

There were a few mistakes in the previous score, so I have uploaded a new version. The right hand in m.3 & 4 is fingered 1-3-5 and 1-2-4 respectively. Also, measure 2 is 1-2-4 as well. It may not have been clear initially.

Offline louispodesta

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"ranjit":

If you expect people, not only on this website, to take you seriously, then you should not use the words "piano community."  There is no such thing, but it would be marvelous if it did.

Accordingly, words like: "But the question wasn't about this specific person; rather, it was about fingering in general, and how it is regarded in the piano community at large." DO NOT EXIST!

Therefore, it has nothing to do with interpretation or style or anything even remotely associated with such.  Unless it is in a slow passage, fingerings has to do with facility/agility, and is often the case, speed.

"ranjit," you have a lot of very well experienced pianists who have posted a response on this very important particular thread.  You had best just "shut up," listen, and then learn.

Online keypeg

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"ranjit":

If you expect people, not only on this website, to take you seriously, then you should not use the words "piano community."  
I am one of the people on this Website.  Please do not inform members on the attitude that I or others may hold toward them.  I am forced to make a correction.  Ranjit, my taking you seriously has nothing to do with your choice of vocabulary.  In fact, I am taking you seriously, and have taken you seriously.  It is not due to your terminology choice, but because you are asking questions seriously in an effort to learn, and you have taken time to try to understand responses.  You have also been honest with your thoughts.  THAT - Louis - is what makes many of us decide whom to take seriously.  

I am responding to this, because I remember when I was a novice and joined a forum, how timid one is about writing in at all.  It takes courage.  The last thing anyone new needs to be told is that they will "not be taken seriously".  That is intimidating and I will not be part of such intimidation as one of the "people on this Website".

As to the term itself - there is a gathering of people who post on the topic of the piano - a group of people can be thought of as a community - and it is indeed piano they are discussing.  It does not mean that it is a "community" of people who all think the same way and have the same backgrounds.  In fact, the nature, as with any Internet loose gathering, is the greatest diversity.

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Accordingly, words like: "But the question wasn't about this specific person; rather, it was about fingering in general, and how it is regarded in the piano community at large."
There is nothing wrong with asking the question!  When you are learning, you have to start somewhere.  Any time that I have had the fortune of having a good teacher, then my starting question would subsequently be guided in the right direction.  Our first questions as learners can be stabs in the dark.  Like the kid with his back to the pinata, you gently turn him around in the direction of the stuffed donkey.

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"ranjit," you have a lot of very well experienced pianists who have posted a response on this very important particular thread.  You had best just "shut up," listen, and then learn.
Well, there's a challenge to logic?  When I ask my teacher a question, I do indeed "shut up" while he is talking and demonstrating, or having me follow his instructions.  But then he observes what I am doing in the lesson, or what I come up with after practising later on.  I am also encouraged to ask further questions, or ask about what I don't understand.  Any teacher, and any guide, needs to know what his advice wrought.  How will this happen if Ranjit "shuts up"?  Shall we poke our antennae into the ether and hope we can smell the  understanding?

No, Ranjit, please do not shut up.  But also ... consider and try those things that make sense, and take the time to try them each time before asking more.

I would suggest in regards to the first question, that if you think your advisor may have any knowledge, to nab him and ask what his thoughts were when he said your fingerings were all wrong.  Have him explain or demonstrate.  If he can't, then maybe he was just full of hot air.

Online keypeg

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Note: Most places I have not marked in the treble clef are fingered 1-2-5.
I've taken a printout of your link to the piano. A caveat: I am not an expert in fingering, and this is an are where I am a learner myself. But I have gotten some first understanding by now.

Always RH: I am curious why in m. 1 you have chosen that fingering - why not 1 3 5, for example?  Does it have anything to do with the upcoming F in m. 2?  Meanwhile in m. 4 you have exactly the same notes as in m. 1, but you have chosen a different fingering.  Why?  In m. 11 you again have 1 2 4 for the same interval.  For m. 12 I don't know how strict the "rule" is about avoiding having the pinky on a black key (the C#).

There are some good teachers on the Internet: atm I can think of Rachel Jimenez and Jaak Sikk, who both teach how the hands work.  You might get some excellent insight into how the hands and fingering work.

I am making a wild guess right now that between m. 1 and m. 2 you do not move the hand up, but rather keep it in one place and thus choose the 2-4 for C,E so that you can stretch over to 3-5 for D,F.  The overall picture is that one needs an overall picture, and that is what a decent teacher can give me, who also looks at how you are using your hands, why you make your choices (which goes back to the first).  From what you have now written about the "teaching" you received from this first person, I'm dismissing that guidance right off the bat.
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As a personal story - I ask my teacher for more than normal fingering advice, because my choice of fingering goes with what is "natural" for me, which is what is habitual for me, and that is often not what is good for the hand.  As soon as I work with his fingering and experiment, I start learning new ways of moving and new concepts of how the hand might feel in its motion.  I cannot rely much on my inner guidance as to what feels "normal" because the "norm" I developed is flawed.  It is a huge gap.  And btw, I am by nature and past necessity an autodidact.  I'm pretty good at teaching myself, and for that reason I also know its limitations.  (A bad and misguiding teacher is worse, though).

Offline ranjit

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Always RH: I am curious why in m. 1 you have chosen that fingering - why not 1 3 5, for example?  Does it have anything to do with the upcoming F in m. 2?  Meanwhile in m. 4 you have exactly the same notes as in m. 1, but you have chosen a different fingering.  Why?  In m. 11 you again have 1 2 4 for the same interval.  For m. 12 I don't know how strict the "rule" is about avoiding having the pinky on a black key (the C#).

I played the second measure 1-2-4 as well. Also, measure 3 is 1-3-5, and measure 4 is 1-2-4, sorry. This is the first time I have ever notated a fingering, so please bear with me.  :-\

I have fairly large hands (can reach a 10th-11th), so that may be a factor in choosing 1-2-4. The first 1-2-4 leads upward with a slight rotary motion to the right. The 1-3-5 in the 3rd measure leads comfortably back to the 1-2-4 in the 4th measure. Measure 12 is E-G-C#. It feels very awkward to play G-C# 2-4. Also, I wanted to accent the C# heavily, and 5 did the trick.

Note that I am analyzing this post-facto. When I played, I thought in a much more "intuitive" manner, so to speak.

I tried 1-3-5 once you mentioned it. It is slightly more comfortable for the hand, but not significantly so. But, fingering all of m.1 to 4 1-3-5 doesn't seem right. I looked at a few videos online, and it seems 1-2-4 and 1-3-5 are used almost interchangeably. Some also do 1-2-4 leading up to 1-3-5, which seems like a good idea...that was what you meant by the F in the second measure, right?
If I had to finger it again, I would probably do the following:
m1-124
m2-135
m3-135
m4-124
I'm curious as to how you would finger these measures.

The file below is with the corrections. I will also modify my previous post.

Offline indianajo

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On the one hand, you are paying the teacher, so try the fingerings they suggest.  There may be reasons you may not understand at first.  
OTOH, the fingerings printed in books and taught by the majority are made up for northern Europeans with a much longer 3rd finger than the 2nd and 4th finger.  (prussians, russians IMHO).   Oddly enough, not everybody playing piano is a northern European.  I'm not. My bones are Native Am. My 3rd finger is 3 mm longer than the 4th and 4 mm longer than the second.  this is a bit unusual.   I suspect with a user name like Ranjit, you are not northern European either.  
Personally I use the thumb a lot more than is shown printed, even on the black notes.  I have no trouble fitting my fingers or thumb between the black notes which many Europeans do. I play up in the skinny key area a lot and love the key of C# because of the way it fits me.  My 3rd finger doesn't tend to bang into the back rail when I use my thumb.
My teacher was quite accepting of my extremely unorthodox fingerings.  This was not a university or conservatory level. Those institutions seem quite conservative in maintaining the "traditions" which were in fact made up by northern Europeans. JS Bach was northeast German, Chopin was Polish, Rachmanoff was Russian, right?  Watching youtube videos of Rubenstein was shocking to me. His hand looks more like an aye-aye to me than a human. That enormous 3rd finger!  But I was taught by a greek/Am female who was definitely not northern European.  
Even as an organist JSB was playing trackers which take a lot more force IMHO than the electric Hammond organ I own. So his fingering may develop more force, for a reason.  If you are practicing on an electric keyboard, your fingerings may be unsuitable for acoustic piano, especially heavy touch grands (Steinway, Yamaha).      
Best of luck learning.  

Offline cardeno

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I joined Pianostreet expecting higher standards than what I read in this particular post. Bach himself would tear his hair (or wig) out if he read these comments. For Pete`s sake the prelude in C is just a few chords in arpeggio form with a very simple bass. It sounds lovely but it is a very simple composition for any one to play unless he/she is a very beginner. Even some of the  "Klein Preludes" are more difficult to play. Bach himself notes that anybody with some taste should be able to play them.

If in order to play a very simple piece of music there are so many discussions about how to finger it, can you imagine the billions of combinations and permutations to be discussed just on fingering about Bach`s compositions?. What a waste of time!.

Therefore I`m dis-membering myself???, giving up membership from this site and joining Pianomotorway to progress a bit quicker. 

Offline yewtree

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I joined Pianostreet expecting higher standards than what I read in this particular post. Bach himself would tear his hair (or wig) out if he read these comments. For Pete`s sake the prelude in C is just a few chords in arpeggio form with a very simple bass. It sounds lovely but it is a very simple composition for any one to play unless he/she is a very beginner. Even some of the  "Klein Preludes" are more difficult to play. Bach himself notes that anybody with some taste should be able to play them.

If in order to play a very simple piece of music there are so many discussions about how to finger it, can you imagine the billions of combinations and permutations to be discussed just on fingering about Bach`s compositions?. What a waste of time!.

Therefore I`m dis-membering myself???, giving up membership from this site and joining Pianomotorway to progress a bit quicker. 



Can't find Pianomotorway on google.

Offline timothy42b

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Therefore I`m dis-membering myself???, giving up membership from this site and joining Pianomotorway to progress a bit quicker. 

Your profile shows you lasted 5 days.  That may be a record (if you really leave.  Most people who threaten don't.) 

Suggestion:  lurk a while before joining. 
Tim

Online keypeg

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I joined Pianostreet expecting higher standards than what I read in this particular post. Bach himself would tear his hair (or wig) out if he read these comments. For Pete`s sake the prelude in C is just a few chords in arpeggio form with a very simple bass.....
I'm not sure about these "standards".  When I work with an excellent teacher, then apparently "simple" pieces are exactly the ones that such teachers often see butchered through a lack of insight and depth.  If that piece is played as "just a few chords" etc. that is pretty shallow.  "Standards" are not about difficult or flashy repertoire or pieces slated as "grade xx".  The kinds of questions asked are serious questions.  AND this is the student's corner.

I've noticed that you did not respond to my response to your post in this thread.

The other post is advice about Fuer Elise, which includes imagining oneself courting someone of the opposite sex - it was not bad feedback per se, but I did not find it to be of extremely high standards or depth, if the standards are being judged here.

Perhaps you were looking for advanced (grade level) music to be discussed?

Offline cardeno

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Can't find Pianomotorway on google.

Sorry yewtree "Pianomotorway" was a joke to infer that "Pianostreet" is too slow for me judging by the concentration in the fingering of a relatively simple piece. May be the people who post in Student`s corner are very young and beginners, that`s why I find them too slow???????.

Offline cardeno

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I'm not sure about these "standards".  When I work with an excellent teacher, then apparently "simple" pieces are exactly the ones that such teachers often see butchered through a lack of insight and depth.  If that piece is played as "just a few chords" etc. that is pretty shallow.  "Standards" are not about difficult or flashy repertoire or pieces slated as "grade xx".  The kinds of questions asked are serious questions.  AND this is the student's corner.

I've noticed that you did not respond to my response to your post in this thread.

The other post is advice about Fuer Elise, which includes imagining oneself courting someone of the opposite sex - it was not bad feedback per se, but I did not find it to be of extremely high standards or depth, if the standards are being judged here.

Perhaps you were looking for advanced (grade level) music to be discussed?

Replying to your quoted comment here I have to say that if you are learning to become a professional piano player, i.e. to earn a living, then you have to follow your teacher`s instructions, however there are fantastic amateur players to a high standard (search in U-Tube) and I`m talking about them here.

First thing one should do before even practising separate hands of a piece is to go through it and find a suitable fingering for one`s comfort and abilities and jot it down in big numbers if necessary This will take time but once found it means that from then on that piece will be learned and played thereafter with the same fingering and it`s much easier to learn that way. All my music sheets of pieces have numbers everywhere and it looks more like a case of "play by numbers" than "play by music" but it suits me that way because then I don`t have to think when a note is difficult to interpret while playing, for example notes with several ledger lines, if a finger falls on it as you play the previous one I note the finger for that note and then I don`t have to think whether it is G or F, etc. Sometimes I also write the note by its name, G or F, etc. if no finger falls on it naturally, that seems silly and amateurish but as David Eagleman says the brain takes about 1/2 second to interpret a visual experience, therefore if you don`t want to spend much more time learning a piece because of those difficult notes and you have to repeat that passage time and time again till it becomes automatic just write down the note or hundreds of finger numbers  and then the brain picks it up straight away as if you had been hammering that passage.

As you ask my level can be defined as intermediate, able to play most of the Bach`s 48, Album for the Young, Chopin`s some nocturnes, waltzes etc., I`m a mature amateur by the way.

As far as your comment on standards the way I look at it is that composers like Bach for example were just people like anybody, talented in music and composition who worked to earn a living like a doctor, bin man or anybody and of course had to imprint their feelings into the piece because those were the only feelings they had. It is us, or more to the point, the snobs in music circles who create this sense of tragedy and standards who they say only the privileged ones can understand, whereas composers tried to churn out as many pieces as possible to earn money, but they were so good at it we admire their talent in expressing and arousing different feelings in us, same as painters churn out fantastic paintings often very quickly.

A good test for "standards" in piano playing is this. Listen to your favourite player playing a favourite piece of yours for a particular mood you are experiencing at that moment and then when you are in the same mood because of sadness or joy, love or rejection play the same piece yourself (I assume here you are good enough to play that piece), and then ask yourself this question "Which version I enjoyed best?", I`m quite sure you`ll say YOUR version because you were creating that music while experiencing that mood. Same happens with a composer but they are so good at it they are able to stir millions of people, but not all of us, the majority of people in the world don`t care about those composers and their music and instead listen to some racket.

As far as Fuer Elise is concerned you say that my standards don`t have much depth which I agree. Fuer Elise is not a tragedy, is a piece of love and the fast passages  suggest tragedy but it is just a man trying to get the girl by the best means he was gifted with, it wasn`t looks perhaps, or sociable personality, it was his talent to compose and express feelings and he used this asset to get the girl. The tragedy is that it seems he never latched with anyone, that is why he was occasionally seen in Viena`s red district same as Schubert was and this latter paid the ultimate price for this "SYPHILIS"!!!!!!!
So much for Schubert`s standards!!!!!!. (Sorry Schubert, you know how much I admire and struggle with your lovely pieces.......)





Offline thirtytwo2020

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Dear Ranjit,

Thank you for your post, prompting this very interesting discussion. I am a professional pianist, I have taught a great deal and met a few very good teachers IRL. I love the fact that this post has turned into a general discussion about the way we think about fingerings and how we should teach and learn them. But let me just try to answer in a few words your actual question. (What would I think etc...)

What I would think would depend on who said it to whom, and in what situation. As others have suggested, there are probably cases where a good teacher could be justified in saying something like that, if the student trusts the teacher to deliver helpful information and the teacher trusts the student to be able to take his advice the right way. But in most cases, I think it would be the wrong thing to say.

In your particular situation, it was certainly wrong. I've looked at your fingerings and there's nothing remarkable there. As I understand it, you were not even having a lesson with this person but only played the piece for him hoping for some feedback on interpretation. In that case, criticizing your fingering was completely unnecessary and inappropriate.   

Offline vaniii

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Wow, fingering.

I have never looked at fingerings much to the pain of SOME teachers.

In my teaching today, I teach my students to understand WHY.

If you avoid scales and arpeggios, then you will always be stuck in one of two camps: complete reliance on finger numbers; a complete and utter inability to navigate the keyboard.

Remeber, the journey is always more important than the destination; that is, what you learn is always more important than the result.

LISTEN to the sound, not your EGO.

Offline toughbo

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If you avoid scales and arpeggios, then you will always be stuck in one of two camps: complete reliance on finger numbers; a complete and utter inability to navigate the keyboard.


I think Argerich and Volodos might want to disagree with that.

Offline vaniii

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I think Argerich and Volodos might want to disagree with that.

You are using a straw man argument.

Argerich and Volodos know what a scale is, and how to apply it, despite not practising them.  Furthermore, what is the relevance of mentioning them in regards to my post; please elaborate.

Offline toughbo

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Both artists are part of a bunch of people who say they never practiced scales and even say it's useless.
Despite this, I think they are able to navigate the keyboard quite well.
Their ability to play complex works at sight (and improvising in Volodos' case), with a wonderful interpretation, suggests to me that they can do this navigation without complete reliance on finger numbers.

Thus, in my opinion, neither are stuck in one of the two camps you claim one always will be stuck in if they avoid scales and arpeggios.

Offline cardeno

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I agree with vanii, if you don`t practise scales and arpeggios you`ll end like me with music books full of numbers and also notations to be able to achieve big skips, and I don`t think I`ll ever achieve the speed a properly trained student practicing scales will achieve, that`s why I stick to slower pieces.
I hate "Allegros", give me an "Andante" or "Allegretto"  any time.........I only learn movements of sonatas or partitas that I like and generally they are the slower ones. So I never try gigues but I do allemandes and sarabandes and avoid courantes although if an "allegro" is really lovely I take the bother to learn it, same with the English and French suites.

I did my Czerny as a child but I only took up piano again later in life and I now pay the price, however considering the best way to learn a piece is to always use the same fingers for the same notes I only have the problem that before playing a piece at all I spend a long time working out the fingering suitable for me.

Offline toughbo

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You don't have to practice scales and arpeggios to play fast, it's not a magic bullet.
If you can play fast - properly - you can play scales and arpeggios fast.

Offline timothy42b

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If you avoid scales and arpeggios, then you will always be stuck in one of two camps: complete reliance on finger numbers; a complete and utter inability to navigate the keyboard.



Maybe you can amplify a bit on how you apply that.

There are some composers where scale fingerings work, some composers where correct fingering isn't crucial, but Bach is neither, and we're talking about a Bach piece here. 
Tim

Offline cardeno

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You don't have to practice scales and arpeggios to play fast, it's not a magic bullet.
If you can play fast - properly - you can play scales and arpeggios fast.

That`s true but aren`t we going the wrong way then?, it is like learning to drive by driving first without tuition.

Offline toughbo

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No, I don't think so, I don't think it's comparable.
It's like learning to paint circles if you can already paint wheels perfectly.

Offline vaniii

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Tonal music, fundamentally, consists of agreed upon shapes, sounds and figures that are used to articulate and express ideas.

These ideas are constructed using diatonic scale shapes.

I find it astonishing that anyone can claim to play the piano and not understand and rehearse scales and arpeggios. 

Literally, every tonal composition has a key centre based on a particular scale, even if for a few notes.

---

Maybe you can amplify a bit on how you apply that.

There are some composers where scale fingerings work, some composers where correct fingering isn't crucial, but Bach is neither, and we're talking about a Bach piece here. 

@timothy42b: Define correct.  My hand is different from yours. Everything is correct if it is performed convincingly and without a doubt.  Scales are often referred to incorrectly (i.e.  mindless repetition to learn fingerings).  Not what I refer to; I teach scales in groups, with similar shapes based on the geography of the keyboard.  Essentially the fingering is the same, but it is never about fingers, it is about the obstacle the learner is navigating.  Of course, one would need to not be thinking about pieces, and more the tool used to ‘unlock them’, basic technique.

In the age of instant gratification, this is never the case.

The music the OP presented is hardly more than an exercise in arpeggios, shared between the hands.  If they really wanted to, they could play the entire thing using one hand and pedal if they so wished. 

Both artists are part of a bunch of people who say they never practiced scales and even say it's useless.
Despite this, I think they are able to navigate the keyboard quite well.
Their ability to play complex works at sight (and improvising in Volodos' case), with a wonderful interpretation, suggests to me that they can do this navigation without complete reliance on finger numbers.

Thus, in my opinion, neither are stuck in one of the two camps you claim one always will be stuck in if they avoid scales and arpeggios.


It's like learning to paint circles if you can already paint wheels perfectly.

@toughbo: Clearly, you like cyclic arguments; that is ‘chicken or egg’.  I will ask you directly, do you rehearse scales?  I do, which is evidenced by my bias in persuasion to thinking they are necessary.  Understanding diatonic scale structures means when I read music, I have an awareness of key, chord, melody, and harmonic progression without the need to stop and study, simply because I rehearsed those things at length at some point in my life.  If you are in contact with Argerich and Volodos, please ask them to explain WHY they do not rehearse scales.  I think you might find that they DID, but do not anymore because they understand them completely.

---

“I don’t need to do X because [Famous Outlier] did not”
Or
“I don’t need to go to music college because Beethoven did not”
Or
“I don’t need to wear concert dress for my recital because James Rhodes wore jeans and a T-shirt”
Or
“I don’t need to learn the most efficient method that has developed over hundreds of years, I’ll just write all the notes in … because that’s so much easier”

Unless you are a savant, you need to rehearse scales to unlock the synapse in your brain for motor skill.  You need to play LOTS of music to understand how music works and see associate patterns and shapes.  You need to take it slow so you can think during your practice.

Fingering is not that big of a deal if you spend a little time with a keyboard without notation.

[sarcasm]
If only there was a way to learn keyboard shapes and sounds, without notation … to understand finger patterns … in a variety of keys …

I really wish someone would create such an exercise …
[/sarcasm]
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