Arm Weight and Flat Fingers, ppp, and...

[marik1]

What I did not agree with was the idea that you can tell a good teacher (who can do such things) merely through such things are recitals. That is a different thing, and I would never go that route in trying to find a teacher for myself.

I guess, I need to explain what I meant. The main source of almost all technical problems (and injuries) is physical tension. This is also one of the most difficult things to teach and teacher should know the methods and secrets how to do it. This is first and foremost indication of good teaching. Usually, such experienced teachers also have very good understanding of musical goals, etc.

If you see consistency in the teachers work, where the students play with freedom, relaxed hands and finger work, with good understanding of musical processes and expression then it is the first indication that they were taught by a good and experienced teacher. Also, as a rule such students will be playing much more advanced repertoire on a much higher professional level. I guess, one needs to know what to look for...

Needless to notice, a lot of even very experienced college professors often do not have experience of working with beginners, so they might not be able to help even adults when things come down to basic "patching the holes" and dealing with basic problems. Of course, there are other factors, but I myself would never ever consider giving my own kids to somebody to teach until I see how that particular teacher's students play and to see that consistency of technical freedom and musical expression.

Hope that explains it.

Best, M

[marik1]

A chord.

Usually, in chords there are three components 1) Finger work 2) Work of wrist, and 3) Weight of arm.

Depending on a musical context, style, and many other factors (including means of technical execution) some of those components can be dominating. For example, chord in the beginning of Petrushka cannot be executed with arm weight and played mostly with fingers and some wrist motion. On the contrary, say to give a huge sound in final chordal climax in finale of Rachmaninov 3rd Conerto can be played only with arm weight and extremely flexible wrist work.
Lots of chordal work in Scriabin (esp. in 'flying' type of pieces) are played with finger work only.
So "it depends".

Best, M

[keypeg]

It seems we're much more on the same page now.

I guess, I need to explain what I meant. The main source of almost all technical problems (and injuries) is physical tension. This is also one of the most difficult things to teach and teacher should know the methods and secrets how to do it. This is first and foremost indication of good teaching. Usually, such experienced teachers also have very good understanding of musical goals, etc. 

This makes sense now.

If you see consistency in the teachers work, where the students play with freedom, relaxed hands and finger work, with good understanding of musical processes and expression then it is the first indication that they were taught by a good and experienced teacher. Also, as a rule such students will be playing much more advanced repertoire on a much higher professional level. I guess, one needs to know what to look for...

Your last sentence in this paragraph is key.  When someone not experienced in music, or poorly taught in music, looks for a teacher, it is easy for an unscrupulous or ignorant "teacher" to b.s. them.  Without knowledge one can be impressed by the wrong things, and overlook trivial seeming things that actually matter.  In fact, those are the kinds of things I am concerned about.

Needless to notice, a lot of even very experienced college professors often do not have experience of working with beginners, so they might not be able to help even adults when things come down to basic "patching the holes" and dealing with basic problems.

Exactly!  One phenomenon I've been following in recent years is where adults try to circumvent frivolous teaching of adults of the fun! fun! variety by going to colleges and various academies.  There is now a kind of "adult market" so slots and programs are opened up for this "group" - but with little thought behind it.  In one example, an absolute beginner was put into a music theory course - no prerequisites needed - and was in the middle of species counterpoint.  Turns out that he did not yet know what intervals were.  In another, an adult beginner was being shown the fine points of bringing out certain voices in fine interpretation of piano pieces --- the adult had not yet learned how to play loud and soft.  There is quite a mess out there.  There are glimmers of light here and there and if you find a source, you may find yourself in a bright beacon, but they're hard to find and hard to know what to look for.


 Of course, there are other factors, but I myself would never ever consider giving my own kids to somebody to teach until I see how that particular teacher's students play and to see that consistency of technical freedom and musical expression.

Hope that explains it.

Best, M
[/quote]

[hardy_practice]

Lots of chordal work in Scriabin (esp. in 'flying' type of pieces) are played with finger work only.
So "it depends".

With thirds "it depends", but chords always require arm-weight.  Could you post a Scriabin example?   

[marik1]

Your last sentence in this paragraph is key.  When someone not experienced in music, or poorly taught in music, looks for a teacher, it is easy for an unscrupulous or ignorant "teacher" to b.s. them.  Without knowledge one can be impressed by the wrong things, and overlook trivial seeming things that actually matter.  In fact, those are the kinds of things I am concerned about.

Indeed, that's a huge problem and for a non professional is extremely hard to read into. That's exactly the reason why I suggested to go to a local festival/competition/or class recitals. If you see some kids playing consistently on a higher professional and musicianship level and tend to win top prices then most likely they are coming from a much more experienced teacher--there is much more chance that teacher could help you with your problems.

Another general rule of thumb--the better and more experienced teacher--the less car salesman b.s. you get--those do not have to prove themselves. If a teacher starts talking about the stiffness of your pianistic apparatus (if you have any pianistic problems then that's probably the very first source) and how to relax your hands, how to start playing free of any physical tension, or else starts talking about musical goals and means of expression then I'd start listening to that teacher because most likely s/he knows a bit more as opposed to the one who tells how freaking awesome s/he is...

Hope that's of help.

Best, M 

[marik1]

With thirds "it depends", but chords always require arm-weight.  Could you post a Scriabin example?   

Always? Good luck playing Petrushka with arm weight...

As for Scriabin there would be NUMEROUS examples... from top of my head most of the Finale of Sonata no. 4,  Sonata no. 5, Etudes, Poems, almost entire late Scriabin--you name it...

[keypeg]

That's exactly the reason why I suggested to go to a local festival/competition/or class recitals. If you see some kids playing consistently on a higher professional and musicianship level and tend to win top prices then most likely they are coming from a much more experienced teacher--there is much more chance that teacher could help you with your problems.

Now we have gone full circle.  A person who is not a musician or pianist will not be able to tell what they are hearing.  You could be impressed by "fast and furious".  You also will not be able to tell whether these students have been practising only that one piece for the whole year.  I have to repeat what I've been told by teachers getting transfer student who play this way, and then they discover that the students did not learn to read music, were led by finger numbers and imitative choreography.

No, if I were coming in out of the cold today, first:
- do research and find out what needs to be learned (which might in the least be defined in terms of skills and knowledge)
- tell a prospective teacher that you want to get the skills needed to play the instrument, including reading skills and the necessary theory
- listen carefully when a teacher talks about what he plans to teach, what is expectations are.  If it's full of "favourite songs", "fast progression", "admiration by others" - stay away!
- have a trial lesson, paid for, and observe what is done and said, observe yourself being observed
- when all is done, is there some kind of a plan, are there goals --- or does this person whip out some method book and start and page 1

things like that

[marik1]

Now we have gone full circle.  A person who is not a musician or pianist will not be able to tell what they are hearing.  You could be impressed by "fast and furious".  You also will not be able to tell whether these students have been practising only that one piece for the whole year.  I have to repeat what I've been told by teachers getting transfer student who play this way, and then they discover that the students did not learn to read music, were led by finger numbers and imitative choreography.

No, if I were coming in out of the cold today, first:
- do research and find out what needs to be learned (which might in the least be defined in terms of skills and knowledge)
- tell a prospective teacher that you want to get the skills needed to play the instrument, including reading skills and the necessary theory
- listen carefully when a teacher talks about what he plans to teach, what is expectations are.  If it's full of "favourite songs", "fast progression", "admiration by others" - stay away!
- have a trial lesson, paid for, and observe what is done and said, observe yourself being observed
- when all is done, is there some kind of a plan, are there goals --- or does this person whip out some method book and start and page 1

things like that

I think instead of hijacking this thread about arm weight that would actually be a wonderful idea to start a new thread about how to find a good and right for you teacher, with a wisdom and collective ideas and concerns from other members of this community...

Best, M 

[keypeg]

Agreed. 

[hardy_practice]

Always? Good luck playing Petrushka with arm weight...

As for Scriabin there would be NUMEROUS examples... from top of my head most of the Finale of Sonata no. 4,  Sonata no. 5, Etudes, Poems, almost entire late Scriabin--you name it...

A bar would suffice.

[louispodesta]

Sorry for the late reply, but I spent the day almost finishing learning the "Last Movement" of the Prokofiev 1st.  Then, in my afternoon session, I listened to originally recorded Gershwin recordings.

As I suggested before, taking the (U.S.)  200 thousand piano teachers to task, would of course result in immense push-back.  That is especially true since Lang Lang can no longer play a Full Schedule due to his permanent injury.

Most importantly, his Agent has announced that there will be no disruption in his teaching and Master Class Schedule.  This is a man whose coach (Gary Graffman) has been unable to play since 1974 due to a paralyzed right forearm.  (Lang Lang's is the left forearm.)

Hey, you guys tell me.  My read is:  this is the time to put aside the massive Piano Pedagogy Fraud, which millions of students pay a great deal of money, for nothing!  That means: they quit after three to five years, and will all know it.

However (given the proper discourse), we may be able to make a pro-active difference for the future, for what might be the first time!

[keypeg]

.

[louispodesta]

A bar would suffice.

I cannot let this pass.

1)  For the record:  the "Petrouchka" was written and dedicated to Arthur ("Artur") Rubinstein.  He could not play this piece, even as with the Russians, if he was on Methamphetamines.

2)  I have original recordings of Scriabin, and he played in the "Original Performance Practice" along with everyone else who matriculated in the middle to late 19th Century.  Just like Claude Debussy's recordings elucidate, you can change the name of the Leopard, but you cannot change their spots.

[outin]

Sometimes it's like being in a slightly weird alternative reality here...

[keypeg]

.

[hardy_practice]

Sometimes it's like being in a slightly weird alternative reality here...

More random sh*t reality.

[mrcreosote]

I thought the question was about bad teacher, rather than bad student... In fact, there are no bad students, there are only bad teachers... With a good teacher it is normal for normal (not exceptionally talented) kids by the age of 12-14 to play big repertoire, like Rachmaninov/Grieg Concerti, Chopin Scherzi, or Ballades, Prokofiev Sonatas, etc. on a high professional level.

Wow, I would strongly disagree with this.  Mere "normal" (merely talented?) playing Rach concertos?  And comparing Rach and Grieg in the same breath - the Grieg concerto is "nothing" compared to the Rach.  Prok Sonata 7 memorization:  except for Precipitato is extremely difficult with patterns rivaling randomness (no chunks here, folks.)

The reality of this might be that only kids with gifted memorization skills make it to this level.  The ones with the bad memories may be dropped or give up when they realize what is required of them - to memorize everything.

Myself, not only is my memory atrocious, my speed of mental recall is quite slow.  (Maybe you could tell that by what I just said.)

[ronde_des_sylphes]

1)  For the record:  the "Petrouchka" was written and dedicated to Arthur ("Artur") Rubinstein.  He could not play this piece, even as with the Russians, if he was on Methamphetamines.

Rather OT, but he performed it at Carnegie Hall.

[mrcreosote]

This part I agree with.  What I did not agree with was the idea that you can tell a good teacher (who can do such things) merely through such things are recitals. That is a different thing, and I would never go that route in trying to find a teacher for myself.

I'm faced with the same problem, trying to find a teacher.  The first thing I thought was to see how well they played, so I went to youtube.  Not much content there in my neck of the woods, Greensburg PA (Seton Hill college in particular.)  But there does seem to be a correlation between how well regarded a teacher is and how well their students do at recitals.

But it could be like in Olden Times, that the conservatories only accepted kids with exceptional talent to begin with and then focused on interpretation and refinement - a "finishing school" if you will.  NOT an engineering school where they teach how to keep a beautiful edifice from collapsing.

[mrcreosote]

Someone please name a single thing that can 'only' be done with arm weight.


Show me a well-known passage and name a speed; I'll find ten pianists blowing it away with their 'pathetic' finger action.

Forget about what anyone says here about AW.  Watch the interview where Maurizio Pollini says that the AW tip Rubinstein gave him when he was something like 18 years old, was on of the most important things anyone ever told him.  Rubinstein said he could practice endlessly without getting tired by using AW.  This reaffirms that AW is a technique for reducing tension, in particular the shoulders.  Some say it produces a lusher tone, as is said about Rubinstein's playing.  (Check out how a young Rubinstein does full AW "drops" in Chopin's Heroic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFlyKTyFfrs

Finger action is independent from AW.  There is no way to determine how much AW is being used during finger action - you'd have to have force sensors in the keys to do that.

[mrcreosote]

I think instead of hijacking this thread about arm weight that would actually be a wonderful idea to start a new thread about how to find a good and right for you teacher, with a wisdom and collective ideas and concerns from other members of this community...

Agreed

[hardy_practice]

Finger action is independent from AW.  There is no way to determine how much AW is being used during finger action - you'd have to have force sensors in the keys to do that.

No, plenty of needle EMG.  It's very unfortunate no study has done that.

[louispodesta]

Rather OT, but he performed it at Carnegie Hall.

And, he recorded it when and where?  This is a man who had over 230 recording sessions, the largest in history.

Unfortunately, he did record the two major Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos, which are in a word: Hilarious!  He couldn't even remotely perform them up to tempo.

And, while you are at it, please re-produce the NY Times Review of this great Petrouchka performance.

Thanks.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

https://www.allmusic.com/album/arthur-rubinstein-the-complete-album-collection-mw0002253499

CD 140.

It's not incumbent upon me to produce a press review.
You said, quote, "he could not play this piece".

[marik1]

Wow, I would strongly disagree with this.  Mere "normal" (merely talented?) playing Rach concertos?  And comparing Rach and Grieg in the same breath - the Grieg concerto is "nothing" compared to the Rach.  

Rachmaninov 1st Concerto is comparable to Grieg.

Prok Sonata 7 memorization:  except for Precipitato is extremely difficult with patterns rivaling randomness (no chunks here, folks.)

The reality of this might be that only kids with gifted memorization skills make it to this level.  The ones with the bad memories may be dropped or give up when they realize what is required of them - to memorize everything.

 I learnt Prok 7th when I was 16yo in 3 weeks for a concert performance--I don't remember any memory problems. Memorization is also a skill every normal kid can be trained.

[mrcreosote]

Rachmaninov 1st Concerto is comparable to Grieg.

 I learnt Prok 7th when I was 16yo in 3 weeks for a concert performance--I don't remember any memory problems. Memorization is also a skill every normal kid can be trained.

If you meant Grieg, just say Grieg.  "Rach" an "Grieg" are different levels at face value.

Don't imply every normal kid can be trained to do what you did.  Prok 7 in 3 weeks is extremely talented.  You can't teach talent.  Again, unfortunately in piano, if you don't have the memory chops, forget about concertizing.

[keypeg]

I learnt Prok 7th when I was 16yo in 3 weeks for a concert performance--I don't remember any memory problems. Memorization is also a skill every normal kid can be trained.

You don't want to discuss the teaching issue, yet how can one get away from it?  "every normal kid can be trained" ..... so what training was behind that? what underlying knowledge?  If this doesn't get addressed we're right back to the kind of response you got, namely "talent" and "chops". :/

How many years did that 16 year old have?  With good teachers?

[mrcreosote]

I was watching a young Lisitsa playing Standchen and she definitely was not using arm weight.  Her hands were floating over the keys.

I've found to get effective ppp, I have to "regulate" my arm weight.  It's like the amount of arm weight establishes my volume.

[thierry13]

Which Lisitsa video are you referring to? Is it this one?

If so, the way her hands "float" is no indication of how much arm weight she is using when her fingers are actually contacting the keys. At times she is indeed using almost none, relying solely on small weightless motions to press down the keys. This is not a type of playing I would recommend for anybody wanting to develop a reliable way to control their sound, and she is only using this because she has insane technical facility and can get away with it. When she is playing the melody notes, however, I can guarantee you that her fingers are very well connected to her "AW" as you put it. She actually uses varying degrees of it most of the time, it's simply her way of releasing the notes that gives you the impression that she isn't using any.

[thierry13]

If you meant Grieg, just say Grieg.  "Rach" an "Grieg" are different levels at face value.

Don't imply every normal kid can be trained to do what you did.  Prok 7 in 3 weeks is extremely talented.  You can't teach talent.  Again, unfortunately in piano, if you don't have the memory chops, forget about concertizing.

I do agree with you that learning and performing prok 7 well at 16 is in 3 weeks is impressive, and is indeed a feat that requires either great talent, or incredible discipline and dedication. I think Marik's point is that with said incredible discipline and dedication, people who would otherwise be perceived as "normal" could achieve it, which is true. I guess the middle ground would be to say that such discipline and dedication is, although not as rare as that much raw talent, not very common either.

It is also true that memorization is something anybody can master. Then again, if memory is even a concern for somebody, they shouldn't really be thinking about concertizing in the first place...

[visitor]

Rach
Prok
learnt

 

[pianoplunker]

I'm a firm believer in AW. 

However, I simply cannot believe people react full arm weight when playing ppp - having 95% of the finger load on the supporting fingers and not the playing ones challenges my mechanical engineering expertise.

I'm also guessing AW is not used with Flat Fingers.

I also find that when using full AW, I will get tension in my hands (not fingers or wrists).  Even if a perfect arch is maintained from the finger tips to the elbows, muscle force is still required because the arch does not have "buttresses."

I think arm weight plays a role almost all of the time since arm weight supports and controls  the wrist which supports and controls the fingers. When a virtuoso glides without showing finger movement, it is because there is not much finger movement after the arm and wrist. They all work together even if ppp. I am no virtuoso myself, just someone who used to have bouts of tendenitis in my wrist, mainly because of all arm weight ( no wrist) or all fingers ( no wrist or arm ).  Once I started  sitting with my elbows slightly higher than the keys, and keeping my hands on the keys, arm weight/wrist/fingers became natural and have had no tendinitus for almost 10 years now. It might all be anecdotal, just sharing my experience.

[timothy42b]

I am not necessarily asserting that it is, but asking:  could it be?

Could it be that arm weight for the piano is the same as chi or ki in martial arts?

As normally described, as a mysterious energy field of some kind, it does not exist.  However it is an extremely useful metaphor to describe movement that is relaxed, coordinated, and at the "unconscious mastery" level to an unusual degree. 

Experienced practitioners understand this.  Beginners are taught to actually believe in the energy existence, and some never progress beyond that point. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Not all notes need be played with isolated finger actions and a small lift and drop of parts of the body can take away the need to "press" into a key with the finger. These can be micro hops which are difficult to notice or larger lifts and drops, also with good technique they can be produced by lifting a finger and allowing it to fall with a combination of intent and natural force.