Identify this composition sketched by Wittgenstein?

[everran]

This comes from Ludwig Wittgenstein's Culture and Value, a posthumously edited collection of fragments and notes. On page 21e, Wittgenstein includes a passage of written music that he refers to as, "the end of a theme which I cannot place." Can anyone here place it?

[j_tour]

This has bothered me before, being a reader of LW as well, like many people, I would think.

I checked the Gérard Granel translation under the imprint Trans-Euro-Repress, and the English one to which I guess you're referring.  Those are the only physical copies I have.

A few paragraphs or §s later, LW refers to Bruckner, so I always assumed that was it, or it was he (I recall very little of Bruckner's major works).  And yet, just before....I think LW is talking about Mendelssohn and Brahms.  The extract and voicings sound pretty much like something Brahms might have done.  And, you know, as a child, LW heard Brahms playing at his family's house, probably on numerous occasions.

I'm inclined to say "It's Wittgenstein, Jake," but I'd like to know the source as well.

If there is any.

[everran]

I have a pretty good ear but unfortunately little to no reading ability. I tried typing the Wittgenstein into NoteFlight but couldn't figure out the software; in other words, I'd really like to hear this bit of music if possible.

[fftransform]

Maybe he shoulda asked Paul.


Wittgenstein is the most successful fraud in the history of philosophy.  I remember being like 18 or 19 and blown away by the inaccessibility of the Tractatus; I wanted to read 'the hardest stuff' so this was very impressive to me.  But actually studying his scattered mess of ideas in college really disillusioned me of his purported genius.  He didn't resolve a single problem.  It's just a bunch of facile observations echoed a thousand times before and a thousand times since by kids around the bong cloud, but clad in this shiny shell-game armor of feigned hyper-rigor.

Nowadays he is hardly considered serious among philosophers, even in phil lang.  The quality of his work has won out and he's now considered something perilously close to pop-philosophy, dipping into Foucault territory.

[themeandvariation]

Witticisms aside, this doesn't - as the author mentions - look like 'the end of a theme'.  It looks like an introduction - and then becomes a boring ostinato - (a repeating 'cell').    The intro, though musical, is pretty much unremarkable, and could have been composed anytime from the baroque through the romantic period. I don't recognize it.  It could be a piano piece, but I sense it more relates to a work for orchestra.
You had mention that you read a little bit... you could just plunk out the melody (without the harmonizing notes) and still get quite a good sense of how it goes. The time signature suggests that it is somewhat slow moving.  Good luck.
Cheers!

[j_tour]

All right, how's this for a compromise? 

It's a ridiculously simple phrase voiced in two minimally different ways. 

I conclude it's a nonce phrase and a nonce voicing:  the point is, likely, that it's trivial.

There is no question that any important, mainstream thinker, has not comprehended and dealt with the LW of the Tractatus,  Reject it or not, it's not optional reading for technicians in cogntive psychology, linguistics, or computer science.

It is inconceivable that any scientist whose research uses logic beyond the most basic is not, however indirectly, aware of LW's work.

Kripke.  Barcan Marcus.  Quine. 

There's not one single person who uses logic, professionally, as a user or a tool, who doesn't use current technology developed by acolytes of LW's work.

Therefore, the poster, whose name alludes to an important algorithm (FFT) is a deliberate troll whose ignorance outweighs his ludicrous nomenclature.

[fftransform]

There is no question that any important, mainstream thinker, has not comprehended and dealt with the LW of the Tractatus,

No thinker has not comprehended?  Or no question has comprehended the Tractatus?  Neither of these sentences make sense.  I don't think that you have the language skills to even read such a work, much less an understanding of the philosophical context that it sits in.  Sentences tend to end in periods, btw.  What is the "LW of the Tractatus"?  The Ludwig Wittgenstein of the Tractatus?

Reject it or not, it's not optional reading for technicians in cogntive psychology, linguistics, or computer science.

Ok, I'll head over to the Google campus and ask around for opinions on the Tractatus.  "Huh"?  "Wut"?

It is inconceivable that any scientist whose research uses logic beyond the most basic is not, however indirectly, aware of LW's work.

I'm a mathematician.  Can you hop on the arXiv and point me to some recent math papers where you see Wittgenstein's inescapable shadow?

Kripke.  Barcan Marcus.  Quine.

Three names.  Cool.

If I recall, when I was 15 my sig on here was the famous Kripke quote about good theories and wrong theories.  Just a more sophisticated version of name-dropping, I suppose.

Therefore, the poster, whose name alludes to an important algorithm (FFT) is a deliberate troll whose ignorance outweighs his ludicrous nomenclature.

You really do struggle with commas, don't you?  Me rightly pointing out that hardly anybody in philosophy takes Wittgenstein seriously any more - an entirely accurate statement - compared to you stroking your ego all over a thread asking a question you don't know the answer to, is not trolling.  You're the troll.

[everran]

Thanks for hijacking the thread, bud. 

[j_tour]

There is no question but that any answer to the OP's question has found itself to have become buried in a self-unaware parody of nerdery.

But, as actual humans speak, did you find out the answer ever or not?

[everran]

Nothing yet, though I found this curious page, https://angelagrauerholz.com/special-projects/2010/appassionata/, along with a Reddit discussion that offers a few (bad) realizations of the music: https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/2yv38n/any_philosopherspiano_players_want_to_play_this/.

I'm going to email Ray Monk now and maybe another scholar, because why not? Stay tuned.


EDIT: Mr. Monk says he doesn't know and best wishes.

[j_tour]

I'm going to email Ray Monk now and maybe another scholar, because why not? Stay tuned.


EDIT: Mr. Monk says he doesn't know and best wishes.

I was just thinking of this for some reason, and I had the thought that Charles Bernstein, the poet, might very well be the person to ask.

I don't have his contact information, but I'm about 100% sure he is attached to a university somewhere in the US now.  He seems to move around a bit geographically, but he's technologically savvy and tends to know stuff like this.  Or at least he would know someone who does.

And he's a chatty, friendly guy who I'm sure would respond.

You could try Newton Garver, but I'm not sure he would know, and I'd be shocked if he does e-mail much if at all.  He's kind of old-school, in addition to being just plain old these days.    He is a nice guy, though, and certainly an authority on LW.

That's pretty cool Ray Monk got back to you. 

I still suspect it's just something LW just made up for fun:  kind of a generic little fragment, but he could well have heard it somewhere.

[everran]

I was just thinking of this for some reason, and I had the thought that Charles Bernstein, the poet, might very well be the person to ask.

I don't have his contact information, but I'm about 100% sure he is attached to a university somewhere in the US now.  He seems to move around a bit geographically, but he's technologically savvy and tends to know stuff like this.  Or at least he would know someone who does.

And he's a chatty, friendly guy who I'm sure would respond.

You could try Newton Garver, but I'm not sure he would know, and I'd be shocked if he does e-mail much if at all.  He's kind of old-school, in addition to being just plain old these days.    He is a nice guy, though, and certainly an authority on LW.

That's pretty cool Ray Monk got back to you. 

I still suspect it's just something LW just made up for fun:  kind of a generic little fragment, but he could well have heard it somewhere.

Great suggestions! It looks like Garver passed away some years ago, but I've found an address for Bernstein. I'll keep you posted. 

EDIT: Charles Bernstein writes: "I am interested in the question but have no idea!" I think I'll just email random Wittgenstein scholars now until we get ourselves an answer.

[j_tour]

Great suggestions! It looks like Garver passed away some years ago, but I've found an address for Bernstein. I'll keep you posted. 

EDIT: Charles Bernstein writes: "I am interested in the question but have no idea!" I think I'll just email random Wittgenstein scholars now until we get ourselves an answer.

Well, you are nothing if not tenacious!  Very impressive.

Yeah, Charles Bernstein was just a shot in the dark:  I know he's done a good bit of work on the relationship between poetry and music, in addition to his undergraduate work on LW.  Another poet, Clark Coolidge, has done quite a bit on the interstices of music and language, but I don't think he knows very much about LW; also not sure if he's a big e-mail guy.

Possible Marjorie Perloff.  I'm pretty sure she's still around and likely has an e-mail that can be found easily.  She's translated some LW into English, and wrote a kind of famous book called Wittgenstein's Ladder.  Never met her personally, so I couldn't say much about what she might know or not.

There may be no possible answer!  Surprising, given the amount of ink spilled on LW's writings, but maybe not so much since this isn't one of his technical works.

Good luck! 

ETA Does OP still need a recording of these bars of music?  It's kind of a pain to upload stuff via my mobile internet, but if it's needed, I could probably get around it to it sometime.  I think you'd get faster results by just typing it in to a MIDI score, but I'll play it if needed.  It's really not something that important IMHO.

[everran]

ETA Does OP still need a recording of these bars of music?  It's kind of a pain to upload stuff via my mobile internet, but if it's needed, I could probably get around it to it sometime.  I think you'd get faster results by just typing it in to a MIDI score, but I'll play it if needed.  It's really not something that important IMHO.

That would be appreciated! I tried plugging the theme from CV into some website but I'm not sure I ever quite got it right, especially with regard to tempo. But no rush, of course.

[everran]

Does OP still need a recording of these bars of music?  It's kind of a pain to upload stuff via my mobile internet, but if it's needed, I could probably get around it to it sometime.  I think you'd get faster results by just typing it in to a MIDI score, but I'll play it if needed.  It's really not something that important IMHO.

I remembered this thread today. Are you still able to make a quick and dirty recording of the Wittgenstein score? I'm not sure whether I ever emailed Perloff. I'll do that tomorrow.

[everran]

Perloff makes the same observation about the Mendelssohn and Brahms on the previous page and says she's sorry not to be more helpful.