what do you think....Piano Competitions without age limits?

[SDL]

Id love to see more musicians think beyond the child prodigy or the privalleged few who have the money to start early and get the good  training early. 

I started at 15 on the piano having played electric organ since 9 (ehm!  ) which is no where near the technique/musicianship you learn with the piano.   Ive done a music degree and music masters degree in (piano) performance, and had piano concerto and chamber music experience.  I had a break of about 7 years from age 26 - 33  from performing to re-train in I.T (to earn some money!!  ) Not everyone can live the luxury of practicing all day!  I am now 33 with fianancial security, a fresh outlook, musical maturity, and more repetoire but all the competitions are out of my age group.  I know of only one in England with no age limit.

Does anyone agree to having no age limits or even competitions with minimum ages? 
Does anyone know of any other competitions (piano or mixed) around the world where there isn't a maximum age limit?

[canardroti]

if it were just for my sake i would aggree , however another problem would rise up from the fact that a 40 year old with 35 years of piano and carreer plays for instance the polonaise in Ab major by Chopin Versus a little kid of 6 years old playing Fur Elise.
The only way I can think of would be a competition with the number of years of piano study..however this sounds rather utopic since we can't track everybody's music background.

[dinosaurtales]

SDL is the PERFECT example of a pet peeve of mine.  The age-30 limit on most competitions stifles the entire piano community - piano teachers are instead focused on who can get good at a young age, rather than someone's love of music and potential in life.  So we hear , yet again, another flashy bunch of notes coming from a "hot" 20 year old instead of wonderful music.  SDL is now considered "out" of the running, so to speak (I am a more extreme version, where I took 20 years or so off - but it still irks me that if you are not YOUNG - give it up!)

I think anybody that can play the required repertoire for an adult competition should be able to give it a try, whether he's 25, 35, or 50! 

[SDL]

another problem would rise up from the fact that a 40 year old with 35 years of piano and carreer plays for instance the polonaise in Ab major by Chopin Versus a little kid of 6 years old playing Fur Elise.

This isnt a realistic or salient example.  In the Leeds Internation Piano competion for example you still get young against old (age 14 up to age 30), and lets face it you are not going to get through the audition at 6 unless you can compete at a higher level than Fur Elise!  In addition, the Rubinstein has a minimum age limit of 18 and maximum of 32.

I would suggest a competition anyway, with a minimum age of say 30 (where the others leave off) upwards, and that a rule would be (as I've seen in some amateur festivals) you cannot already be professional (i.e Boris Berezovsky etc.., or already earn a certain of money from performing - people will soon tell the organisers if they know someone is professional already).  Its a start!

My gripe (in agreement with DinasourTales) is that mature people have a mature musical mind and ALSO have alot to offer artistically.  Audiences much prefer a moving experience (in some way) than a boring flash one.  I know people who are not by any means music experts, who know when they like something but dont necessarily know why. 

I think the elite-ism of the serious music platform needs smashing.  As we have seen in Pop Idol, the age of the "underdog"  here and refreshing.  Lets get more education around to the music societies etc.  Who today apart from the rich few, can afford not to have a job and have to take time out to even fund their art (lessons, competition fees etc..)

Over to your thoughts......

[anda]

also, age-limit or no age-limit: all competitions are won by young prodigies! i mean, the jury will always prefer an early 20s promising talent to a 30 years-old true developed pianist! (and that's a fact, i've been watching for a long time)

[SDL]

Even if you are right (and you have no concrete evidence to support this) does that mean we shouldn't be given the choice to enter; and what message do you think this is putting out there - like DinasourTales said its as if you are finished after 30!!
 
After all its performance experience and publicity - winning doesnt guarantee success as we have seen from many winners disapearing from the concert platform.

What are you afraid of by accepting the way it is at the moment?  The more people that educate the listeners about this the better.   :DAs I said there is one international competition in England that dosn't have an age limit and the winner is scheduled recitals including a concerto, over the coming year (with small payments) rather than thousands in case.  Second place gets a concerto performance, third small cash etc., prizes for best accompanist, best english work, best contemporary work.  Id like to see more competitions like this! And I will be entering this one - Im 33 not over the hill!

[lenny]

a maganize i subscribe to has teamed up with yamaha to do an amateur piano competition

its for ages 30 and up

https://www.pianistmagazine.com/framesetPianist.htm

'Judges to include Kathryn Stott and Martin Roscoe (Classical),
Jamie Cullum and Laurie Holloway (Modern).'

and they have the famous jamie cullum as a judge, looks good!

[SDL]

Thanks lenny for that!

I have had a good response also from Boston and Washington (americans are leading the amateur compos) by email who also have mimimum age limits.  I also found a website where there are more competitions with minimum age limits of 35!
www.afn.org/.  And ... apparently Sviatoslav Richter competition Ive heard too with minumum age limit of 23!

All the best 

[lenny]

the richter competition age obviously refers to the fact that richter was a late bloomer himself, i believe his 1st recital was age 19.

the latest issue of the magazine i referred to had an article about the increasing occurence of amateur competitions.
it discusses among other things - why pianists who have no hope of being professionals still are motivated to participate in this kind of contest.

[SDL]

didnt he start the piano at 15 (if so I feel I have an ali) or have I got that all wrong?

[lenny]

no he actually started young, but was never what you might call a 'prodigy'

he studied with neuhaus in his 20s

[chromatickler]

My gripe (in agreement with DinasourTales) is that mature people have a mature musical mind and ALSO have alot to offer artistically.  Audiences much prefer a moving experience (in some way) than a boring flash one.  I know people who are not by any means music experts, who know when they like something but dont necessarily know why.

Wishful thinking possibly. The last Amatuer competition i heard on webcast (The Paris one), guess who won? a guy  who gave an extremely vulgur rendition of la campanella with close to perfect technical accuracy in under 4'00, of course. He got the audience award too, of course. 

[lenny]

who said vulgarity cant be moving? 

[pianowelsh]

There should be more serious competitions for people older than 30. I know so many talented pianists who are sitting at home depressed and unemployed because unless you make it by 30 that's pretty much it in classical performance (of course there are exceptions) but to put talent on the back shelf at 30 I believe is absolutely criminal!!!!!

[a-sharp]

Pianowelsh - I agree.

it discusses among other things - why pianists who have no hope of being professionals still are motivated to participate in this kind of contest.

I didn't read this article, and I supposed the majority of contestants might have "no hope" of being a professional, but why not - is there really a written rule that someone can't have some kind of performance career if they started late [or, say, started young, then stopped, and started again later in life??]? I mean, what about the girl who won who was 35? Surely she should have a chance at performing [if she wanted to] after having won, right? what about the finalists [at least one could put on their resume/bio they were a finalist in XYZ competition - who cares about their age... ]. Right?

I guess I'm saying Yay for fine musicians regardless of age... *shrug*

[pianowelsh]

There is NO written rule this is true. But 90 % of competitions catering for the over 30's are amateur.  Record companies wont take you on unless you have competition experience and concerthalls wont book you unless your bankable..You could put your hope in your teacher to find you concerts BUT the only problem with that is that yor teacher is too busy being concerned with opportunities for his up and coming prodigies who are still in nursery!  It is an extremely discriminating profession..not just age! Gender, race..even appearance...it is the ugly side of the profession im afraid. Im happy to be one step removed as a teacher I dont have to force myself to be infront of juries anymore but it is extremely corrupt and prejudice really and many top teachers and musicians now will not touch competitions because they feel so strongly about this

I say let the old and the ugly go for it...id love to see more pianists from underprovelidged homes and thord woprld countries (who actually live in them - not bought out to study in western conservatories), Id like to see more women win competitions not just get admitted as a token gesture to the final stages.. But really its the recording companies and our top college professors who sit on the juries that preserve this artifical bublle of a world known as the piano circus.. We should lobby for a change!

[pianistimo]

perhaps all of us over 30 should just start a musicians 'reality show' and prove our talents that way.  you know - meet on an island - have such and such hours to prepare a certain number of pieces that were hertofore unseen by all of us - and then also play repertoire we have prepared.

i think it would be great fun.

i can imagine the spats and fights, too, when someone is judged unfairly and sits outside the circle unwilling to connect again until apologies are made from every single person who said 'whatever.'

or the precocious - youngest of the oldest (say 33) that struts around telling everyone that they are going to get beaten. 

what i want to see is a 99 year old sit on one hand and play ravel's lh concerto. 

[pianowelsh]

Ever read william Goldings Lord of the flies??? I fear this would be the situation we would be faced with.  Still perhaps a pianists big brother is the way to go??!?!
I actually think documentaries that go behind the scenes at things like the van clibern and gina baucherer etc do the industry a lot of good...people see what is really involved in being a pianist.

[ada]

I guess the question is, why would someone over 30 want to participate in competitions?

Competitions are generally a way of establishing yourself as a career pianist are they not? and by the time you're 30 you should either be there or not.

So they serve a practical purpose. If you are playing for enjoyment, why bother with competing? Apart from the ego thing of winning I don't see the point.

And if you really want to make a serious career out of piano then you may have to accept that 30 may be a liitle late to start, that's just life. You wouldn't think about starting a career as a ballerina at 30 would you?

At that age (if for whatever reason, lack of talent or time or opportunity) you aren't a professional pianist then you should simply be playing because you love it, and then it doesn't matter whether or not you compete.

[pianistimo]

it's hard to let go of dreams.   i think everyone dreams of the 'on stage' part - but noone dreams of 'the anonymous pianist'  who plays for everybody and their rich uncle but never gets a dime (or rarely what they are worth) and never won a prize.  i think we should, right here and now, establish a sort of loose poker setting (everyone tossing out spare change and dollars) and then just have a sort of flybynight competition to get it out of whomever's system still has it.

i lost my desire to be in competitions about a year ago.  i said, 'what the heck, i'm never going to win.  may as well be happy with the fact that my fingers are still very flexible and mobile and that i haven't done in my wrists with jar lids.'

but, i hate to see people's dreams dashed.  i think if at all possible - we should help fulfill other people's dreams.   SDL - we will make a competition just for you.  and, we will be somewhat unwilling but on-the-spot competitors - but make sure that we mess up so that you win this once in a lifetime opportunity.  i mean - most pianists like the fact that they will end up with year long stint performing and some orchestra playing a piano concerto behind them.  we will form a small quartet to play behind you for the piano concerto part of the competition.  thal will play banjo, tash the flute, and somebody here knows a trombonist.  i think there are some other instruments, too.

ps do you know why children are so happy with relatively little of their dreams fulfilled yet.  because they keep imagining.  i say - imagine yourself encircled witht he philadelphia orchestra or the london - when you play with a duo piano - or even with music-minus-one.  someday - your chance will come.  you just have to be prepared.  you never know when you might meet a pianist or conductor or a person who knows a person high up in the business.  you just never know!

[ada]

All this stuff about dreams is cloud cuckoo land. By 30-40 you should be doing, not dreaming. Sure, you can aspire, but you have to temper that with some sort of sense of reality.

Kids don't dream about thier future because they have no concept of time or potential or possibility. They just live in the moment. They can do anything but the beauty is they don't know it. When they do, it's too late.

Life's what happens when you're making other plans, or words or that effect, according to our friend John Lennon.

But back to piano competitions for oldies, well they are also likely to be a fairly crap standard as they would consist of a slew of mediocre could-have-beens. And you may have a hard time getting sponsors to back this.

This is not to say that I am not over the robotic kiddie prodigy either. Id's no sooner see a precocious six year old than a past their prime amateur.

ooh how cruel I can be 

[a-sharp]

LOL - "oldies"

Sorry - I just can't help that.

well they are also likely to be a fairly crap standard as they would consist of a slew of mediocre could-have-beens.

I doubt it. I would be interested in hearing the winners [and there really are such competitions - albeit not many - for the really old 30+-somethings...].

[a-sharp]

sorry - forgot to add -

Kids don't dream about their future? ??

That is just spoken by someone who either a. doesn't have kids, or, b. forgot what it was like to be a kid.

Not to be cruel or anything ....