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Topic: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4 (Read 3283 times)

beethovenfan01

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Posts: 288

Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

on: February 17, 2018, 10:55:47 PM

I wonder ... how much the one influenced the other. I just realized that today. What do y'all think? It's like Rachmaninoff went and twisted "Thou art so like a flower" into "Thou art so like a tornado."

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Practicing:
Bach Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 1
Shostakovich Preludes Op. 34
Scriabin Etude Op. 2 No. 1
Liszt Fantasie and Fugue on BACH

georgey

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Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 11:20:13 PM

I agree. I think Rach may have been influenced by the Chopin for first 50 seconds. The Chopin is just a fleeting happy, beautiful single thought that is over in less than a minute. Rach in minor key continues.

Now I am going to research the choral theme in last mvt of Mendelssohn 2nd piano trio. Either he stole this from the Db major section of Chopin Scherzo #3, or visa versa. I heard the Mendelssohn for the first time a couple fays ago (great recording by Mendelssohn piano trio in Centaur label). The Chopin and Mendelssohn give me goose bumps here, as does Chopin prelude #3, op. 28.

_________________________________________

Edit: I completed my research (30 seconds).

Chopin Scherzo #3 written 1839

Mendelssohn piano trio #2 written 1845.

I have my answer. (PS, I know the choral theme was written in 1600's, but I have little doubt where the inspiration came from for Mendelssohn to use this.)

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beethovenfan01

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Posts: 288

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 12:58:12 AM

Another interesting comparison a piano professor I know (Alexandre Dossin) came up with during a lesson? He compared a specific feature about Bach's Prelude in E minor (from WTC Book I), and Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 2 ...

Notice the mid-range two-note chords that are like their own voice--in the Bach, and in the Chopin. What do you think? A viable comparison?

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Practicing:
Bach Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 1
Shostakovich Preludes Op. 34
Scriabin Etude Op. 2 No. 1
Liszt Fantasie and Fugue on BACH

clouseau

Full Member
Posts: 145

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 01:18:20 AM

Though the pieces do have structural, harmonic and stylistic differences as well as quite different characters, they do share a common theme.

Another popular case, (and according to some, the reason why Chopin didn't publish it) is some motivic similarity between Chopin's Phantasie Impromptu and Moscheles Impromptu in E flat (

)

Quite interestingly, it seems that Scriabin might also have been influenced by a Prelude of Chopin. See similarities between Chopin's op.28 No.6 and Scriabin's Op.11 No.4

Hard to give a definite answer to your question. The incorporation of a pattern in a broader sense, that a composer finds somewhere and decides to use consciously, is usually rendered unrecognizable, because of the peculiarities and the individual vision the composer has. The means might be similar, but the end is always different so that its impossible to say that something has been stolen/copied.

The Preludes are a unique case in Chopin's compositions, Schumann describing them as "sketches, beginnings of studies, or, if you will, ruins, a mad medley of eagle's feathers". Though just sketches, to me they present Chopin "the visionary", as they are a collection of brand new ideas waiting to be developed.

That Chopin's Op.28 has inspired later composers is certain, but it might not always be in a so obvious way.

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"What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune." - Rameau

georgey

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Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 01:31:15 AM

Quote from: beethovenfan01 on February 18, 2018, 12:58:12 AM

Another interesting comparison a piano professor I know (Alexandre Dossin) came up with during a lesson? He compared a specific feature about Bach's Prelude in E minor (from WTC Book I), and Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 2 ...

Notice the mid-range two-note chords that are like their own voice--in the Bach, and in the Chopin. What do you think? A viable comparison?

I am familiar with both. My ear does not pick up the similarities of these. I would have to do an analysis. I wrote a classical guitar etude many years ago that is based on the right hand figure of the Chopin etude and I also transcribed and played about 8 of the preludes from the WTC for guitar, for what that is worth (about $0.00).

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mjames

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Posts: 2557

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 03:29:49 AM

Quote from: clouseau on February 18, 2018, 01:18:20 AM

Quite interestingly, it seems that Scriabin might also have been influenced by a Prelude of Chopin. See similarities between Chopin's op.28 No.6 and Scriabin's Op.11 No.4

THE GUY THAT WROTE MAZURKAS, WALTZES, IMPROMPTUS IN THE "STYLE OF CHOPIN' AND BASICALLY INCORPORATED CHOPINESQUE MANNERISMS IN HIS YOUTH MIGHT HAVE BEEN INSPIRED BY ONE OF CHOPIN'S MOST WELL KNOWN WORKS?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't say.

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klavieronin

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Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 03:52:47 AM

There are elements of Beethoven in there as well. Listen to the 4th mvt. of Op.2, No.1 bb.34-40 and compare it to bb.22-23 & 27-28 of the Rachmaninoff.

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georgey

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Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 03:53:04 AM

Quote from: mjames on February 18, 2018, 03:29:49 AM

You don't say.

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mjames

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Posts: 2557

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 04:00:40 AM

Sorry if I'm being rude, it's just such a "duh" moment. Scriabin was literally Chopin 2.0 up to I don't know, he showed he was good with orchestral music.

Chopin has shown a trend of incorporating folk tunes into his Scherzi, the middle section in his no. 1 is based off a christmas carol I think. Well not much of a trend, is it.

Mendelssohn was also fond off Chopin's works (it was mutual, Chopin assigned Mend's works to his students); Chopin's a flat prelude was highly praised by Mendy.

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clouseau

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Posts: 145

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 04:06:40 AM

Quote from: mjames on February 18, 2018, 03:29:49 AM

THE GUY THAT WROTE MAZURKAS, WALTZES, IMPROMPTUS IN THE "STYLE OF CHOPIN' AND BASICALLY INCORPORATED CHOPINESQUE MANNERISMS IN HIS YOUTH MIGHT HAVE BEEN INSPIRED BY ONE OF CHOPIN'S MOST WELL KNOWN WORKS?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't say.

Good old mjames. Nice to see you as well

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"What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune." - Rameau

georgey

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Posts: 936

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 04:10:51 AM

Quote from: klavieronin on February 18, 2018, 03:52:47 AM

There are elements of Beethoven in there as well. Listen to the 4th mvt. of Op.2, No.1 bb.34-40 and compare it to bb.22-23 & 27-28 of the Rachmaninoff.

Not familiar with the Rach until now. Had to count measures in the Rach. I did not need to hear the Beethoven. I hear the similarity.

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mjames

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Posts: 2557

Re: Compare Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3 and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical No. 4

Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 04:15:22 AM

Here's a Chopin concerto:

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