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Unpopular Opinions (Read 4108 times)

Offline ranjit

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #100 on: July 31, 2021, 01:19:01 AM »

Offline j_tour

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #101 on: July 31, 2021, 02:19:07 AM »
Not yet  ;D

Well, well.

What we got here is, failure to communicate!

Ain't that right!

Choose sides wisely, boy:  for this is the thread of unpopular opinions!

(Yes, I am kidding:  I admire your enthusiasm and your having shared so many of your own recordings.  I'm just a mean old bastard who seldom bothers to make my own recordings).

;D
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline j_tour

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #102 on: August 12, 2021, 06:21:11 AM »
I think these days this is an unpopular opinon.

Latin in reconstructed pronunciation is the universal language.  With some exceptions for the vulgar Italianate pronunciation and that hideous British fashion of butchering the language of Latin.

Instead of English, French should be the second backup language. 
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #103 on: August 13, 2021, 12:37:48 AM »
I'd be more in favour of something like Lojban being the universal language. There are at least two advantages I can think of with Lojban: 1. It is (supposedly) culturally neutral, which means nobody would have any particular advantage or disadvantage in learning the language; and 2. It is made to be machine parsable, which I imaging would make automatic translations much easier, and would also help make interacting with AIs more effective.

Offline j_tour

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #104 on: August 13, 2021, 01:56:48 AM »
"Machine parsable"?

Yeah, that's good, but why not just use Church's Lambda calculus?

Classical Latin is culturally relevant to all who are interested in Western culture, it is fairly regular, and admits compound words and neologisms or words borrowed from Greek very readily.

Go ahead, tell me how Esperanto is good next! 

 8)
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #105 on: August 13, 2021, 02:28:08 AM »
Classical Latin is culturally relevant to all who are interested in Western culture…

Well, if you insist on an ancient language then my vote goes to Classical Sanskrit. Versatile, beautiful, and arguably more relevant to a greater number of people than Latin is (given that most of the worlds population is from the east, not the west).

Offline j_tour

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #106 on: August 13, 2021, 02:39:41 AM »
Well, if you insist on an ancient language then my vote goes to Classical Sanskrit. Versatile, beautiful, and arguably more relevant to a greater number of people than Latin is (given that most of the worlds population is from the east, not the west).

Point taken.  I don't know any Sanskrit, except from occasional references in Indo-European languages.

What about for a challenge, one of the Finno-Ugric languages?  Nothing to do with Indo-European protolanguage, except for many, many, borrowed words, and both in equal measures precise and infuriariting as used in the colloquial.

Something like Amharic would work, although the orthography and culture is likely a bit strange to Westerners.

No.  I stick with Latin.  History, morphology is locked down, with only a relatively few odd constructions.  Mirabile dictu. 

But at least we agree that French should be the "backup" universal language, which is obviously true.

The thread can be closed now, for I have spoken.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #107 on: August 13, 2021, 02:47:54 AM »
Okay well, I'm up for the challenge. It would be nice to catch up with Caecilius and family.

Offline j_tour

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #108 on: August 13, 2021, 02:52:20 AM »
Mitä vittua!
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #109 on: August 13, 2021, 03:03:42 AM »

Offline imnotapianist

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #110 on: August 13, 2021, 06:03:00 AM »
1. butterflies are scary
2. If you can play a piece slowly, you can play it quickly
2.5 . Johann Strauss doesn't exist
2.75 . authentic sound guy is basically a reincarnation tekashi sixnine in classical form
2.875 . Brendan Kavanagh is a reptilian
3. Russell Westbrook will be traded for Chris paul mid-season to complete banana-boat
4. Matthew Stafford will win MVP under Mcvay, who will bring the rams to their first championship

Offline nightwindsonata

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #111 on: August 13, 2021, 08:45:30 PM »
1. butterflies are scary
2. If you can play a piece slowly, you can play it quickly
2.5 . Johann Strauss doesn't exist
2.75 . authentic sound guy is basically a reincarnation tekashi sixnine in classical form
2.875 . Brendan Kavanagh is a reptilian
3. Russell Westbrook will be traded for Chris paul mid-season to complete banana-boat
4. Matthew Stafford will win MVP under Mcvay, who will bring the rams to their first championship

my you are a sacrilegious one
Program:
Rachmaninoff Cello Sonata
Bach Prelude and Fugue in A flat
Beethoven The Hunt Sonata
Brahms Op. 119
Florence Price Clouds

Offline lelle

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #112 on: August 14, 2021, 01:45:19 AM »
2. If you can play a piece slowly, you can play it quickly

Not true and that's easy to verify. Any random person who has played for fun for a few years could play something like Chopin Op 10 no 2 if they play slowly enough, but they certainly couldn't play it at Chopin's indicated tempo of 144 bpm.

Offline j_tour

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #113 on: August 14, 2021, 03:30:35 PM »
Moths are nasty creatures, but they are satisfying to kill.

Butterflies are just fine.

That is all.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline ranjit

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #114 on: August 14, 2021, 05:48:42 PM »
Not true and that's easy to verify. Any random person who has played for fun for a few years could play something like Chopin Op 10 no 2 if they play slowly enough, but they certainly couldn't play it at Chopin's indicated tempo of 144 bpm.
Well you're posting a popular opinion, aren't you? ;)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #115 on: September 19, 2021, 02:18:44 AM »
Intrinsic technique destroys parroted technique yet so many people attempt to parrot without naturally coming to conclusions.
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Offline lelle

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #116 on: September 20, 2021, 08:10:53 PM »
Intrinsic technique destroys parroted technique yet so many people attempt to parrot without naturally coming to conclusions.

What do you mean with intrinsic technique? I kind of read that as the technique you were born with/instinctively picked up on your own, but since that technique often is far from optimal for most people I have a feeling that's not what you mean. :P

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #117 on: September 21, 2021, 12:17:21 AM »
Yes, the technique you are naturally able to produce. From doing something not completely correct you can move towards doing it more correct and from years of doing that you move towards mastery. It is better to do it in a natural progression rather than merely copy pasting ideas of mastery, or mimicing ideas without coming to those conclusions utterly yourself. A huge amount of people don't do this, they interlectualize technique rather than come across it with much experimentation. Of course I cannot describe exactly the process of intrinsic piano technique development unless we have a given individual to study but I don't think its necessary to make the point at least.

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Offline brogers70

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #118 on: September 21, 2021, 12:39:19 AM »
Yes, the technique you are naturally able to produce. From doing something not completely correct you can move towards doing it more correct and from years of doing that you move towards mastery. It is better to do it in a natural progression rather than merely copy pasting ideas of mastery, or mimicing ideas without coming to those conclusions utterly yourself. A huge amount of people don't do this, they interlectualize technique rather than come across it with much experimentation. Of course I cannot describe exactly the process of intrinsic piano technique development unless we have a given individual to study but I don't think its necessary to make the point at least.

I agree. And the hard thing is what to do when someone shows you a technique that feels uncomfortable and unnatural. It might be that you need to work with it a while for it to feel right, and that it's key to unlocking some problem you've been having. Or it might simply not be compatible with the natural technique that you can develop. As a student you need to gradually get a feeling for what is uncomfortable because it's new and maybe in conflict with a bad habit and what is uncomfortable because it's really not going to work for you. Obviously if you could get a great technique without doing new things that, at least temporarily, feel unnatural you wouldn't need a teacher and you'd be very unusual, but also you have to develop some trust in your own ability to figure out what is uncomfortable in a good and productive way and what's just plain uncomfortable and not suited to you. With more experience it gets easier to sort that out, but it's not automatic.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #119 on: September 21, 2021, 01:42:36 AM »
I agree. And the hard thing is what to do when someone shows you a technique that feels uncomfortable and unnatural. It might be that you need to work with it a while for it to feel right, and that it's key to unlocking some problem you've been having.
As a piano teacher I come across people with a large spectrum of technical capability. We have to prioritize what is the most important corrections to encourage rather than ask them to make a complete change to mimic mastery. I allow my students to play with poor technique but aim to improve the most problematic issues. Often you find once these most problematic issues are corrected the student has more room to then experiment as to what the best solution for them becomes because they feel something different to what they were doing before and it feels better.

Or it might simply not be compatible with the natural technique that you can develop. As a student you need to gradually get a feeling for what is uncomfortable because it's new and maybe in conflict with a bad habit and what is uncomfortable because it's really not going to work for you.
Everyone needs to play the piano inefficiently so that when they determine a better way it is naturally obvious to them. I have seen piano teacher take beginners hands and force them into correct postures from the get go. It reminds me of my first piano teacher who would force me to do graceful floaty type movements with my hand just for visual aesthetics but to me it was just ridiculous and even till today I don't do such things.

So we can't force our students hands into how we think it should look like, they need to understand their own two hands and walk the technical tightrope of varying width (the thinnest ropes being high level mastery) and whist doing so improving their aproach over time as they naturally understand better ways when aligned in the correct direction and that thus narrows the technical rope. This is difficult to do on your own but certainly possible if you have an experimental type mind.

Autodidactics will have many different tools they use to come to conclusions, being one myself since I am predominantly a self taught pianist who rarely followed my teachers instructions directly, I noticed the best teachers for me didn't force me into "a way" but merely aligned my thoughts and opened my vision to a certain direction which allowed me to further explore ideas I didn't know I didn't know. It seems to me that all my higher level students think in this manner strongly and I encourage the developing ones to strive to think in this way and they do so with many degrees of success.

I really enjoy a student coming to a lesson wanting to show me a solution they determined themselves, even if it is not the best solution its great to see them try to puzzle it out themselves and they should be fully encouraged and commended, it makes any correctives in lessons much more interesting since it can be compared with their own ideas and they can come to conclusions as to why one is better than the other, there may be a battle and debate as it which is better, all very instructive making learning the piano very dynamic, at least for me and those with investigative minds.

Obviously if you could get a great technique without doing new things that, at least temporarily, feel unnatural you wouldn't need a teacher and you'd be very unusual, but also you have to develop some trust in your own ability to figure out what is uncomfortable in a good and productive way and what's just plain uncomfortable and not suited to you. With more experience it gets easier to sort that out, but it's not automatic.
I started learning piano at 3 and the way I played the piano changed a great deal over each year. Even till today every year I play somewhat differently to the previous year, the changes are less large as I'm getting older but still there are changes which are easily noticeable still. I think all fledgling pianists need to appreciate how they are playing will change over time so it is no good to try to mimic mastery because you need to develop with your technique in a natural instrinsic manner over many years.

Yes there are traps and pitfalls, not many people can go through piano technique totally insulated within their own world, you need outside influences to attach you to ideas you don't know about. It is difficult to judge what ideas you don't know about are worthy or how to prioritize investigating new ideas, because of this good ideas might be missed for many years. Ultimately it doens't matter if you miss anything so long you are progressing in some manner and not floundering on the same ideas for extended periods. Everyone has holes in their journey, there is always a time to patch those up.
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Offline lelle

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #120 on: September 21, 2021, 10:13:57 PM »
Yes, the technique you are naturally able to produce. From doing something not completely correct you can move towards doing it more correct and from years of doing that you move towards mastery. It is better to do it in a natural progression rather than merely copy pasting ideas of mastery, or mimicing ideas without coming to those conclusions utterly yourself. A huge amount of people don't do this, they interlectualize technique rather than come across it with much experimentation. Of course I cannot describe exactly the process of intrinsic piano technique development unless we have a given individual to study but I don't think its necessary to make the point at least.

Ah that makes sense. But I guess the "Intrinsic technique destroys parroted technique" statement comes with some conditions. My intrinsic technique now is much worse than Evgeny Kissin's intrinsic technique, for example. But I think there may be some value to arriving at your personal technique through persistence and experimentation. The problem is just that this road can be so much longer than if you are properly taught and are given a shorter road by a teacher. And it can be dangerous, if you are careless.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #121 on: September 22, 2021, 02:23:33 AM »
But I guess the "Intrinsic technique destroys parroted technique" statement comes with some conditions. My intrinsic technique now is much worse than Evgeny Kissin's intrinsic technique, for example.
I don't think comparing ones ability to someone else really reveals anything at all. The intrinsic technique someone experiences vs parroted is their own experience but all will realize within their own bounds that natural technique is much more flexible and applicable compared to some parroted ideology.

But I think there may be some value to arriving at your personal technique through persistence and experimentation. The problem is just that this road can be so much longer than if you are properly taught and are given a shorter road by a teacher. And it can be dangerous, if you are careless.
Parroting technique is dangerous and disabling since you may not understand its application to future context and always require a teacher to moderate what you are doing. Experimentation is something everyone needs to do throughout their musical journey. A good teacher may align a student in the correct direction and help them avoid paths that are no good but not force them completely into an ideology of mastery without them intrinsically undestanding it. One must come from doing something not totally correct to fully understand an improvement, we don't just jump to mastery and ignore all else, that may actually stunt ones progress a great deal. We don't teach incorrect technique but we form incorrect technique into something more appropriate. Moulding technique over time creates an intrinsic understanding of the solution which is highly flexible and can be used in future situations with freedom of thought. Parroting and following directions doesn't allow you to be as flexible and encourages the ideology that future newly aquired technique needs to be learned through mimcry rather than discovery over time. I don't think it takes longer to acquire strong technique through a moulding type progress over time since you have a stronger technique overall compared to ones that merely parrot.
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Offline lelle

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
«Reply #122 on: September 22, 2021, 10:22:44 PM »
Parroting technique is dangerous and disabling since you may not understand its application to future context and always require a teacher to moderate what you are doing. Experimentation is something everyone needs to do throughout their musical journey. A good teacher may align a student in the correct direction and help them avoid paths that are no good but not force them completely into an ideology of mastery without them intrinsically undestanding it. One must come from doing something not totally correct to fully understand an improvement, we don't just jump to mastery and ignore all else, that may actually stunt ones progress a great deal. We don't teach incorrect technique but we form incorrect technique into something more appropriate. Moulding technique over time creates an intrinsic understanding of the solution which is highly flexible and can be used in future situations with freedom of thought. Parroting and following directions doesn't allow you to be as flexible and encourages the ideology that future newly aquired technique needs to be learned through mimcry rather than discovery over time. I don't think it takes longer to acquire strong technique through a moulding type progress over time since you have a stronger technique overall compared to ones that merely parrot.

That makes sense. My technique is far from fabulous but I feel like I agree with this based on my experience. I shall return in 20 years when I have played some more and perhaps taught some and report back if I still agree :P