WHICH GRAND IS BEST?

[dj]

o yeah and i was talking about US dollars (sorry about that) and the price of a brand new steinway grand that was the same size as my estonia was over 30,000...again, i don't know much about used prices so that might b something worth looking into.

[amy]

hey dj

ur right..  i just gotta trust me own instincts.
i just get scared when poeple say that certain pianos need a lot of care, and or tuning and checking up on and fixing and stuff.. i guess that applies more to older pianos? (where they need to be taken care of more?)

hopefully i can get a hold of some estonias in Toronto.
whats the difference between Steinway.. and Steinway & Sons?

thanks

[rachfan]

Steinway & Sons is the formal company name for the piano we commonly refer to as a Steinway.  

[BoliverAllmon]

Here is my 2 cents worth. I personally say look around alot. When you go and find a piano that you really like, leave the store come back in a week and try it again. See if it is still what you want, or was something influencing you the other day? I have only played on a couple of grands myself, but have found a certain Yamaha to be quite nice. It is made of some special African wood which gives it a nice sound and color. Others don't like the sound and definately don't like the price (70,000 for a six footer), but I do like the sound. It will really come down to what you like. You are the one playing the piano. I personally recommend heavy keys. It is so much easier to express on heavy keys. Don't worry about the fingers they will adjust.

BoliverAllmon

[BoliverAllmon]

What I meant to say was that I have a certain taste in sound and others feel differently. You will be the one playing the piano, so find  a piano that you enjoy playing.

Boliver

[Chiyo]

I'm going to get Yamaha C5 grand, when I have money. Will be like 7 years later  

[eventemp]

...a couple of pints not yet mentioned:  if one is talking about pianos above $25,000 US, then, in addition to the importance of the piano sounding great to your specific pair of ears, stability of tone over time, and tuning stability, monetary appreciation is also a practical consideration.  I am thinking of trading "up" my current Yamha C-3, which I love, to either a C-7 or an S-6, if I can find a University "loaner" that has a tone that knocks me dead.  But does the readership think that a Steinway "B" might have better monetary appreciation?? Thanks for reading.

[dinosaurtales]

Well, I would be truly amazed if any piano except the rare exception actually appreciates in value.  What you probably would look for is either a piano that will maintain the highest percentage of value, or the one that would be easiest to unload.  I can't answer the value maintenance question, but either Yamaha or Steinway would be as easy as any to sell or trade in if you needed to.  All this assumes that they have been taken care of well.  Both are high quality well=known brands with a solid clientelle.

[eventemp]

...with regard to monetary appreciation, I bought a Steinway upright in 1962 for $2,000, and sold it for $4,000 in 1996.  So with this experience, I am assuming the same to be true for most "brand" pianos.  I could well be wrong, but I have one data point.

[garthdk]

Hi,

For me touch is the most important issue.  I'm curious to hear people's opinions about the touch and action that is best.  I feel that a light action is greatly preferable.  Heavier actions really discriminate against people with smaller, lighter hands and forearms.  While I have strong hands and a pretty good technique, I have played on lighter and heavier keyboards and found that my technical prowess is much better on the lighter keyboard.  Technically, it may require a bit better fine control on the lighter keyboard (i.e. a slight difference in force may yield a larger difference in volume), but I consider this a far more desirable technical problem than being literally slowed down by the heaviness of the instrument.  

I have played Petrofs which I found too heavy.  My current yahama is also not light enough for me.  I also have a roland digital keyboard that has excellent lightness, but of course not a genuine enough piano feel.  

I'm also curious to hear from technicians about the mechanics behind touch difference, and if/how touch can be changed on a given piano.

[rachfan]

Hi eventemp:

Actually, DinoTales is quite correct.  When you bought your Steinway upright in 1962 for $2,000 and sold it 34 years later for double, $4,000, it sounds great, but you're forgetting at least one factor--inflation.  In other words, the real value of a dollar was worth far less in 1994 than back in 1962.  Using the Urban CPI index, in June 1962, for example, the index stood at 30.2, whereas in June of 1994 it was 148.0, an inflationary increase of 390% over the period.  So to exactly get your original $2,000 investment back (assuming neither depreciation nor appreciation), your sale proceeds on the piano would have to have been $9,800 just to offset inflation.  The fact that you couldn't realistically expect that return in the market means one thing--the appraised value of the piano reflected depreciation rather than appreciation over those years.  Thus, there would likely be no informed and willing buyer doing comparison shopping prepared to cough up $9,800. So for all practical purposes on the deal, you actually lost $5,800 in terms of "real dollars" off your original investment, not through any fault of your own, but simply through a combination of inflation eroding the value of a dollar and depreciation caused by normal use and wear.    

[dinosaurtales]

Holy cow, RachFan!  That was incredible!  You are either:

1)  an economics major, with highest honors,
2)  Really good with numbers, with a calculator , or
3)  really good at making stuff like this up.

I am totally amazed.

[rachfan]

Hi Dino,

Thanks!  Actually your #2 supposition is correct.  Beyond that, I also have an MBA and DBA (Doctor of Business Administration), so that helps a little bit too.

The sad truth that all this points out is that with the passage of time, a dollar is never a dollar.  The second sad truth is that with the passage of time, any durable good is not only no longer new, but has suffered deterioration too.  (Come to think of it, that last statement could apply to us pianists as well as our instruments!)

RachFan

[eventemp]

Rachfan....you are absolutely right in your analysis...but think of the pleasure I received over all those years from playing my Steinway!  What I am asking in the present case  (where I am thinking of upgrading my Yamaha C-3 to a Steinway or Bosendorfer)  which of these pianos maintains the best value over time?? With the low current interest rates, and low increases in the CPI, it might not be such a bad deal if you can believe Steinway that the new prices on their pianos will increase 5% a year, on average.  Given the depreciation (due to wear and tear) that will occur, after ten years, there will still be a sizeable value left.  The reason I bring this up is that if I were to buy a piano in the $45-50,000 price range, the piano will be sold upon my death, since no one else in the family plays.  I am concerned with the value that the piano will bring.  

[rachfan]

Hi eventemp,

I'm currently the owner of a Baldwin L, but before that had a Steinway M.  I pretty much grew up playing Steinways and Baldwins and enjoy them both, so have remained partial to them.  

If you are looking at the Yamaha S6 in your possibilities, that piano is 6' 11", of course.  So the Steinway B is nearly identical in length.  The Bosendorfer 214 is 7' as well as you know.   Either the Steinway or Bosendorfer will ultimately have the edge for greater residual values than the Yamaha due to superior materials and craftsmanship in my opinion.  (Yamaha dealers will vociferously dispute this though.)   I've played Yamaha numerous times.  To me the bass is woody and the treble is brittle and bright.  Also, the sustain (tone decay) is faster than American pianos, making it harder to effect legato playing.  So I'm not too keen on the sound.  I do like the Yamaha action a lot though--very even and responsive.

As to which would win the contest between Steinway and Bosendorfer, that's a good question.  Larry Fine has found in his latest survey that one difference maker between the two is quality, and Bosendorfer has been winning there lately.  In fairness though, as long as the Steinway receives proper dealer prep, that could equalize that particular difference.  

One thing I dislike about Borsendorfer is that because the scale design favors the fundamental tones, it is a purer but thinner sound than the fuller and more complex "American sound" which emphasizes the richer overtones in scale design.  One result is that when playing at dynamic fff, the Steinway carries it off with thunderous aplomb.  The voice of the Bosendorfer seems to croak, crack and shatter like broken glass at those moments.  Others here have noticed that too.  One person mentioned that when trying a Borsendorfer in a showroom, it was even more startling, in that the voicing seemed altogether different for the bass, alto and treble to the point where he thought he was playing three different pianos!  

A suggestion I would have would also be to try a Baldwin SF10E (7') in your explorations.  It's a marvelous piano, but not for everybody.  Baldwin is a sturdy, artist quality piano that also holds value well.  Like Steinway, it requires a lot of dealer prep prior to delivery to the customer.   Also, if you come across a Mason & Hamlin BB (7'), sit down and try it too.  Many passionately make the case for M&H over Steinway.  My first teacher had an M&H Model A, but I liked her Steinway B better.  So it comes down to individual taste and preference.  

Estate planning is always a smart idea, I agree.  But in your lifetime, the primary consideration is that you  thoroughly enjoy your piano, especially given the large outlay that you will make to purchase it.  So I say put that at the top of your priorities!!  Visit dealers and try as many artist quality pianos you can to find the one whose sound you love.  Let that be the chief deciding factor.  

Good luck in your search!

[dinosaurtales]

It's interesting, the fuss over M&H lately.  The two guys that took them over have made vast (not just half-vast) improvements in them - so the new M&H's are incredible compared to ones even a few years old, at least of the ones I played.  But M&H is still a bit of a beast compared to the Steinways.  They sounded great, but felt and looked big and heavy, like  a battleship.  They are quite a bit cheaper, and you can most certainly get a better deal on the M&H, and still have a great piano!

[BoliverAllmon]

Also you might want to look around local operas, symphonies, bands, schools, and anywhere else that has pianos. Most of the places sell their pianos for rock bottom prices. Our opera out here is selling all their pianos, because they don't look stylish enough for the stage. So i can get a spectacular piano, that plays well, but maybe have a blemish or two for a price that you just can't beat. Look into it.

Boliver allmon

[DepravedPianist]

Alot of people think I'm crazy for saying this, but I hate the sound of Steinways that are of american build. They are so bland. Like an overpriced Kimball grand. The Steinways made in Hamburg Germany are of a much higher caliber. I practice on a steinway (hamburg) which I am madly in love with. Oh and Bosendorfer_214 I'm in love with the 7' bosendorfers.  They are wonderful. Baldwins are nice, the hand made yamahas are nice. I'm going to look into the Playel 190 and see if I can get a practice session on one and let you all know what I think when I do. I've got an old one that I practice on at home, but it VERY old. LOL.

Love and Peace
-S-

[dinosaurtales]

It's amazing how you adjust to a sound.  Americans are used to the Steinway sound, because that's what most conservatories and concert halls have. When I shopped for pianos, I sort of developed a taste for the *European* piano sounds, and ended up with a Fazioli, which is sort of a mix to me.  But now when I go to a recital and hear the Steinways, they sound fuzzy and sort of dull to me.  I guess I just got used to my piano.  Amazing.

[Bosendorfer_214]

You would think that after being brainwashed with  "the Steinway Sound" for so long, anything new would sound wrong and unwelcome...I say this with a Bosendorfer in my living room...the other end of the spectrum.  My teacher has a Steinway B and  Falcone Grand and I sometimes can't wait to get home to my piano.

Nic

[xenon]

yes, i would agree with you.  many people prefer steinway because of the popularity.  A music store ive been to lists all the pianos that the biggest concert halls in the world has, and i would say that over 90% of the pianos are steinways.  however, this is because thier "cheaper" price and almost-bosendorfer quality.  bosendorfers are exceptionally expensive.  there is a steinway 9' and 7', and a bosendorfer 280 at the U of M.  According to the opinions of my colleagues, my teachers, and myself, the steinways are horrible.  the bosendorfer is truly exceptional, but is highly revered and protected, so its not out for performance much.   whats the point of having an expensive piano if all you do is keep it under a cover in the back room? meh. to me, bosendorfer is far more superior.  tho, its incredibly expensive.

as for the best piano in the world, it has to be the bosendorfer 290.  its 9'6" (biggest in the world) with 9 sub-bass notes, encompassing the whole 8 octaves (from c to c).  it is the best, imo that is. (and many others)  however, its much too expensive.  one day, perhaps, one day...

[pianomanrsn]

Well anyone that argues that great music halls buy Steinway Ds because they are almost as good as Bosendorfers and a lot cheaper just does not understand the equation.

I am not a big Steinway fan. Having said that, it is clear that Steinway offers artists two advantages that are difficult for Bosendorfer or any other piano manufacturer to match. First, the D has a reputation for being strength of projection and the ability to make itself heard in a big venue. Second, Steinway has been very active for many years in courting the big concet pianists and providing insturments for them at their concert sites. Considering that it costs Steiway megabucks to provide this inventory of pianos at a variety of events, some of them not in a concert hall and others requiring transport, it is very easy for the artist to slip into the Steniway system. Since Steinway also has a factory in Hamburg, they work Europe the same way they work North America. Yamaha is the only firm large enough to compete with Steinway in this fashion and since it does not have the same reputation for quality, few artists sign on to Yamaha. A notable exeception to this was of course the Sviatoslav Richter who many consider the best that ever was. He played a Yamaha.

My suggestion for the original poster would be to take a look at August Forster. These are supurb German-built pianos that though still somwhat expensive, are in a range that might tempt many young musicians.  They are only a half step behind Bosendorfer, Steingreaber, Bluthner, Fazioli, Grotrian, Bechstein, and Steinway (Hamburg) pianos, and head and shoulders above just about everything else. If your budget is not up to a AF, I would look carefully at either a Kawai or Yamaha or perhaps a gently used German or Austrian piano. The Mason and Hamlin pianos are also quite good. The Shigeru Kawais and the Yamaha S series are also fine pianos, but have relatively high price points that would push me toward AF.

Rob in Dallas

[xenon]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the projection issue...
I have heard that Steinway was more superior for projecting, but that issue has become less and less of a concern becuase modern technology is able to help spread around the sound.  However, many pianists, myself included, do not like the way (cheap) microphones pickup sound.  But the technology is there that prduces real-life quality sound that almost eliminates the issue of projection.

But I do realize that a complete sound system is not practical/feasible in al situations.  In that department, I would have to admit that Steinway wins.

[dinosaurtales]

Yes, pianomanrsn is right.  The August Forster is a wonderful piano for basically half of cost of what they consider to be theri competitors.  If you  are looking for a top-notch piano, but cant quite spring the budget, check them out, because they are amazing compared to others in the same price range.

[eddie92099]

Every piano has a different character and tone, and different actions. However, in general, I find the following:
Steinway Model D (around 60000pounds) is better than the Imperial Bosendorfer (about 50000). The Bosendorfer has a great central part of the keyboard but the bass and treble are lacking. The ultimate piano is the Fazioli F350 but at over 100000 its also the most expensive! Cheaper makes: Yamaha is the most reliable but Kawai can also be good. Bechsteins are too old! (except for the new ones)
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

I disagree about the size of a grand.  I tested a pearl river grand piano gp-142 4'7" and it filled the whole auditorium with great bright sound.  Granted I am not used to the sound of grand pianos. Having grown up on a cheap spinet wurlitzer piano. But anyway I was really pleased with the instrument. Please anyone with experience on the pearl river pianos in the last few years (>year 2000) tell me about it. Thankyou.  I put down money on the gp142 but am now waiting for it to arrive.  I can still back out of the deal if someone reveals startling information to me that they can prove. Thankyou again.  

[jnlje]

Hi Amy,

Get a 6ft Steinway grand and you'll never regret having it. I think Steinway is the best piano in the market today.