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Topic: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM? (not about the TEMPO)  (Read 10008 times)

Offline vladimirdounin

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Schumann's "Traumerei" with Schumann's RHYTHM.  It is not about the SPEED, the TEMPO, guys.

Freedom vs Slavery.       From ignorance to knowledge = from slavery to freedom.


Imagine yourself a dealer of some reputable company, for example, "Mercedes". One potential buyer takes your car for a test drive and comes back not quite happy with the car. The car "sniffs the asphalt" on  steep entrance to his driveway.  So he asks for wheels to be mounted one inch larger.

However, the buyer does not want to lose an excellent acceleration of the car at the same time.
Therefore, he asks to replace the 184 HP engine with a more powerful 204 HP engine.

And he asks to replace the velour seats with leather, because he often travels with a dog. Dog's hair is difficult to clean off the velour.

There is no doubt that this buyer will get a car with such wheels, engine and seats what he needs.

But here's another buyer, who even refused to take a test drive because he knows in advance: what exactly needs to be changed in the car. He wants wheels from the tractor for off-road driving, the engine from the lawn mower for fuel economy and a hammock instead of a standard seat to relax in it while traveling.

Although today they produce more cars than they can sell,  the firm will most likely refuse to fulfill  these ridiculous alterations, because they ruin  the very idea of this great car and turn it into a worthless rubbish.

We have the same situation in our business: there are much more performers and music teachers  than listeners and students. The ridiculous alterations of masterpieces and disrespect even for the best composers is very common.  One can understand a musician who is somewhat unsatisfied with the composition and wants to correct something in it,  because he/she  is 100% sure that this correction will be better than the author's version.  But how can we understand the musician , who never even tried to play exactly what the composer wrote,  but from very beginning played just his own fictions instead of original text?

This phenomenon has become so massive that I, for example, failed to find on the  You Tube even a single recording of  Schumann's "Traumerei" without substituting the author's  RHYTHM with some kind of more or less successful rhythmic improvisation of the performer.  By the way, the notes of Schumann's melody are often replaced by notes of some other voices and the original notes of the melody are practically in mode "mute" in this case .  Today's listener is completely deprived of the opportunity to hear exactly what Schumann composed and compare the original with what is played instead of it.
Each note in the music has its exact  timing.  If the performer changes it , then he performs not original but his own music.  However, he  still covers himself with the name of the great composer.  This situation is unfair to both: to the composer and to the public.

No wonder that the performance of "Traumerei" with the correct rhythm  and tempo is perceived by many as 'the most bizarre "Traumerei" ever heard'.

I propose here my records of "Traumerei" in different tempos, but with the accurate rhythm written by Schumann. I can prove this accuracy because I recorded with a metronome generating  a click for every EIGHTH note (not a quarter note). My eighth notes coincide with clicks, and there are no shorter notes than eighths in this piece.  I attached the record with the metronome below among the records of my work on this piece.

I recorded "Traumerei" in the usual for modern performers tempos:

1. Three times slower than Schumann wanted. You can hear this tempo, for example, from  Lang Lang.

 ROBERT SCHUMANN - Traumerei (Lang Lang, 2004)



His "Traumerei" lasts  3 minutes instead of 1 in Schumann's tempo "100 quarter notes per minute".  Some performers play even slower - about 4 minutes.


2. Twice as slow as Schumann wanted.  You can hear this tempo, for example,  from  Vladimir Horowitz

  Schumann-Traumerei, Vladimir Horowitz



His "Traumerei" lasts  two minutes.


3. And I did one minute long record  at the tempo  "100"  indicated by Schumann.  Unfortunately,  today no one pianist  plays at Schumann's tempo.
 I put  "Traumerei" at tempo "100" on You Tube to give listeners an opportunity to compare.

Playing this piece at a very different tempo from the ultra-slow "33" to the ultra-fast "150" I did not find and did not feel the slightest reason to replace the elegant rhythm written by Schumann, organically combined with the pattern of the melody, with a rhythm played by any of the pianists. I hope that my listeners will also agree that Schumann's rhythm sounds better than any of its distortions, abundantly presented on You Tube.

If you liked the rhythm, composed by Schumann,  I invite you  to listen to the recordings of my work on this piece with a metronome.  You will achieve complete freedom in your performance of this piece,  if you just do the same thing that I did on these records :.

 I recorded a melody with synchronous accompaniment at the tempo of "150", "125" "100", "50" and "33"  for comparison with "lagging accompaniment" that I play in my first four recordings. Prof. Lev Oborin explained me this technique using a quote from Matthew 6:3 - "don't let  your left hand know what your right hand does".

Everyone can decide for himself: which accompaniment sounds better?

At the beginning,  I recorded "Traumerei" at four different tempos  with a slightly delayed accompaniment to the melody.  In romantic music, the lag of accompaniment  is quite acceptable, although this should be done very moderately,  when we perform seriously, on stage.  However, in the home work of the pianist, the delay can be made more explicit. With a large delay it is much easier for our brain to understand: what exactly should be done?  By itself, uncontrollably such a lag of accompaniment can never happen - it takes too much effort from the brain. Playing "like a soldiers walking in step" with two hands is much, much easier than with the delay in the accompaniment to the melody.

Many performers and especially piano teachers of the classical style suffer from acute allergies to the slightest discrepancy in the time of notes in melody and accompaniment, although this is  absolutely normal for ALL OTHER genres of musical art, for organ and harpsichord performing  (this is the only way to single out individual voices from the total mass since the keys do not respond to the touch force)  and even for classical opera and vocal performing.  Many wonderful vocalists have repeatedly asked me NOT to play my accompaniment at the same time with them, but to be all the time "half a step" behind.

The melody is the queen in music, and her servants, the suite should not go with the Queen in one line. They should be a little behind, otherwise this is a disrespect to the queen. For those who insist on the allegedly specificity of the classics, which requires simultaneity of all the notes written on the same beat, I would like to remind you that not one composer deliberately composed classical music.  Everyone always tried to compose popular music.  And then only the best of the best  compositions survived from millions of popular works,  which we today call "classics".

On my records without a metronome, I play "rubato" (with a barely noticeable lengthening of some notes necessary for expressiveness). This is perfectly normal, natural for any music, but these tiny extensions should not turn eighth notes into quarters, quarter notes into halves, etc.  Without "rubato" music becomes symmetrical, dead.  Because all living things in nature are at least slightly asymmetric (even our arms and legs, the right and left half of the face are not absolutely the same).

As a result of my work (recorded for everyone who wants to do the same), now I can play "Traumerei" at any tempo, "rubato" or  strictly on metronome beat, with a perfectly synchronous or with a lagging accompaniment, etc.  My performing intentions are variable depending on circumstances, time of the day,  weather outside, mood of my audience and myself etc.

HERE, BELOW IS MY RECORDING OF "TRAUMEREI" WITH SCHUMANN'S RHYTHM




Working on the rhythm by the sheet music makes the musician free, when copying by the ear of someone else's record makes the performer someone's slave.  It is very possible that the one who is copied himself  blindly copied someone else.

 "If a blind man leads a blind man, they both fall into a pit" (Matthew 15:14)



The path from ignorance to knowledge is the path from slavery to freedom. With my own example, I invite all pianists to set foot on this path and start (continue) to  learn and teach the music by sheet music, and not by records.
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Offline clouseau

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 07:18:04 AM
The same happens with other pieces from Kinderszenen and possibly other works from Schumann, because there is an ongoing dispute about Schumanns Metronome markings. Maybe this article is helpful:

https://www.henle.de/en/schumann-anniversary-2010/schumann-forum/schumanns-metronome-markings-a-bother-or-a-benefit.html
"What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune." - Rameau

Offline dogperson

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 07:49:50 AM
This is the same topic you started here in Nov 2017

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64437.0 

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 12:14:39 AM
This is the same topic you started here in Nov 2017

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64437.0 
Muchisimas gracias!  I am very glad someone else has the intestinal fortitude to out these frauds.

And, for the record, the true tempi, if there is such a thing, can be gleaned from the following two recordings of Clara Schumann's students:

Their style is very different, but the tempi is pretty much the same, OP!

1) 


2) 


3)  Please listen to the overall tempi in the other previous variations because they are the same.  As proof, the Traumeri starts in both recordings at virtually the same time 5:06

Enjoy.

Offline dogperson

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 01:35:26 AM
Muchisimas gracias!  I am very glad someone else has the intestinal fortitude to out these frauds.

And, for the record, the true tempi, if there is such a thing, can be gleaned from the following two recordings of Clara Schumann's students:

Their style is very different, but the tempi is pretty much the same, OP!

1) 


2) 


3)  Please listen to the overall tempi in the other previous variations because they are the same.  As proof, the Traumeri starts in both recordings at virtually the same time 5:06

Enjoy.



 Unbelievable, Louis, that you felt the need to post the same response that you posted in November .

Offline clouseau

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 04:25:48 AM
Murray Perahia on Kinderszenen. On 2:40 he explains something about the tempo


Seymour Bernstein also plays closer to the tempo indicated


It is an interesting subject. Some years ago a read somewhere a strange story that Schumann's metronome might have been broken and that somehow resulted in inaccurate metronome markings. Has anyone heard about that?

"What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune." - Rameau

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 07:54:32 AM
Some years ago a read somewhere a strange story that Schumann's metronome might have been broken and that somehow resulted in inaccurate metronome markings. Has anyone heard about that?

I've heard the same story about Czerny and some French composer I can't remember the name of.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 02:02:48 PM
This is the same topic you started here in Nov 2017

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64437.0  

Tempo and RHYTHM mean different things. My previous post was about the TEMPO. However, the present one is about the RHYTHM. It is strange that no one said a single word about the RHYTHM.

I tried to prove practically that this masterpiece does NOT need any modification of its perfect RHYTHM in any TEMPO from traditional (unfortunately) "34" to "supersonic 150".

If you check YOU TUBE from this angle, then you have to notice that NO ONE  pianist plays accurate RHYTHM, but only own improvisations instead.  Some of these improvisations obviously kill  this charming piece.

Example: 


Another goal of this post is to attract attention to the problem of  synchronous  and  "lagged" accompaniment. Everyone can compare both ways to accompany the melody  by the same pianist in different TEMPOS and decide: what manner is better for the melody?

Strange, but no one noticed this aspect of the problem as well.  The SPEED is not the most important matter in Music. The RHYTHM - is.

Offline michael_c

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Re: Did you hear Schumann's Traumerei with Schumann's RHYTHM?
Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 08:01:51 PM
It is an interesting subject. Some years ago a read somewhere a strange story that Schumann's metronome might have been broken and that somehow resulted in inaccurate metronome markings. Has anyone heard about that?

It's a myth. Clara did say in an article in 1855 that Schumann's metronome had been broken, but later clarified that statement, saying that they had possessed different metronomes that had small differences between them.

A mechanical metronome is a simple thing, with not much to go wrong. There were lots of them around at the time when Schumann was composing and to my knowledge nobody has discovered any one of them that ticks at a tempo substantially different to what it indicates. At worst it may tick slightly unevenly, with a limping effect: because of a problem with the escapement the time taken to move from left to right is not exactly the same as the time taken to move from right to left. But the basic tempo is never far from correct.

I think that if a composer took the trouble to indicate metronome markings, we should take them as seriously as we take any other indications, be they dynamics, articulation, rubato or whatever. How far we stray from any of these indications is our interpretive choice.

Offline beethovenfan01

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Quote
Tempo and RHYTHM mean different things. My previous post was about the TEMPO. However, the present one is about the RHYTHM. It is strange that no one said a single word about the RHYTHM.

I tried to prove practically that this masterpiece does NOT need any modification of its perfect RHYTHM in any TEMPO from traditional (unfortunately) "34" to "supersonic 150".

If you check YOU TUBE from this angle, then you have to notice that NO ONE  pianist plays accurate RHYTHM, but only own improvisations instead.  Some of these improvisations obviously kill  this charming piece.

Example:  


Another goal of this post is to attract attention to the problem of  synchronous  and  "lagged" accompaniment. Everyone can compare both ways to accompany the melody  by the same pianist in different TEMPOS and decide: what manner is better for the melody?

Strange, but no one noticed this aspect of the problem as well.  The SPEED is not the most important matter in Music. The RHYTHM - is.

Look, I think you've made your point. Unfortunately, you can't do much more than that. Even with all the evidence you seem to have worked very hard to gather in order to support your opinion (not to mention all the hours you have spent belligerently defending it), it's still our choice whether or not to agree with you. Now I personally think there are some tempo markings in great music that are indeed downright ridiculous (first movement of the Hammerklavier, anyone?). Not only that, but because we are constantly surrounded by computers and technology (I'm using one right now to write this), it is easy to forget that things weren't always so exact.

So then, what do we have? An approximation. Schumann's tempi, in particular, need to be taken with a grain of salt. The great teacher Paul Roberts said of Schumann's own tempo markings: "You can't take him literally." An example from his Sonata No. 2 (I think): Beginning tempo is--As fast as possible. But then we go faster. And after that, still faster. Um, what happened to starting as fast as possible? How can you possibly go faster than fast as possible? Now, I suppose the "still faster" section might be easier to play at ridiculously high speeds than the opening, but even with that, really, Schumann? Just a little over-zealous, I think. So I think it is entirely acceptable to play the piece in a tempo that fits the song.

And now that I see the score ... it says eighth note = 100. That sounds right. Then why are you arguing that it's a quarter note?
Practicing:
Bach Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 1
Shostakovich Preludes Op. 34
Scriabin Etude Op. 2 No. 1
Liszt Fantasie and Fugue on BACH

Offline louispodesta

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The bottom line is that before you could even think about taking a piano lesson from Clara Schumann you had to study under her teaching assistant of 20 years, Fannie Davies.

Therefore, regardless of the accuracy associated with early metronomes, the teaching assistant of the wife of the Composer should have a pretty good idea as to the tempo of this particular variation.

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Why would you use "lagging accompaniment" when it has at various times been common practice to desynchronise by doing it as left minutely before right - the complete opposite.

And in truth, I think any decent pianist should be able to

"play "Traumerei" at any tempo, "rubato" or  strictly on metronome beat, with a perfectly synchronous" (or desynchronised) accompaniment. (ie in varying performance styles).
My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
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Offline vladimirdounin

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And now that I see the score ... it says eighth note = 100. That sounds right. Then why are you arguing that it's a quarter note?

1. If you look at reliable score, you will see a QUARTER  NOTE but NOT an eighth note. I saw this  counterfeit  in somebody's score here on Forum as well, do not believe it.

2. This post is NOT about the tempo but about the  RHYTHM. Musician can change the tempo without killing the music. However, wrong RHYTHM destroys everything. 

Offline vladimirdounin

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Why would you use "lagging accompaniment" when it has at various times been common practice to desynchronise by doing it as left minutely before right - the complete opposite.

And in truth, I think any decent pianist should be able to

"play "Traumerei" at any tempo, "rubato" or  strictly on metronome beat, with a perfectly synchronous" (or desynchronised) accompaniment. (ie in varying performance styles).

Thanks for your very professional way to listen to my recordings and a very good question regarding "lagging accompaniment".

I have a whole chapter No 34 exactly on this topic in my book "The Laws of beauty in Music unknown to music schools"  but did not translate it from Russian to English yet. You can try with a Google Translate that works today much better than in the past.

https://www.proza.ru/2016/07/27/869

In two words: according to the book of  Nadezhda Golubovskaya, NO good musician will tolerate synchronous strike of all the hammers, this lack of Piano should be overcome by the distribution of these strikes in time.  However, amateurs do it from the bottom UP, while well educated professionals do it, starting with the top DOWN.

Playing from the bottom Up affects the RHYTHM of MELODY. Playing from the top DOWN affects ONLY the rhythm of accompaniment. Therefore, the second variant is obviously much better.

The best way is to make recording in both direction and compare them.

Offline beethovenfan01

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Quote
1. If you look at reliable score, you will see a QUARTER  NOTE but NOT an eighth note. I saw this  counterfeit  in somebody's score here on Forum as well, do not believe it.

2. This post is NOT about the tempo but about the  RHYTHM. Musician can change the tempo without killing the music. However, wrong RHYTHM destroys everything.

Please define reliable score. I checked IMSLP, found a score edited by Clara Schumann. Believe it or not, there was NO tempo marking for this piece. Perhaps what you are hung up on is not Schumann's mistake, but an editor's. I am curious, though, which edition you are referring to.

Concerning your argument about rhythm, you are wrong, I think. A teacher I respect very much said that the rhythm in Chopin's works (in this case, the Nocturne Op. 48 No. 1), and in Romantic music in general should vary within the general beat of the measure, for the sake of shape. That's how they themselves played. The whole point is that the melody is free and expressive, while the accompaniment is stable. Chopin ALWAYS practiced with a metronome, keeping the accompaniment steady within the beat of each measure. But you seem to be suggesting the opposite.

There might be a place for that somewhere. But in Traumerei? I wouldn't. In my examination of Traumerei, I didn't even find an accompaniment, per say. Rather, what may seem like accompaniment is actually counterpoint, rather like a slow fugue. There are melody lines everywhere, melody lines that can't be brought out clearly at the tempo you seem obsessed with promoting.

What you are unfortunately missing from your argument is the whole idea of interpretation. What interpretational choices give maximum effect to the emotions and thoughts you are communicating through your playing of the piece? If you want to play Traumerei at a fast tempo because you feel it should have significant movement, you are free to do that. If your audience enjoys it, then wonderful! I played it today myself, and found a little motion does wonders in bringing the melody alive--but a 100 quarter notes a minute is too much for me or anyone else to enjoy.

But please stop acting as though everyone but you is wrong! I take issue with your reference of Scripture to prove your point in your original post, not because of the Scripture itself, but because you're taking it out of context. If you knew that context, you would know that Jesus' teaching was directed at the Pharisees--legalists. Please do not be a legalist and act as though everyone but you is wrong. It makes this forum a very unpleasant place.

Practicing:
Bach Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 1
Shostakovich Preludes Op. 34
Scriabin Etude Op. 2 No. 1
Liszt Fantasie and Fugue on BACH

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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In two words: according to the book of  Nadezhda Golubovskaya, NO good musician will tolerate synchronous strike of all the hammers, this lack of Piano should be overcome by the distribution of these strikes in time.  However, amateurs do it from the bottom UP, while well educated professionals do it, starting with the top DOWN.

Playing from the bottom Up affects the RHYTHM of MELODY. Playing from the top DOWN affects ONLY the rhythm of accompaniment. Therefore, the second variant is obviously much better.


I don't think this is borne out by actual practice, for example one only needs to listen to the recordings of Paderewski and other "golden age" pianists to hear that they play "from the bottom up". Similarly, we find Thalberg recommending "the singing part coming in after the bass albeit with an almost imperceptible delay" in his preface to L'art du chant, and we can also observe that it is far more common to arpeggiate chords upwards than downwards. I think what your comment in reality refers to is the important interpretative question regarding: if we choose to dislocate the hands or parts, which [hand or part] should be played on the beat, and should the other be slightly before or slightly after? (of course this question also applies to the breaking of chords, bottom or top on the beat).
My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
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Offline mjames

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I'm so glad I no longer care about the score, it's such a liberating experience to just play something however the heck you want it to. Here you are arguing and writing paragraphs about a phrase being an eight note too long, 5 bpms too fast , a piano too loud; I'm here just enjoying the music - playing according to my own preferences.

Hey if Hoffmann, Siloti, Rachmaninoff could regularly ignore the score why can't i? I doubt Schumann himself played Traumerei according to the first edition, heck I bet he improvised new material during performances a la Chopin.  ;)

Offline dogperson

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I'm so glad I no longer care about the score, it's such a liberating experience to just play something however the heck you want it to. Here you are arguing and writing paragraphs about a phrase being an eight note too long, 5 bpms too fast , a piano too loud; I'm here just enjoying the music - playing according to my own preferences.

Hey if Hoffmann, Siloti, Rachmaninoff could regularly ignore the score why can't i? I doubt Schumann himself played Traumerei according to the first edition, heck I bet he improvised new material during performances a la Chopin.  ;)


 When I can play as well as Hoffmann, Siloti and  Rachmaninoff, I too Will start ignoring the score.

Offline mjames

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 When I can play as well as Hoffmann, Siloti and  Rachmaninoff, I too Will start ignoring the score.

Only compose fugues when you're as good as Bach
Only improvise music when you're as talented as Chopin
Only prodigies and de facto "greats" of music have the license to explore musical freedom and leniency towards the score.

You will probably never realize you are talented enough to fully express yourself because you mystify greats but whatever, do what you want.  ::) ::)

Offline clouseau

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Vladimir though I like your playing of "Traumerei", I can't quite agree with what you are writing. I admit having misunderstood the topic, thinking it was about the controversy of metronome markings.
The kind of "rhythmic ideal" you describe appeals more to classical composers but of course in its purest form it is nothing but a misconception. For even in recordings of the best Mozart interpreters, you will find slight (and sometimes not that slight) rubatos and a certain rhythmic elasticity. Not to speak about the music of the romantic era, where the focus is rarely on the perfect execution of a rhythm. That is not to say that all romantic music is without rhythm, on the contrary, rhythm is always there even in the heaviest rubato as long as the relative value of notes is kept within those agogic fluctuations.

Don't forget that in order to decide upon an interpretation, the score does not provide exhaustive information. You have to consider what is written on the score by the composer (urtext) but then also get some perspective about the music you are playing, what era is it, what style, which were the performance practices of that time, what do we know about the composer, the instruments of that time etc.

Of course, there is the amateurish way of playing where you just sit on the piano and play the notes in the score in a way that makes you happy, without bothering too much about those details. While there is nothing wrong with that, I believe trying to figure out as much as you can about the music and the interpretation of it will give you much more joy in the long run.

"What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune." - Rameau

Offline louispodesta

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So, here is what you can do.  You can lie and say that this piece (based on solo encore performance practice) is a separate piece.

However, there is no applied musicological basis for your argument/arguments based on the following recording of the chief teaching assistant's, (Fanny Davies), original analog recording of the Kinderszenen:

Offline michael_c

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That recording of the Kinderszenen by Fanny Davies is truly wonderful. Here's the whole cycle:



Offline perfect_pitch

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2 months on and he's still droning on about this??? Bloody hell...

FIND SOME NEW MUSIC TO PLAY VLADIMIR!!! EXPAND YOUR REPERTOIRE!!!

Offline vladimirdounin

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Please define reliable score. I checked IMSLP, found a score edited by Clara Schumann. Believe it or not, there was NO tempo marking for this piece. Perhaps what you are hung up on is not Schumann's mistake, but an editor's. I am curious, though, which edition you are referring to.

Henle Verlag is quite reliable. Peters is usually accurate as well. Clara Schumann is not. She did a lot of terrible things in her edition.  All researches are angry with her.

You can read a forum exactly on this matter:

https://www.henle.de/en/schumann-anniversary-2010/schumann-forum/traeumerei-reverie.html

Offline vladimirdounin

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Concerning your argument about rhythm, you are wrong, I think. A teacher I respect very much said that the rhythm in Chopin's works (in this case, the Nocturne Op. 48 No. 1), and in Romantic music in general should vary within the general beat of the measure, for the sake of shape. That's how they themselves played. The whole point is that the melody is free and expressive, while the accompaniment is stable. Chopin ALWAYS practiced with a metronome, keeping the accompaniment steady within the beat of each measure. But you seem to be suggesting the opposite.


I do not believe any teachers and do not respect any musical authorities before I hear: how do they play self?

Give us a chance to listen to your and your teacher's performance, and then we can discuss your and your teacher's statements seriously.  If it is really good - I am ready to learn from you and your teacher. It is never late, as you know.

Offline vladimirdounin

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There are melody lines everywhere, melody lines that can't be brought out clearly at the tempo you seem obsessed with promoting.

What you are unfortunately missing from your argument is the whole idea of interpretation. What interpretational choices give maximum effect to the emotions and thoughts you are communicating through your playing of the piece? If you want to play Traumerei at a fast tempo because you feel it should have significant movement, you are free to do that. If your audience enjoys it, then wonderful! I played it today myself, and found a little motion does wonders in bringing the melody alive--but a 100 quarter notes a minute is too much for me or anyone else to enjoy.


I suggested already in my November post to conduct a "blind test" on this topic in a serious scientific way.

Make your recording with your "wonders" in your tempo and let randomly chosen,  independent people to listen to your, my and, for example, Lang Lang's recordings. Then describe their reaction on tempos and interpretation. It would be very interesting and productive.

Offline vladimirdounin

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But please stop acting as though everyone but you is wrong! I take issue with your reference of Scripture to prove your point in your original post, not because of the Scripture itself, but because you're taking it out of context. If you knew that context, you would know that Jesus' teaching was directed at the Pharisees--legalists. Please do not be a legalist and act as though everyone but you is wrong. It makes this forum a very unpleasant place.


I am polite in my posts and answers. Why you are not? Who are you to order me?

Offline vladimirdounin

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I don't think this is borne out by actual practice, for example one only needs to listen to the recordings of Paderewski and other "golden age" pianists to hear that they play "from the bottom up". Similarly, we find Thalberg recommending "the singing part coming in after the bass albeit with an almost imperceptible delay" in his preface to L'art du chant, and we can also observe that it is far more common to arpeggiate chords upwards than downwards. I think what your comment in reality refers to is the important interpretative question regarding: if we choose to dislocate the hands or parts, which [hand or part] should be played on the beat, and should the other be slightly before or slightly after? (of course this question also applies to the breaking of chords, bottom or top on the beat).

Everything played ON beat sounds more clear, more strong for the audience. So, if we want to bring out some voice, to attract attention to some particular notes - we have to play them ON beat. All the rest becomes a kind of background.

Playing top not ON beat with a delay of accompaniment is typical for Chopin's and Liszt's music.
Why Schumann should be played in an opposite way?

We have a wonderful opportunity to play for each other and listen to. Why we have to waste time on verbal argumentation instead of recording and listening? Today it is so easy and simple.

Please, record your ideas in musical form and let me and all other forum's members to listen. If it sounds good - you are right.

Offline vladimirdounin

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I'm so glad I no longer care about the score, it's such a liberating experience to just play something however the heck you want it to. Here you are arguing and writing paragraphs about a phrase being an eight note too long, 5 bpms too fast , a piano too loud; I'm here just enjoying the music - playing according to my own preferences.

Hey if Hoffmann, Siloti, Rachmaninoff could regularly ignore the score why can't i? I doubt Schumann himself played Traumerei according to the first edition, heck I bet he improvised new material during performances a la Chopin.  ;)

Do not be selfish, please. Let us to listen to your enjoyable music.

Offline vladimirdounin

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 When I can play as well as Hoffmann, Siloti and  Rachmaninoff, I too Will start ignoring the score.

Probably, you remember that Hoffman in his book promises to prove TO ANYONE the fact  that  he/she does not read and understand the score properly and in full. We can look at the score for whole our life and still discover new and new important things in it.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Only compose fugues when you're as good as Bach
Only improvise music when you're as talented as Chopin
Only prodigies and de facto "greats" of music have the license to explore musical freedom and leniency towards the score.

You will probably never realize you are talented enough to fully express yourself because you mystify greats but whatever, do what you want.  ::) ::)

Nadezhda Golubovskaya told me once that there are NO second grade composers in the world. Because "the first grade composers"  would have committed a crime against humanity if they had not brought their own music to the people.

"The second grade composers" realize that nothing bad would happen, if they never show  their compositions to anyone. And so they have a decency not to show their music to the public.
Unfortunately, such composers DO NOT exist.

All other composers belong to much lower grades

Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir though I like your playing of "Traumerei", I can't quite agree with what you are writing. I admit having misunderstood the topic, thinking it was about the controversy of metronome markings.
The kind of "rhythmic ideal" you describe appeals more to classical composers but of course in its purest form it is nothing but a misconception. For even in recordings of the best Mozart interpreters, you will find slight (and sometimes not that slight) rubatos and a certain rhythmic elasticity. Not to speak about the music of the romantic era, where the focus is rarely on the perfect execution of a rhythm. That is not to say that all romantic music is without rhythm, on the contrary, rhythm is always there even in the heaviest rubato as long as the relative value of notes is kept within those agogic fluctuations.

Don't forget that in order to decide upon an interpretation, the score does not provide exhaustive information. You have to consider what is written on the score by the composer (urtext) but then also get some perspective about the music you are playing, what era is it, what style, which were the performance practices of that time, what do we know about the composer, the instruments of that time etc.

Of course, there is the amateurish way of playing where you just sit on the piano and play the notes in the score in a way that makes you happy, without bothering too much about those details. While there is nothing wrong with that, I believe trying to figure out as much as you can about the music and the interpretation of it will give you much more joy in the long run.


We have right to play rubato  (slightly extend some notes, but never compress and accelerate them without specific instruction from the composer or by some exceptional reason). I do play rubato in my first four recordings. I do delay my accompaniment in my first four recordings. Because I want to do so. These are my musical intentions and I control them in full.

In the rest of my recordings (in this post) I do not delay accompaniment because it is my intention again. Because many opponents here blamed me that I can not play both hands on the same beat. I just proved that I can but DO NOT WANT to. I play strictly on metronome's beat to show that there is no objective necessity to play somebody's else rhythm instead of Schumann's rhythm.

If someone is sure that his/her rhythm is better than Schumann wrote - let us to listen, please.
What I heard on You Tube instead of Schumann did not convince me. For me Schumann is better than any of these famous pianists.
 
Sorry for such a strange opinion (judging from comments).

Offline vladimirdounin

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So, here is what you can do.  You can lie and say that this piece (based on solo encore performance practice) is a separate piece.

However, there is no applied musicological basis for your argument/arguments based on the following recording of the chief teaching assistant's, (Fanny Davies), original analog recording of the Kinderszenen:



Thanks! It was interesting as a history but not so interesting as a music. I am not sure that even Clara was good enough to understand well her genius husband.  And this "chief teaching assistant's" sounds as an amateur with her "interpretation" full with her own fictions.

Offline vladimirdounin

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That recording of the Kinderszenen by Fanny Davies is truly wonderful. Here's the whole cycle:





Tastes differ. It is normal.

Offline vladimirdounin

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2 months on and he's still droning on about this??? Bloody hell...

FIND SOME NEW MUSIC TO PLAY VLADIMIR!!! EXPAND YOUR REPERTOIRE!!!

I am learning to do recordings not in studio but at home. This post is answering my opponents from the previous one. In my opinion musicians must argue with their music instead of talking and I do so.

Do you?

I proved, for example,  that my asynchronous accompaniment is my intention but not simply my lack of technique. No one did recording (even for a dollar per second) in tempo 100.  I did it for you in tempo 125 and 150.

I have a lot of plans for next recordings and it will be a new music, of course. If you do technical part of my recordings, I promise you 10  issues per day.

If I have to do it self, then I have only a few hours per month for this activity. 

Offline klavieronin

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In my opinion musicians must argue with their music instead of talking…

Vladimir, you've spent so much time and energy trying to prove that your interpretation of Traumerei is the only true and correct one. I'm sorry but you are fighting a loosing battle. Even if your interpretation is identical to how Schumann himself would have played, people still have their own tastes and opinions. No matter how hard you try you will never convince everybody. Why don't you take your own advice and save yourself all this trouble? Let the music speak for itself. If people like it, great, if not, that's their opinion and no harm done.

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Everything played ON beat sounds more clear, more strong for the audience. So, if we want to bring out some voice, to attract attention to some particular notes - we have to play them ON beat. All the rest becomes a kind of background.

Playing top not ON beat with a delay of accompaniment is typical for Chopin's and Liszt's music.
Why Schumann should be played in an opposite way?

This is a very strange comment. We often draw attention to specific points of importance by placing them slightly OFFbeat. "I am about to say something important" or "I am about to say something (short pause for emphasis) important". There is also Liszt's description of Chopin's rubato: “Look at these trees, the wind plays in the leaves, stirs up life among them, the tree remains the same, that is Chopinesque rubato.” The trees being the foundation, the accompaniment. See also bel canto opera: does the singer follow the orchestra or the orchestra follow the singer? Mikuli on Chopin: "While the singing hand, either irresolutely lingering or as in passionate speech eagerly anticipating with a certain impatient vehemence, freed the truth of the musical expression from all rhythmical fetters, the other, the accompanying hand, continued to play strictly in time."



Playing top not ON beat with a delay of accompaniment is typical for Chopin's and Liszt's music.
Why Schumann should be played in an opposite way?

I agree, with the playing top NOT on beat part (though it appears to contradict what you said immediately previously), but..
this "delay of accompaniment" which you are advocating, i.e. typically right before left, simply goes against everything we can observe and read regarding performance practice in the romantic era. Listen to Paderewski playing the slow movement of the Moonlight, for example. I've already quoted Thalberg on the subject; de Pachmann in Chopin is another example of many which we can sample on record.


Ultimately, of course, klaveronin is correct. You can play it whatever way you like, and if the audience enjoy it all is well.

Lastly, it's not incumbent upon anyone to produce their rendition of Traumerei just because they disagree with you, and this idea of a "scientific" test to see which version people prefer (and thus which interpretation) isn't in fact scientific at all. It would only be scientific if all the interpretations produced were by the same pianist, on the same piano and under similar recording conditions and quality. You're introducing lots of extraneous variables and qualities into the equation and thus invalidating any hypothetical experiment.
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Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir, you've spent so much time and energy trying to prove that your interpretation of Traumerei is the only true and correct one. I'm sorry but you are fighting a loosing battle. Even if your interpretation is identical to how Schumann himself would have played, people still have their own tastes and opinions. No matter how hard you try you will never convince everybody. Why don't you take your own advice and save yourself all this trouble? Let the music speak for itself. If people like it, great, if not, that's their opinion and no harm done.

 
I'm working on the book "The laws of beauty in music, unknown to music schools", for which reason all my contacts with ignorant and even stupid people are very important to me.

These contacts give me an opportunity to know the mentality of my readers, their ability or inability to understand my reasoning and beliefs, to find explanations available to their level. 
After the book is released, this opportunity will no longer exist for me.

On the other hand, smart readers can do to me and make valuable comments, which I gratefully accept.

Offline perfect_pitch

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I'm working on the book "The laws of beauty in music, unknown to music schools", for which reason all my contacts with ignorant and even stupid people are very important to me.

These contacts give me an opportunity to know the mentality of my readers, their ability or inability to understand my reasoning and beliefs, to find explanations available to their level. 
After the book is released, this opportunity will no longer exist for me.

On the other hand, smart readers can do to me and make valuable comments, which I gratefully accept.

No, you're looking at people who agree with you, in an effort to validate your ideas; just as other people who claimed they were abducted by aliens try to find others who share the experience, and reckon that anyone who doesn't believe them is against them.

I hardly think that someone with your ego trip that has riddled this web-site claiming to know exactly how Schumanns music should be performed in both the Rhythm and the Tempo, should be listened to and accepted, as opposed to the other Music schools who do NOT share your ideas, nor agree with them.

Your attempt at trying to convince this piano web-site (which is full of people who play, teacher and perform in a professional manner) has been a rather deflated one, and very few, if any seem convinced. Please kindly take your notions and repeatedly drone on and on about them to someone else who may agree with you.

I proved, for example,  that my asynchronous accompaniment is my intention but not simply my lack of technique.

And in a piano forum, yet again (as mentioned, filled with people who play... yada yada yada), it seems that although we are aware that your asynchronous playing is not from sloppy technique - but rather an awful notion that is not convincing in the slightest to many people who have played this exact piece before.

It hasn't convinced us, so please stop trying... because if you continue to bleat on about this, the people on this forum will start to look upon you like a...

Offline vladimirdounin

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This is a very strange comment. We often draw attention to specific points of importance by placing them slightly OFFbeat. "I am about to say something important" or "I am about to say something (short pause for emphasis) important". There is also Liszt's description of Chopin's rubato: “Look at these trees, the wind plays in the leaves, stirs up life among them, the tree remains the same, that is Chopinesque rubato.” The trees being the foundation, the accompaniment. See also bel canto opera: does the singer follow the orchestra or the orchestra follow the singer? Mikuli on Chopin: "While the singing hand, either irresolutely lingering or as in passionate speech eagerly anticipating with a certain impatient vehemence, freed the truth of the musical expression from all rhythmical fetters, the other, the accompanying hand, continued to play strictly in time."

1. If you are just walking with a dozen of your friends in a crowd that has come to watch the changing of the guard, no one will pay attention to you even if you are all in military uniform. But thousands of eyes will focus on a few sentries that will go beautifully in the foot.

Relatively unorganized notes will always be just a background for notes on a clear, understandable beat.

2. In a good theater, a good orchestra under the direction of a good conductor must follow the singer and not command him. In the bad, of course, the opposite is true.

Offline vladimirdounin

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I agree, with the playing top NOT on beat part (though it appears to contradict what you said immediately previously), but..
this "delay of accompaniment" which you are advocating, i.e. typically right before left, simply goes against everything we can observe and read regarding performance practice in the romantic era. Listen to Paderewski playing the slow movement of the Moonlight, for example. I've already quoted Thalberg on the subject; de Pachmann in Chopin is another example of many which we can sample on record.



XXI century is very far from "romantic era".

From my 50 years long concert experience, I know the way of musical communication only with my contemporaries and rely on it,  when I teach others.  I know that it works  for MY era and do not care if the audience of Romantic era would except my way to play or not.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Lastly, it's not incumbent upon anyone to produce their rendition of Traumerei just because they disagree with you, and this idea of a "scientific" test to see which version people prefer (and thus which interpretation) isn't in fact scientific at all. It would only be scientific if all the interpretations produced were by the same pianist, on the same piano and under similar recording conditions and quality. You're introducing lots of extraneous variables and qualities into the equation and thus invalidating any hypothetical experiment.

In spite of all your objections the real life conducts these experiments around us on a permanent basis. And a lot of musicians with very good verbal abilities  eventually drop music and start another business instead,  just to survive.

Offline vladimirdounin

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It hasn't convinced us, so please stop trying... because if you continue to BLEAT on about this, the people on this forum will start to look upon you like a...




Who authorized you here to BARK on behalf of all?  I will answer you only when you learn to talk politely.

Offline klavieronin

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I'm working on the book "The laws of beauty in music, unknown to music schools", for which reason all my contacts with ignorant and even stupid people are very important to me.

These contacts give me an opportunity to know the mentality of my readers, their ability or inability to understand my reasoning and beliefs, to find explanations available to their level.

Vladimir, judging from the quote above it sounds like you expect your readers to be ignorant and stupid. Telling people they are ignorant and stupid and talking down to them probably isn't the best way to encourage people to read your book.

(I'd consider changing the name of your book also. I'm not sure if it's a translation thing but it comes across rather pompous and self-righteous.)

Offline perfect_pitch

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I will answer you only when you learn to talk politely.

I did talk politely - not one swear word in my entire post... It may be riddled with a little condescension, but most of your post history is slathered in it; so you don't get to, or even have the right to lecture me about talking politely.

Can I ask why you continue to drone on about this subject, when clearly the other users have voiced their disdain for your idea???

I play strictly on metronome's beat to show that there is no objective necessity to play somebody's else rhythm instead of Schumann's rhythm.

I love the irony here... the problem is that you aren't completely playing on the beat when you play your asynchronous LH - the RH maybe, but the LH isn't... so you are in fact, NOT playing Schumann's rhythm. Also, because of it, it blurs the harmonies with the pedal and there's an unusual amount of dissonance associated with your asynchronous playing.

Who authorized you here to BARK on behalf of all?  

See if you can read between the lines in everyones response... you'll get it eventually.

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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2. In a good theater, a good orchestra under the direction of a good conductor must follow the singer and not command him. In the bad, of course, the opposite is true.

This is my opinion too. In piano terms, this is an analogy for melody and accompaniment..
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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XXI century is very far from "romantic era".

From my 50 years long concert experience, I know the way of musical communication only with my contemporaries and rely on it,  when I teach others.  I know that it works  for MY era and do not care if the audience of Romantic era would except my way to play or not.

But you say you want to be authentic to Schumann's music, so you should care about this. But it's fine with me, if you think what you do works, keep doing it.
My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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I love the irony here... the problem is that you aren't completely playing on the beat when you play your asynchronous LH - the RH maybe, but the LH isn't... so you are in fact, NOT playing Schumann's rhythm. Also, because of it, it blurs the harmonies with the pedal and there's an unusual amount of dissonance associated with your asynchronous playing.


To be fair, that's not per se the fault of playing with desynchronised hands, it's poor pedalling. If you play with hands desynchronised, then you need to be precise about pedal changes, probably more so than normally. I don't have the faintest idea why left after right is being used: the norm is left before right, and in addition to having quoted various distinguished people on the concept, I'll add the point that left BEFORE right gives the harmonic overtones of the bass the chance to blossom before the melody arrives, creating a fuller sound. The most famous  (infamous?) example is this:


Though I often believe in using left before right, I think it is overdone here and ends up sounding like an affectation.
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Offline vladimirdounin

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Lastly, it's not incumbent upon anyone to produce their rendition of Traumerei just because they disagree with you, and this idea of a "scientific" test to see which version people prefer (and thus which interpretation) isn't in fact scientific at all. It would only be scientific if all the interpretations produced were by the same pianist, on the same piano and under similar recording conditions and quality. You're introducing lots of extraneous variables and qualities into the equation and thus invalidating any hypothetical experiment.

I am the same pianist, I produced all the interpretations on the same piano and under similar recording conditions and quality. Where do you see "extraneous variables"?

Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir, judging from the quote above it sounds like you expect your readers to be ignorant and stupid. Telling people they are ignorant and stupid and talking down to them probably isn't the best way to encourage people to read your book.

(I'd consider changing the name of your book also. I'm not sure if it's a translation thing but it comes across rather pompous and self-righteous.)

Honest opponents  should not quote only the first part of my answer and cut the most important final sentence:
"On the other hand, smart readers can do to me and make valuable comments, which I gratefully accept."
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