Piano Forum

Piano Forum »
Piano Board »
Performance »
You have a legal right to correct the composer

Poll

When pianist has right to correct the composer?

Always: 2 (40%)
Only AFTER you did everything the composer wanted: 3 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Pages: [1] Go Down

Topic: You have a legal right to correct the composer (Read 3879 times)

vladimirdounin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 345

You have a legal right to correct the composer

on: November 11, 2017, 07:14:53 AM

Let us imagine that our site is called not "pianostreet" but "composer street" and each of you is a great composer.

Two pianists approached you with their concerns regarding your last sonata.

Pianist No 1 is unhappy with some obvious mistakes in the score (your or publisher's mistakes - does not matter). He says that in D-Major chord there should not be F-Natural in right hand at the same time with F-Sharp in left hand, and in 4/4 time signature should not be 7 quarters in bar No 23. He asks you to authorize his corrections: F-Sharps in both hands in the first case, and 6 eighths followed by one quarter instead of 7 quarters in the second case.

Pianist No 2 is unhappy with your Largo in Second Movement and with Presto in Finale because he feels uncomfortable in such a slow tempo and can not manage Presto technically. Therefore he replaced your Largo with his Andante and Presto with his Andante as well. He refuses to play for you your Sonata categorically because according to himself it sounds like crap. However, he reassures you that for his sh*t under your name you will still get all your royalties. So everything is all right.

Good musician HAS right to correct the composer but only AFTER he already played EVERYTHING in the song in EXACTLY THE WAY THE COMPOSER WROTE and still is unhappy with the result.
If there is obvious mistake, the musician has right to take such a responsibility to make the correction.

However, take your hands away from the song if it is simply too tough for you technically or intellectually, and do not blame the composer for your incompetence.

My teacher Vladimir Nielsen was extremely strict on accuracy in classic, he worshiped Mozart and could easily drive away a student, who displayed negligence towards great composers.

Could you imagine my surprise, when he corrected Mozart in my score of C-Minor Fantasy by his own hand? On the very last page he ordered me to double the bass line, when Mozart wrote only a single voice.

He explained me that Mozart wrote not for our modern "Steinway" and "Boesendorfer" but for the instruments he knew at HIS time. He could not hear that his single bass sounds unbalanced on our modern concert grands.

By the way, Mozart played a competition against Clementi and failed. Clementi won because he was a manufacturer of new pianos and knew all new features of this amazingly advanced instrument. Mozart did not. He was basically still in harpsichord era. At least at his early period of life.

When I asked the teacher of my teacher - Nadezda Golubovskaya (she shared the First Prize with Sergei Rachmaninov at graduation): "Who is the best pianist in the world?" - She answered immediately: "Emil Gilels, because he never cheats. He does not substitute the composer with him self".

Logged

hardy_practice

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 1587

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #1 on: November 11, 2017, 07:53:52 AM

Mozart won.

Logged

B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

mjames

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2557

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #2 on: November 11, 2017, 08:39:20 AM

Please keep posting, I love it.

(for all the wrong reasons.)

Logged

keypeg

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3922

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #3 on: November 11, 2017, 12:41:23 PM

But why would the idea of "legal right" ever come up in the first place? Has anyone ever been sued by a composer for playing different notes, or different tempi, or wrong notes? Has a question of legality ever come up in this regard?

I don't understand the purpose of the topic, or reason for it. I've read more than one account about various composers where in their lifetime a musician played their work differently than written in some aspect, and the composer even preferred it as played - or encouraged the interpretation by that musician.

For the example of the teacher who respected Mozart, but added the extra note for the reasoning he gave, I see no contradiction here, because adding the note moved toward respecting the composer's intent. Deep knowledge of everything, including how instruments change over time historically in sound and function, is part of that respect. Recently I gave a link in another forum on an exploration by a teacher of the "sensa sordino" in Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata (the movement where this occurs) - where he illustrated on a modern and period instrument, what sounds get produced on each instrument. Stubbornly sticking literally to the instructions "sensa sordino" while playing a modern grand piano would not give the effect the composer had in mind. etc.

These kinds of discussions happen frequently with my own teacher. Some of the other considerations are for example where a composer was locked in the conventions of his time, and so was not allowed to change key signatures or time signatures frequently, leading to an awkward score - and discussing alternatives now that we do have this greater freedom.

I do understand that there are people who teach piano who are rather limited in their own understanding, and so push for a marionnette-like mindless "following" of a score. Is that what is being addressed?

Logged

outin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 8211

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #4 on: November 11, 2017, 12:49:15 PM

Quote from: keypeg on November 11, 2017, 12:41:23 PM

But why would the idea of "legal right" ever come up in the first place? Has anyone ever been sued by a composer for playing different notes, or different tempi, or wrong notes? Has a question of legality ever come up in this regard?

Indeed there was a case in my country just recently where a piece of music was recorded in a way that the original rights owner thought was changed too much. But this was popular music. So it's possible but unlikely and obviously only relevant with music still in copyright.

Logged

klavieronin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 856

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #5 on: November 11, 2017, 12:52:16 PM

I'd like to vote on the poll but I'm not sure if you're talking about the law or about artistic integrity? Also the phrasing of the question makes it difficult to decide. I don't think you can "correct" the composer because it's the composer's work and there aren't right or wrong answers in music. But that doesn't mean the performer can't make their own artistic judgements about how to play the music. In fact it's completely necessary. No matter how detailed a score is it will never have all the information about how to perform it. That's why computers sound so terrible when they play music from a traditional score.

If we are talking about the law then my understanding is that changing an artistic work without the author's permission does constitute copyright infringement but I don't think it applies to questions of interpretation. You can't copyright styles or ideas. The changes would need to be physical in some sense (changing notes or chords for example) and it would need to fall outside the bounds of parody, satire, or commentary. There are plenty of grey areas I'm sure but the scenario you described for pianist No.2 sounds less like they were being a copyright criminal and more like they were just being a bit of an ass.

Logged

chopinlover01

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2118

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #6 on: November 11, 2017, 06:57:29 PM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 11, 2017, 07:14:53 AM

Pianist No 1 is unhappy with some obvious mistakes in the score (your or publisher's mistakes - does not matter).

Mistakes don't exist in music; they're "artistic opportunities"

Quote

He says that in D-Major chord there should not be F-Natural in right hand at the same time with F-Sharp in left hand,

Wrong, D7#9. Y'all need to study your jazz harmony

Quote

and in 4/4 time signature should not be 7 quarters in bar No 23. He asks you to authorize his corrections: F-Sharps in both hands in the first case, and 6 eighths followed by one quarter instead of 7 quarters in the second case.

Wrong again, it's implicitly a quarter note septuplet

Logged

vladimirdounin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 345

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 12:02:06 AM

Quote from: chopinlover01 on November 11, 2017, 06:57:29 PM

Mistakes don't exist in music; they're "artistic opportunities" ;DWrong, D7#9. Y'all need to study your jazz harmony

Wrong again, it's implicitly a quarter note septuplet

1. Who are you eventually chopinlover or jazzambassador? I do NOT need to study MY jazz harmony because jazz is not my field and I am not at Jazz forum. In Chopin's music this particular combination of D# and D Natural is impossible, so it should be corrected by every literate pianist.

2. Mistakes DO exist in music scores, almost in each edition. These mistakes are not opportunities but real traps in Music. For example, mentioned by me excellent pianist Emil Gilels recorded the 2nd concerto by Saint-Saens with a terrible rhythmical mistakes in 1st movement: he confused Quarter rests (these rests were printed in French tradition, like Eighth rests pointed in opposite direction) with Eighth rests. It was a heavy blow to him, when the others pointed this confusion to him.

The knowledge of Musical Theory gives you a chance to detect these mistakes and correct them. Probably, you are playing only by ear, if you do not know about this fact.

3. If you had an elementary knowledge in Music Theory, you had to know that a quarter note septuplet should have a special sign under or over the group of notes (like bracket) and there should be a special number "7" under or above the "abnormal" in 4/4 group of notes.

If these special sign and number 7 are NOT presented (I did not mention them) - then this is an obvious mistake - the trap for silly pianists, who can not read notes properly.

Logged

ronde_des_sylphes

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2960

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 12:44:05 AM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 11, 2017, 07:14:53 AM

Let us imagine that our site is called not "pianostreet" but "composer street" and each of you is a great composer.

Two pianists approached you with their concerns regarding your last sonata.

Pianist No 1 is unhappy with some obvious mistakes in the score (your or publisher's mistakes - does not matter). He says that in D-Major chord there should not be F-Natural in right hand at the same time with F-Sharp in left hand, and in 4/4 time signature should not be 7 quarters in bar No 23. He asks you to authorize his corrections: F-Sharps in both hands in the first case, and 6 eighths followed by one quarter instead of 7 quarters in the second case.

For the sake of argument..

(I know example 1 isn't harmonically identical, but it still has the "forbidden" 7th clash and was an example I had to hand - I can construct a harmonic progression very easily with exactly your example if you liked however)

20171112_003746.jpg (2639.8 kB, 2319x2156 - viewed 254 times.)

20171112_002403-1.jpg (3087.48 kB, 3055x1637 - viewed 242 times.)

Logged

My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
Info and samples from my first commercial album - https://youtu.be/IlRtSyPAVNU
My SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/andrew-wright-35

keypeg

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3922

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 01:53:38 AM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 12, 2017, 12:02:06 AM

... Probably, you are playing only by ear, if you do not know about this fact.

........... - the trap for silly pianists, who can not read notes properly.

I have just lost interest. As soon as things become ad hominem, attacking others, then even the most interesting ideas lose their appeal.

Logged

tenk

Full Member
Posts: 132

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 03:52:53 AM

Who is this joker and where did he come from? Did someone resurrect faulty_damper?

Logged

vladimirdounin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 345

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #11 on: November 12, 2017, 10:04:18 AM

Quote from: ronde_des_sylphes on November 12, 2017, 12:44:05 AM

For the sake of argument..

(I know example 1 isn't harmonically identical, but it still has the "forbidden" 7th clash and was an example I had to hand - I can construct a harmonic progression very easily with exactly your example if you liked however)

I did not find the "forbidden" 7th clash in your samples. Your "clash" is separated by time and other notes. This fact changes the situation completely.

By the way, what exactly (which song of which composer) did you quote. I did not recognize, sorry.

Logged

ronde_des_sylphes

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2960

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 10:51:46 AM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 11, 2017, 07:14:53 AM

Two pianists approached you with their concerns regarding your last sonata.

Pianist No 1 is unhappy with some obvious mistakes in the score (your or publisher's mistakes - does not matter). He says that in D-Major chord there should not be F-Natural in right hand at the same time with F-Sharp in left hand

Hence my first example, which was from a piano concerto written by me, and I've added two further examples (from the same piece) of "forbidden sevenths", as well as the final example, which is designed to illustrate your specific case. I could include internal parts which would make it even less clear that there is anything "wrong", but chose not to. I'm sure I could find examples in late romantic music of similar "wrong" notes, but chose my own examples because that's easier than looking around.

The second example in my previous post was from Liszt's Norma Fantasy.

ex2.jpg (49.8 kB, 329x152 - viewed 229 times.)

ex3.jpg (22.25 kB, 494x165 - viewed 233 times.)

ex1.jpg (45.86 kB, 287x162 - viewed 232 times.)

Logged

My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
Info and samples from my first commercial album - https://youtu.be/IlRtSyPAVNU
My SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/andrew-wright-35

ronde_des_sylphes

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2960

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #13 on: November 12, 2017, 12:18:31 PM

In my opinion, you will find many examples (if you look hard enough) where a score presents implicit questions as to whether it is correct, and the pianist must in these cases do his best to make an informed choice.

An example from my own experience.

In Liszt's paraphrase on Rienzi, whenever the "prayer" theme occurs, Liszt has arranged it with Wagner's turn UPSIDE DOWN.

What should a performer do?

Is Liszt an

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 09, 2017, 02:45:41 AM

idiot, who are "smart enough" to correct genius and substitute great music with their own crap proudly called "interpretation".

If the performer returns it to Wagner's original, and disobeys Liszt, is he an idiot?
If the performer plays what Liszt wrote, and disobeys Wagner, is he an idiot?

Logged

My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
Info and samples from my first commercial album - https://youtu.be/IlRtSyPAVNU
My SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/andrew-wright-35

chopinlover01

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2118

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #14 on: November 12, 2017, 09:54:01 PM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 12, 2017, 12:02:06 AM

1. Who are you eventually chopinlover or jazzambassador? I do NOT need to study MY jazz harmony because jazz is not my field and I am not at Jazz forum. In Chopin's music this particular combination of D# and D Natural is impossible, so it should be corrected by every literate pianist.

2. Mistakes DO exist in music scores, almost in each edition. These mistakes are not opportunities but real traps in Music. For example, mentioned by me excellent pianist Emil Gilels recorded the 2nd concerto by Saint-Saens with a terrible rhythmical mistakes in 1st movement: he confused Quarter rests (these rests were printed in French tradition, like Eighth rests pointed in opposite direction) with Eighth rests. It was a heavy blow to him, when the others pointed this confusion to him.

The knowledge of Musical Theory gives you a chance to detect these mistakes and correct them. Probably, you are playing only by ear, if you do not know about this fact.

3. If you had an elementary knowledge in Music Theory, you had to know that a quarter note septuplet should have a special sign under or over the group of notes (like bracket) and there should be a special number "7" under or above the "abnormal" in 4/4 group of notes.

If these special sign and number 7 are NOT presented (I did not mention them) - then this is an obvious mistake - the trap for silly pianists, who can not read notes properly.

Someone's sarcasm detector is broken.

If I wanted to debate music theory with people who clearly know little about music theory or how music is prepared, I'd go to YouTube comments sections.

Logged

vladimirdounin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 345

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: ronde_des_sylphes on November 12, 2017, 12:18:31 PM

In my opinion, you will find many examples (if you look hard enough) where a score presents implicit questions as to whether it is correct, and the pianist must in these cases do his best to make an informed choice.

An example from my own experience.

In Liszt's paraphrase on Rienzi, whenever the "prayer" theme occurs, Liszt has arranged it with Wagner's turn UPSIDE DOWN.

What should a performer do?

Is Liszt an
If the performer returns it to Wagner's original, and disobeys Liszt, is he an idiot?
If the performer plays what Liszt wrote, and disobeys Wagner, is he an idiot?

I had absolutely the same situation, when I had to play my State Exam at Leningrad/St. Petersburg Conservatory.
My teacher Vladimir Nielsen ordered me to correct ALL discrepancies in the text of Schubert's / Liszt songs according to Schubert.

In his opinion Schubert in these songs was much more important and valuable than Liszt, who, by the way, quite often shifted this work on his own students and the accuracy wasn't his first priority.

Logged

chopinlover01

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2118

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 03:34:27 AM

Troll, have some food.

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 12, 2017, 12:02:06 AM

1. Who are you eventually chopinlover or jazzambassador?

Does it matter?

Quote

I do NOT need to study MY jazz harmony because jazz is not my field and I am not at Jazz forum.

Wrong. Jazz harmony is hardly exclusive to jazz (it actually came largely out of Bill Evans copying the style of Ravel), and it makes your classical playing more informed.

Besides, why wouldn't you want to know more about music?

Quote

In Chopin's music this particular combination of D# and D Natural is impossible, so it should be corrected by every literate pianist.

Half step combinations are impossible?

https://imgur.com/a/sNBXr

Now, see, I know you're talking about having the same note name with two different accidentals, but I'm being snarky because you're being a dumbass who cannot read sarcasm. And yes, I'm sure now you've decided that I can't ever be right by virtue of using the word "dumbass" (even though you also committed ad hominem in your response to my original post).

Quote

2. Mistakes DO exist in music scores, almost in each edition. These mistakes are not opportunities but real traps in Music. For example, mentioned by me excellent pianist Emil Gilels recorded the 2nd concerto by Saint-Saens with a terrible rhythmical mistakes in 1st movement: he confused Quarter rests (these rests were printed in French tradition, like Eighth rests pointed in opposite direction) with Eighth rests. It was a heavy blow to him, when the others pointed this confusion to him.

Again, your lack of sarcasm detection fails to realize I was being factitious.

Quote

The knowledge of Musical Theory gives you a chance to detect these mistakes and correct them. Probably, you are playing only by ear, if you do not know about this fact.

3. If you had an elementary knowledge in Music Theory, you had to know that a quarter note septuplet should have a special sign under or over the group of notes (like bracket) and there should be a special number "7" under or above the "abnormal" in 4/4 group of notes.

If these special sign and number 7 are NOT presented (I did not mention them) - then this is an obvious mistake - the trap for silly pianists, who can not read notes properly.

Well, we can have a "music theory-off" one of these days if you'd like (and I'm willing to bet decent money that you wouldn't win

), but in case you doubt that I can play written music, here's some videos of my playing you can check out:

iew_as=subscriber

By the way, even if you discount playing by ear, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to have good musical ears.

Logged

marik1

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 250

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 05:49:47 AM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 16, 2017, 10:17:31 AM

My teacher Vladimir Nielsen ordered me to correct ALL discrepancies in the text of Schubert's / Liszt songs according to Schubert.

This is a normal, widely accepted practice...

Logged

vladimirdounin

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 345

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 07:20:13 AM

[quote

Logged

xdjuicebox

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 281

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #19 on: December 06, 2017, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: vladimirdounin on November 12, 2017, 12:02:06 AM

1. Who are you eventually chopinlover or jazzambassador? I do NOT need to study MY jazz harmony because jazz is not my field and I am not at Jazz forum. In Chopin's music this particular combination of D# and D Natural is impossible, so it should be corrected by every literate pianist.

2. Mistakes DO exist in music scores, almost in each edition. These mistakes are not opportunities but real traps in Music. For example, mentioned by me excellent pianist Emil Gilels recorded the 2nd concerto by Saint-Saens with a terrible rhythmical mistakes in 1st movement: he confused Quarter rests (these rests were printed in French tradition, like Eighth rests pointed in opposite direction) with Eighth rests. It was a heavy blow to him, when the others pointed this confusion to him.

The knowledge of Musical Theory gives you a chance to detect these mistakes and correct them. Probably, you are playing only by ear, if you do not know about this fact.

3. If you had an elementary knowledge in Music Theory, you had to know that a quarter note septuplet should have a special sign under or over the group of notes (like bracket) and there should be a special number "7" under or above the "abnormal" in 4/4 group of notes.

If these special sign and number 7 are NOT presented (I did not mention them) - then this is an obvious mistake - the trap for silly pianists, who can not read notes properly.

1. ...dude we live in the 21st century. By neglecting all of the musical developments in the jazz world, you essentially sentence yourself to becoming an anachronism - you're stuck in the past. Look at Gershwin, Ravel, and countless other composers of the 20th Century! They were influenced by jazz. And for the sake of not using Jazz, have you listened to Schoenberg? Stravinsky? How would you feel about Stravinsky's polychords, like F# (or was it Gb? in Petrushka) over C? And even in the music of Rachmaninoff said dichotomy of F in a D major chord exists, used as a chromatic lead to some other note. (I'm too lazy to find an example, but there are so many chromatic lines you're almost certain to find one somewhere; Op. 23 No. 4 is a good place to look)

3. Not gonna contest this too much, but there are points in Chopin's (and numerous others) where he doesn't write the little tuplet numbers - it's overly cumbersome and everyone knows what you means.

Yes, sometimes the composer is a little ridiculous and dumb. Then just don't play their music. If anyone changed a single note in any of my compositions because they thought it was right (assuming I disagree; sometimes I welcome the changes), I would go absolutely ballistic. It's a matter of preference, at this point. We live in 2017, soon to be 2018. The dissonance is completely emancipated, and the tonal cage of the past has long been shattered (about 100 years ago, actually). Polychords can sound beautiful when used correctly.

There are some parts of some pieces that I would love to change - but then I make the changes, and I realize why the composer wrote what they wrote. Sometimes it's because of voice leading reasons, sometimes because it messes up a climax, the mood just isn't right, there might be all sorts of reasons. For example, in Brahms Op. 118 No. 2, just before the recap, I tried adding a few chords, because I thought it would work better. It doesn't, it completely screws up the pacing.

Logged

I am trying to become Franz Liszt. Trying. And failing.

chopinlover01

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2118

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 02:20:07 AM

^ don't try to reason with him lmao

Logged

xdjuicebox

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 281

Re: You have a legal right to correct the composer

Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 07:42:53 AM

Quote from: chopinlover01 on December 07, 2017, 02:20:07 AM

^ don't try to reason with him lmao

Haha fair enough.

Logged

I am trying to become Franz Liszt. Trying. And failing.

Sign-up to post reply

Pages: [1] Go Up

For more information about this topic, click search below!

Piano Street Magazine:
New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score

A previously unknown manuscript by Frédéric Chopin has been discovered at New York’s Morgan Library and Museum. The handwritten score is titled “Valse” and consists of 24 bars of music in the key of A minor and is considered a major discovery in the wold of classical piano music. Read more

Piano Forum

Poll

When pianist has right to correct the composer?

Topic: You have a legal right to correct the composer (Read 3879 times)

Piano Street Magazine:New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score

Piano Street Magazine:
New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score