Key signatures doubt

[billybraga]

Hey, im a intermediate student, is there any tips for memorize all the 24 existing key signatures? Should i train this everyday?

[keypeg]

How are you approaching this right now?   Piano-wise, and theory-wise?

[billybraga]

I just try to memorize it (just relating the relative minor of the major key signatures) in  my mind, but something is still missing. I can't catch my eyes on a piece that I've never played before and instantly identify its key signatures. I can't do this like many students at my level do 

[ranjit]

I think that memorizing the circle of fifths is definitely the way to go about it. Initially, observe that one sharp is G major, and one flat is F major, for example. Work your way up, and constantly quiz yourself. Also, just play the scales on the piano, and just look at them. I don't know how better to say this, but eventually you just see the whole scale in your head at once, and will immediately think -- oh, five black keys, that's got to be Db major! Improvising over each scale while being conscious of the scale you're playing in is also a good idea to gain a deep level of familiarity with the scales.

[keypeg]

Patterns:

C major -- no sharps or flats
G major -- one sharp,  F#.  It's just under the G.

D major -- has the same sharp that G major had, plus C#. It's just under the D.  2 sharps

A major -- has the same sharps as D major had, plus G#. It's just under the A.  3 sharps

Are you seeing the pattern?

Meanwhile, by order of increasing number of sharps:
C, G, D, A, E, B (start with those)
They are all a fifth apart.  If you put your RH on the piano, your thumb is in C, pinky is on the next one in the circle (G).  If you put your RH thumb on G, your pinky is on the next one (D) etc.  So the piano can "teach" you your key signatures.

Flats:
F major - one flat, Bb
Bb major -- two flats, the Bb of above plus Eb
Eb major - three flats, the above two plus Ab
Ab major - as above, plus Db.  Are you guessing the next one will be Db major?

Order of sharps go:
F#, C#, G#, D#, A#,  E#, B#
Order of flats go:
Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb

Notice how if you read the sharps letters right to left, you get the flats letters and vice versa.

-------
Meanwhile for playing your key signatures you might want to go by fingering patterns.  Some of the major scales all have the same pattern of 123, 1234 for example. That is still another angle.

Then, signatures again, we have cadences that go V-I.   C7-F; F7-Bb; Bb7-Eb ... there's your pattern again.  That's a "circle of fourths" which I'm told is more useful than the "circle of fifths".  You jump up a 4th C F Bb Eb etc. .... B E A D G C ....

[klavieronin]

Here are my mnemonics for remembering the sharps and flats;

Sharps: Fredric Chopin Gets Drowsy After Eating Breakfast (F, C, G, D, A, E, B)
Flats: Beethoven Enters And Declares Great Concerto Finished (B, E, A, D, G, C, F)

For Major sharp keys the key is a semitone up from last sharp, so if there are 3 sharps (F, C, G) a semitone up from G# (the last sharp) is A, therefore the key is A Major.

For Major flat keys it's perfect forth down from the last flat, so if there are six flats (B, E, A, D, G, C) the key is G flat Major because Gb is a perfect fourth down from Cb.

Relative minors (same key signature) are always a minor third down from their relative major.

Hope that helps.

[j_tour]

I think that memorizing the circle of fifths is definitely the way to go about it. Initially, observe that one sharp is G major, and one flat is F major, for example. Work your way up, and constantly quiz yourself

Couldn't really agree more. 

I suppose the way I learned the keys at very first was being in the habit of writing out the key signatures on staff paper:  as one knows, there's a particular order to writing the accidentals.

For me it was less visual, not just looking at the infamous diagrams of the circle/cycle, but just a practical thing that has only way to do it (no, I'm not including modal key signatures, just major-minor harmonic system).

And, fo course, the more one reads, just like recognizing scales or chords at a glance, it's really just second nature.

So, just reading and writing, is how I would say it.

And then there are some composers, like Scriabin who frustrate me often with unorthodox notation that I'll occasionally just rewrite the scores, or just pencil in pop-jazz notation, say, "A+ over Csus#4" or something.  Scriabin's the worst for odd notations that have no necessary relationship to his compositions, IMHO.  At times.

So, no, it does not really get necessarily easier, but the basics just need practice.

And, like others have said, don't worry about the relative minors.  They're the same.

[timothy42b]

I think that memorizing the circle of fifths is definitely the way to go about it.

Yes.  Circle of fifths, and do one major scale a week intensely for 12 weeks.  You need to get them in your brain and fingers and that's harder if you're doing many at a time.  (depends on how advanced you are)

But then.  Start playing them with a metronome, randomly.  Shake a 12 sided die and play scales.  Without the sheet music.  You already know what scales sound like, you shouldn't need to look at the notes.  Doing them out of circle of fifths order is the way to solidify them. 

[keypeg]

I tried to go past "memorizing" the circle of fifths, which was the first way I did it, and the second way, via the piano, proved to be more effective.  I was taught the 2nd.  But so far we haven't heard back from the OP so we can't know if anything was worthwhile writing out, by any of us.

[ranjit]

I think it's a good idea to have a direct association of the number of sharps/flats to the key signature. That is, you should try to immediately think "3 flats = Eb major" rather than counting up the circle of fifths. I think the same holds true in general for things which you need to use all the time -- when learning to read sheet music, a lot of people use mnemonics such as "Every Good Boy Does Fine". I found it quicker in the long run to bypass this step entirely and try and directly memorize the notes as positions on the grand staff (visually). My advice would be to literally quiz yourself with flashcards if you have to -- there are only around a dozen different key signatures, and you'll probably get familiar enough with all of them eventually.

[j_tour]

But so far we haven't heard back from the OP so we can't know if anything was worthwhile writing out, by any of us.

Sure, it's worth writing out.

Just like learning key signatures.  By rote repetition.

If anything, the lack of response indicates the OP's inability to concentrate on trivial, mechanical exercises.  Or the OP could be dead.  In either case, my condolences.  The world has truly lost a powerful mind.

[volcanoadam]

The key is written in a key signature. The way I look at it is:
- C Major - always the start;
- in signatures with sharps the key is always one step up, eg.: # on F, next above is G Major, ## - last one on C therefore the key is D Major and when there's a # on the note then the key is also sharp - C#, F#
- in signatures with flats the key is always on second b to last of the signature, eg.: bb it is B - hence Bb Major, bbb - Eb Major and so on; the only one to remember here is F Major.
- all minor keys are a third below the major key and if the key note has a b or # in it it's in the key.

I haven't worked out how to figure out the relative keys because, so far I didn't need that, but surely there also must be a way to read that from the key signature.

[keypeg]

The key is written in a key signature.

mostly

The way I look at it is:
- C Major - always the start;
- in signatures with sharps the key is always one step up, eg.: # on F, next above is G Major, ## - last one on C therefore the key is D Major and when there's a # on the note then the key is also sharp - C#, F#
- in signatures with flats the key is always on second b to last of the signature, eg.: bb it is B - hence Bb Major, bbb - Eb Major and so on; the only one to remember here is F Major.
- all minor keys are a third below the major key and if the key note has a b or # in it it's in the key.

Yes, generally speaking.  However, be careful about writing things like "bb" because that actually means "double flat".  For example, Bbb is "B double flat" and essentially you are playing A (two half steps down from B).  What you are trying to say is essentially correct.

I haven't worked out how to figure out the relative keys because, so far I didn't need that, but surely there also must be a way to read that from the key signature.

The relative minor is an m3 below, or M6 above the relative major (same thing).  Thus, C major - relative minor is A minor (key of).  G major, the relative minor is E minor etc.

I mentioned "key of" because often people mix keys and scales together.  In the key of A minor, you will have the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A - same notes as in C major, except starting somewhere else. There is some history to that. If you play those notes, you will get the "natural minor scale".  But often we will have the "harmonic minor scale" where the 7th note is sharped: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A.  This gives you a stronger "leading note" leading into the A, and it also lets your V chord and V7 be major: (EG#B or EG#BD for E7) instead of the minor V chord you'd get otherwise (EGB or EGBD for Em7). 

Since this last is so prevalent, you'll see a lot of sharped 7 degree notes.  That is one way to tell if your key signature of no sharps or flats is C major or A minor.  To whit:
- Does the music end on C and a C chord, with lots of G to C or G7 to G (V7-I)? If so it's C major.  Does it end on A and the A chord, with lots of E to A or E7 to A (V7-i)?  Then it's A minor.
- Do you see lots of G#'s in the music, as accidentals?

A third common minor scale is the melodic minor.  The harmonic minor has a kind of "Oriental" feel in the melody because you have an augmented 2nd (minor third sound) in there.  So the 6th is also raised to smooth this out.  Ascending, it sounds like you started playing a minor scale and then changed your mind to a major. (how I hear it)

A B C D E F# G# A
That's melodic minor, with F & G (6th & 7th degree) raised.

We sometimes see people say that a piece of music is "in A harmonic minor" etc.  It can only be "in A minor" - which minor scales are used are then determined by the composer, with accidentals doing the rest.  The major key is much more stable and boring.

[timothy42b]

Knowing that there are 3 sharps in the key of A major or 5 in B might be intellectually satisfying or help you answer a theory quiz.

But I think you learn better by playing the scales, and especially by playing them by ear.  Then they have some practical reality.  I think if you learn to play the A major scale really well, when you see a piece with 3 sharps you will instantly think A, and not forget to play G# and annoy everybody around.  Or even if you don't realize it is A major, but play G#, you will have succeeded. 

But maybe i don't understand what your intent is in learning key signatures. 

[keypeg]

But maybe i don't understand what your intent is in learning key signatures.

I went 40 years without understanding how key signatures work, and was basically limited in what I could play from sheet music.   I could work out how to play scales in any key but that did not bridge the gap.  It is ridiculously simple, how they work.  That's been set out several ways here now. And it's a shame when a person is locked out because they haven't found the "key" (pun intended) to open that door.

[volcanoadam]

- all minor keys are a third below the major key and if the key note has a b or # in it it's in the key.

I haven't worked out how to figure out the relative keys because, so far I didn't need that, but surely there also must be a way to read that from the key signature.

Sorry, I used incorrect term, I should've said enharmonic keys as I obviously pointed the way to find relative minor keys.

[keypeg]

Sorry, I used incorrect term, I should've said enharmonic keys as I obviously pointed the way to find relative minor keys.

So you did, I missed that.

The enharmonics happen when you get past 4 sharps or flats.  We can find all these nifty diagrams like this one.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/JrCXQTRKFnDzowJPVVUMPj-970-80.jpg.webp

I'm actually not sure about the question though, in terms of finding. Maybe it's a mental block, because they look kind of scary on paper?  (they do, to me).  I'd say it's the same as all the others.  Using your method, if the last sharp is A#, you know it's B major, for example.  The flats work the same way as what you set out , here as well.

Or your question may be just knowing those equivalents (that Db major = C# major)?  In music you'll be dealing with one or the other, so you won't be seeing them at the same time.  But you can also see that Db = C#, because if you play D on the piano and go down one, you're on the same piano key as when you play C and go up one.

One thing that was pointed out to me for writing music, is that composers will tend to choose the signature with less sharps or flats, all things being equal. So they will prever Db major over C# major.  But if the music modulates, where it will be going can also affect the decision.

[volcanoadam]

Or your question may be just knowing those equivalents (that Db major = C# major)?  In music you'll be dealing with one or the other, so you won't be seeing them at the same time.  But you can also see that Db = C#, because if you play D on the piano and go down one, you're on the same piano key as when you play C and go up one.

That's exactly what I meant and knowing that Db = C# doesn't help with easy recognising of the key signature. I'm myself not so bothered about those so far, as they're more theoretical keys rather then practical, so I'll worry about those when I get to such advanced study 

One thing that was pointed out to me for writing music, is that composers will tend to choose the signature with less sharps or flats, all things being equal. So they will prever Db major over C# major.  But if the music modulates, where it will be going can also affect the decision.

True most of the time, at least on the piano. I read in some theory books that sometimes composers choose enharmonic equivalents because of different tuning temperaments. The difference, if any, I think only the best ears will be able to hear.

[timothy42b]

Playing some German band music one night, I was handed a piece with 8 flats in the key signature.  B was double flatted. 

No, I didn't recognize that signature at sight, though I later figured out why they did it.  I did play it correctly, but it took a good bit of concentration. 

So it might not be always be necessary to recognize the key to play the notes, but it's often helpful, and to me that's the point of learning it. 

[keypeg]

That's exactly what I meant and knowing that Db = C# doesn't help with easy recognising of the key signature. I'm myself not so bothered about those so far, as they're more theoretical keys rather then practical, so I'll worry about those when I get to such advanced study.

I think the only thing that does matter is being able to recognize when you have the key of Db major or the key of C# major.  That is the same as the other key signatures (4 sharps / flats or less) that you already know.  It works exactly the same way.  You can use those things you outlined in your first post in this thread.

Students are alerted to the fact that there are enharmonic equivalents so they know they exist.  Supposing you played a piece in B major, and later you get a piece in Cb major and you're thinking "Wait a minute, I'm pressing exactly the same keys - what's going on here?  What am I doing wrong?"  You have to know this exists.  I hope to have demystified this a bit.

These key signatures are not more "advanced".  It's just that a lot of systems start a certain way.

[Bob]

Use the memory tricks and logic at first so you can always think through it and figure it out.  But eventually flat out memorize it to the point that you don't want to think about it anymore.  You just know it.

I never really used the circle of fifths so much, except for knowing it was there and going through scales up or down a fifth.  It's interesting, the circle, but I just didn't do much with it.

Look for the patterns.  Like the Major scale and its relative minor.

And the tricks... For Major key signature, go up a half step from the last sharp, and that's the key.  For flats, it's the second to last flat sign.

Drill yourself on flash cards.

Learn the scales, all 30.

Learn major and seventh chords over those scales, again all 30.

Write out the scales.  Write out chords (triads and sevenths) in those keys, all inversions.

Find actual music in those keys so you can see the key signatures in printed music. 

It's is a fairly large amount of space to work in.  Whatever keys you see more you'll be more comfortable with.  Spreading out some will make it easier to ingrain just key signatures.

24?  Isn't 15 key signatures?  You end up with some obscure ones where they overlap.  15 major, 15 minor.   An empty signature, 7 sharps, 7 flats = 15.  x2 for Major and minor = 30.  Once in a while you do see those obscure ones in a piece of music. 

[j_tour]

Playing some German band music one night, I was handed a piece with 8 flats in the key signature.  B was double flatted. 

No, I didn't recognize that signature at sight, though I later figured out why they did it.  I did play it correctly, but it took a good bit of concentration. 

So it might not be always be necessary to recognize the key to play the notes, but it's often helpful, and to me that's the point of learning it.

My sympathies.  But it's pretty rare to find a piece in such a cock-eyed signature like that.  Yeah, it comes up in temporary modulations in longer pieces.

At about Gb major is where I get off the bus and say, "this is stupid."  Because the subdominant is, you guessed it, Cb, and it's likely going to appear.  Curiously, Ebm doesn't have that quirk, despite having the same key signature.

Db major is one of my favorite keys to improvise in, and, of course read in:  very common. 

Yes, I'm mildly enraged when somebody writes in the enharmonic C# major (ahem....Bach), but it's really just down to taste and habit.

Ultimately, I think there are two kinds of people, when it comes to notation:  those who favor flats and those who favor sharps.  I think in terms of quantity of accidentals in the key signature, it evens out, but it enrages me to see a bunch of sharps when it could be written in flats.

I've never figured it out, but to this day, if somebody calls a tune in "C#" I'm privately thinking to myself (Yeah, Db, MF, just count it off and go!).

Something about string vs. horn or reed instruments.  I swear to christ, if somebody calls a tune in F# instead of Gb, like a reasonable person, I'd get pretty upset.  Well, I'd play the tune, but I'd be angered.

[timothy42b]

Ultimately, I think there are two kinds of people, when it comes to notation:  those who favor flats and those who favor sharps.  I think in terms of quantity of accidentals in the key signature, it evens out, but it enrages me to see a bunch of sharps when it could be written in flats.

I started as a beginner playing wind instruments in bands.  Beginners always start in simple flat key signatures partly because of the fundamentals of brass instruments and for many of us flats will always be more comfortable.  Orchestral musicians often favor sharps I guess because of strings.  I've been told by tuba players that some of them end up preferring tubas pitched in C for orchestral work and Bb for band, because of easier fingering.   

Of course guitar players only know E and D so it's no problem for them.  Six chords and they're done.

(years back I was playing piano for a Catholic service along with the guitar player who also cantored.  I was playing off a lead sheet that happened to be in D.  As we were about to start the final verse of the last hymn, she leaned over the piano and whispered in my ear "we go to E for the last verse!" Instant stress, because with my lack of skill I always sweated getting through these, and I could see 30 more seconds before I could relax.  Moving chords is no sweat but I was playing a melody off sheet music.)

[j_tour]

Of course guitar players only know E and D so it's no problem for them.  Six chords and they're done.

Well done!

Yes, I know you're kidding around, but it's that old traditional thing among anyone who's played in bands and engaged in volume wars with guitarists of dubious ability and versatility.

Although, when I was learning the blues as a kid off the recordings on piano, you know, from the usual recordings, yeah, I'm glad I did become immediately familiar with the sharp keys.  Still am, really.

Even though I'll be damned if I'll ever call Db as C#!

Yes, probably like a number of people here I've played my share of guitar and even a very tiny bit of fiddle, so it's nothing personal, just one of those fake rivalries between electric guitars and keys in popular music. 

All in good fun.

(years back I was playing piano for a Catholic service along with the guitar player who also cantored.  I was playing off a lead sheet that happened to be in D.  As we were about to start the final verse of the last hymn, she leaned over the piano and whispered in my ear "we go to E for the last verse!" Instant stress, because with my lack of skill I always sweated getting through these, and I could see 30 more seconds before I could relax.  Moving chords is no sweat but I was playing a melody off sheet music.)

Oh, see?  The archdiocese here in my town has a very good piano and an interesting organ, as well as one primary person who occasional plays some interesting things.

That would really have upset me, that little trick your guitarist pulled on you.  It reminds me of sitting in on jam sessions as a younger man and people just trying to razz you a bit.

Yeah, I'm sure you can transpose on sight now, as can I, within reason, but that's a pretty low trick to play on somebody just getting started.  (Or, in your case, at least someone whom the guitar player trickster didn't know very well).

On the other hand, I suppose that's one way to learn:  just feet in the fire, and damned the torpedoes.

But not during a live performance.  Yeah, maybe if it's a jam session in front of a handful of hippies all effed up, or just rehearsing, that's OK, you know, just for fun or a bit of friendly competition, but one musn't intentionally make a bad performance, especially not for some little stunt like moving up a whole step.

If you're guitarist was Aretha Franklin, well, then maybe, but it comes back to professionalism in performance:  no matter what, it should sound good! 

Or OK, you know, just regular good! 

Some people, I just can't figure them out.

It's almost as though some musicians have fairly fine opinions of themselves. 

[lecheilemusic]

As a very quick tip (not a substitute for really getting to know all your scales thoroughly), with key signatures that have sharps, the very last sharp is a semitone/half tone below the tonic note if it’s a major scale, so for example, if there are 5 sharps in the key signature, the last one is A#, a semitone below B, so your key is either B major or its relative minor, G# minor. You can quickly check which it is by going to the end of the piece and seeing whether it ends on a B major chord or a G# minor chord.
With flats, the second last flat gives you the major key, so if you have 4 flats, the second last one is A flat, so you are either in A flat major or F minor.
Hope this helps!

[Bob]

Playing some German band music one night, I was handed a piece with 8 flats in the key signature.  B was double flatted. 

Fb Major / db minor?  Why was it written like that?  Something German?  Band?  Or someone just hitting transpose with software? 

[timothy42b]

Fb Major / db minor?  Why was it written like that?  Something German?  Band?  Or someone just hitting transpose with software?

Db minor.  It's not totally unknown, there's a Mendelsohn symphony with a section written that way, but that was the first time I ran into it.  And no software was involved, this was an old typeset piece of band music.

Like much of that style music, the thrifty Germans did everything they could to save ink, so it was a "road map" piece.  It didn't start at upper left and end at lower right!  No, there are always multiple repeated sections followed by DS and folge, such that only extreme alertness keeps you from getting lost.  I would challenge anyone who's only played American style band pieces to sightread one of these and finish with the rest of the band the first time. 

[themeandvariation]

It certainly begs the question as to how 8 accidentals AS a Key Signature (as mentioned)  are managed on the staff, as there are only seven spots -- unless - there are 2 different accidentals for the same note.  And if so, I guess it would be referring to different registers - which would be a defiantly 'modern compositional approach' - .  Does this apply to the composition mentioned?  If so, something is whacky somewhere..

[keypeg]

It certainly begs the question as to how 8 accidentals AS a Key Signature (as mentioned)  are managed on the staff, as there are only seven spots -- unless - there are 2 different accidentals for the same note.  And if so, I guess it would be referring to different registers - which would be a defiantly 'modern compositional approach' - .  Does this apply to the composition mentioned?  If so, something is whacky somewhere..

I found a picture.  It's how I imagined it.  No it would not refer to different registers, since flats or sharps in a signature applies to all registers.  Here's the pic:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Db_minor_key_signature.png/220px-Db_minor_key_signature.png

Article:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-flat_major

It mentions Beethoven using it.

[themeandvariation]

"No it would not refer to different registers, since flats or sharps in a signature applies to all registers."
No.  In 'modern' composition, flats and sharps can refer to different registers.  (I referenced this in the previous post, but you either lacked comprehension, or willing closed the door which offers a nuance to your platitudinous positions). But thanks for the general definition.

In the key signature in the pic you posted -  There Are 7 accidentals - Not  8!   That is my point.

[1piano4joe]

.

[keypeg]

Keypeg. Yes, But in the key signature in the pic you posted -  There Are 7 accidentals - Not  8!   That is my point.

What was being discussed was Fb major/ Db minor; a signature containing 8 flats.  Also, accidentals were not discussed - 8 flats were discussed.  A sharp or flat is an accidental when it occurs outside the key signature, in the music, and it lasts for only that measure.  The key signature I posted contains no accidentals whatsoever.  It contains 8 flats - with the b on the B line written in twice, thus functioning as bb.

[keypeg]

.

[themeandvariation]

Yes, I was using 'accidentals' loosely, because I was referring to Any key signature and didn't want to be bothered with writing,  'any key signature with sharps, flats, double-flats or double sharps'.  'Accidentals', I was using as a generalization for all affected keys. So perhaps, a poor choice of term here, but I thought folks would get my intent, and get the broader picture I was pointing to.

  Keypeg, you say, "a signature containing 8 flats."

No.  This IS a Key Signature with 7! flats - and one of them is double-flatted.  The double- flat in this context does Not count as 2 flats - in the key signature.  This is technical, and relates to Analysis.    If you are unaware - well, Ive tried to make it clear. This is Not a KEY SIGNATURE WITH 8 FLATS. For the piano student, I don't point to a note which is double-flatted and tell the student that there are 2 flats.  I tell them it is double-flatted.  A composition with the theoretical Fb key sig. is extremely rare, and eyebrows would be raised, as this insistence would be purely for the theoretician and Not the performer, as it a ridiculous contortion in order to leave breadcrumbs of the harmonic relations for the one analyzing the score, in favor of one who is Performing the score. This idea of 8,9,10, 11 .... flats as a key signature is the mathematics going overboard (as they are quite unnecessary duplications of other key signatures). Harmonically speaking, the duplicate (enharmonic) keys with 5,6, or 7 is within reason, and is solid, as there are 7 notes to the scale.  More than 7  goes beyond a practical approach for the performer, as in this context (but not a 'modern' compositional context) there are 7 notes to the scale, each with its own identifying label.

[keypeg]

It has one more flat than the key signature of Cb major, which has 7 flats.  If you want to call bb "double flat" a "single" flat, as an entity by itself, you can do so.  The point is that we have one more thing going on, and we are talking about Fb major. The rest is a quibble and does not help anyone.  You wrote of ACCIDENTALS.

[themeandvariation]

"It has one more flat than the key signature of Cb major, which has 7 flats.  If you want to call bb "double flat" a "single" flat, as an entity by itself, you can do so." 

Oh, I can do so. Thanks.  Ok, then, by your metric, the key of Bbb would have 9 flats, Ebb -10 flats, Abb -11 flats, Dbb -12 flats, Gbb - 13 flats, Cbb -14 flats, Fbb - 15 flats.
Here, with 15 flats, which are applied to 7 notes - isn't that starting to sound a bit cumbersome, as they say?  Compositionally, as a key signature, it is ridiculous. No sane person would write it in Fbb key signature.  It would simply be the key of Eb.

I would posit that even the key sig. of Fb is a very poor choice.  Even if the composer was modulating from Cb major, and wanted to leave breadcrumbs to show that they were navigating to a new key signature based in the IV chord (Fb), this theoretical underpinning becomes insignificant when compared to the cumbersomeness of the reading.  Obviously, the key signature should have been changed to E major.
   



"The point is that we have one more thing going on, and we are talking about Fb major."

Oh yes. Let's not forget Fb major, which is what the Cb7 chord modulates to.  Yes. Let me know when a piece that you are playing is in Fb. (might take decades or more). But anyway, since You are talking about the significance of Fb major, what have you noticed, and Why is it interesting to you?  Im all ears.

(edit) ...

[lostinidlewonder]

24 Key signatures? You mean 15 conventional ones and the relative minors? I see Bob already mentioned this, hooray someone is on the ball

Hi all,

I don't understand all the confusion. This seems TO ME so basic, so elementary but then again I have an anal retentive personality combined with obsessive compulsive disorder.

I shall begin with the OP who in his mind claims to be an INTERMEDIATE! Hogwash! By what standard exactly? Which metric/rubric? Take an exam learn 3 pieces, 2 etudes, some scales, etc. and that makes you intermediate? Not to me. Not to quite a few other posters, who in other threads concur.

Doesn't everyone know, "Every Good Boy Does Fine"? and "FACE". Then you know the circle of 5ths. Doesn't get any easier to explain (if necessary that is) than that. I shouldn't have to expound on this but then again maybe I do.

Shouldn't any intermediate be able to recognize all intervals on a staff? Examples are space to space or line to line. Isn't that a 3rd? Harmonic if "stacked" and Melodic if sequential.

Therefore, (I hope to not appear condescending), 2 spaces up or 2 lines up are a 5th.
This works on either clef. Take "FACE", If you start on "A" the space above it is "C" which is a 3rd & the next space above that is "E" which is a PERFECT 5TH above "A".

Every ELEMENTARY book I have ever seen elucidates a triad as a MAJOR 3RD WITH A MINOR 3RD. And the reverse for a minor chord. Furthermore, they diagram a diminished triad as 2 minor 3rds.

Has everyone lost their minds? Wouldn't an intermediate "know" major and minor 2nds, major and minor 3rds, P4, P5, major and minor 6ths, 7ths and 8vas?

I am a lowly intermediate, but maybe I should call myself a concert pianist? That's sarcasm for those who don't recognize it.

Anyway, the "MAGIC NUMBER IS 12" which I will attempt to illustrate.


Many people know the order of sharps is the reverse order of flats and vice versa. Well, the numbers work the same way. In addition, there are an infinite number of keys. In theory, the circle keeps on going.

Here goes,

Circle of 5ths demystified:

0       1        2      3       4     5    6      7      8      9     10     11    12    (num.of sharps)
C       G       D      A       E     B    F#    C#    G#   D#   A#    E#    B#  (Sharp Keys)
12     11      10     9       8     7    6      5      4       3      2      1      0    (num. of flats)
Dbb   Abb    Ebb   Bbb   Fb   Cb   Gb    Db    Ab    Eb    Bb     F      C    (Flat Keys)

Going clockwise around the circle, you go up a 5th and either add a sharp or subtract a flat.

From the diagram above, it can be seen, for example, that D# major would in fact have 9 sharps. This is to be expected since Eb major has 3 flats. So, what do you add to 3 to make 12? Nine of course. Or...

x+3=12 just solve for x

One more example, B# major, in theory is a key with 12 sharps! Think about it this way if B major has 5 sharps already, and you must sharp all 7 notes in that heptatonic scale then 5+7= 12.

I reiterate that, "12 is the magic number"

I probably pissed a few people off with this post. That's common for me though.

I just wanted to try to be helpful, Joe.

I apologize to any and all who took offense as none was intentional.

Hear hear, you say it like it should and don't walk around the edges, we need more of that.

You refer to "all the confusion", and then you "explain" things in a condescending and insulting manner.

Wow keypeg you seem to always find something insulting or someone not walking the moral tightrope you expect everyone to tread. LOOK AT HIS LAST SENTENCE goodness me.

[1piano4joe]

Hi keypeg,

Let me begin my apologizing again. But I am very confused (that's real for me) and perturbed by the OP's post and the responses which led me to think others were/are confused and in need of help. And maybe some of them are. I certainly don't know who could use some edification or whom might benefit from another point of view.

I would like at this time to compliment you on your very well written post regarding patterns and the order of sharps/flats. Nothing, nothing at all confusing about that whatsoever. So, I suspect maybe you took what I was saying both personally as well as out of context.

My confusion begins with a question to myself. Why in the world are there over 30 responses to such a trivial question when I often get no response to mine or only one well intended but useless one. I just don't get it. I'm astounded. Semantics, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "confused".

I did read in one of your posts, "It is ridiculously simple, how they work." which was preceded by, "I went 40 years without understanding how key signatures work." That made me feel bad for you. You yourself said, "It's a shame when a person is locked out because they haven't found the "key". I say "bad" and you say "shame". I think we are pretty much saying/feeling the same thing.

Anyway, I will delete the post, Joe.

[j_tour]

I found a picture.  It's how I imagined it.  No it would not refer to different registers, since flats or sharps in a signature applies to all registers.  Here's the pic:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Db_minor_key_signature.png/220px-Db_minor_key_signature.png

That's not just awful, it's gawd-awful.

Yeah, I'm familiar with Cb major, which is pretty eccentric, but at least understandable in some circumstances.  This is just an abomination.

Why?

What is wrong with people?

If somebody gave me a part with that....it would be a very close tie between getting into a fistfight or deliberately giving the least performance I could possibly give.

Beethoven notwithstanding.

[keypeg]

1piano4joe, thank you for your response.  I understand things better now.  I also went back to see some of your posts where you asked questions, since you referred to that aspect.

So, I suspect maybe you took what I was saying both personally as well as out of context

I very well might have.

My confusion begins with a question to myself. Why in the world are there over 30 responses to such a trivial question when I often get no response to mine or only one well intended but useless one. I just don't get it.

I may have an answer to that.  There is a forum for my own main profession, where people as about terminology in a linguist context.  If a simple question gets asked, loads of people fall over themselves to answer - because they CAN.  When I ask a professional level question, a few will pop in with a guess-an-answer (often wrong) until an expert might come in two days later and give something intelligent.

I looked up your posts, and the questions you ask are at times complex, and at times seem sort of philosophical (like the one about rests recently) that folks may not know how to answer.  The question here was concrete.  It isn't actually that trivial btw.

I did read in one of your posts, "It is ridiculously simple, how they work." which was preceded by, "I went 40 years without understanding how key signatures work." That made me feel bad for you. You yourself said, "It's a shame when a person is locked out because they haven't found the "key". I say "bad" and you say "shame". I think we are pretty much saying/feeling the same thing.

The thing about ridiculously simple is that it's made complicated, or not taught - if you're given the key to how things work, they suddenly unfold and you say "My, that isn't hard at all!"  You're not ridiculous or silly for not getting it. And sometimes teachers throw roadblocks in the way through some stupid, or half-baked, instruction or explanation.  If you start on the wrong premise, nothing falls in place.  Etc.

[ranjit]

Why in the world are there over 30 responses to such a trivial question when I often get no response to mine or only one well intended but useless one.

It's because the trivial question is easy to answer, period. Everyone will have a slightly different variant of the "right answer" and can shoot off a reply in minutes. Not all forum members will have enough expertise or confidence to answer a difficult question, so the easy ones tend to get more attention.

Also, the question can be interpreted as "how do you gain a working knowledge and instant recognition of all of the key signatures", which isn't that trivial of a question. Just like explaining intervals on a staff takes mere minutes, but getting good at intervallic reading to the point where you can fluently sight read takes months or years.

[j_tour]

It's because the trivial question is easy to answer, period. Everyone will have a slightly different variant of the "right answer" and can shoot off a reply in minutes.

Yeah, maybe yes, maybe no. 

I do find it difficult to relate on a personal level to someone who doesn't immediately know that three sharps is probably F#min or A.  And so forth through, I don't know know, the regular keys.

To me it spells not enough sight-reading:  this is music101, or whatever.

Not all forum members will have enough expertise or confidence to answer a difficult question, so the easy ones tend to get more attention.

It seems to me that real people get decent responses here.  Most of the time.  Some questions fall through the cracks, and some types are not taken to very kindly by the crusty old prospectors among us, when they are not well formed or are indiscriminately cross-posted without the courtesy of saying so, or are just outright spam.

I think the forum works pretty well:  there's a lot of talent and knowledge here, and then there's people like me who are just bottom feeders on the pianist's food chain, but who mean well, generally.

[lostinidlewonder]

Anyway, I will delete the post, Joe.

When a member feels the need to delete an informative post because someone feels offended by its subjective tone, that is a real shame. Luckily I quoted you before it was removed. Don't ever feel bullied into deleting a post because someone might feel offended certainly not when what you wrote was informative.

[keypeg]

When a member feels the need to delete an informative post because someone feels offended by its subjective tone, that is a real shame. Luckily I quoted you before it was removed. Don't ever feel bullied into deleting a post because someone might feel offended certainly not when what you wrote was informative.

I am glad you preserved it.  There was information in there.

[timothy42b]

My bad, I was remembering a Mendelsohn symphony, but of course it is a Mahler, the 4th and 5th symphonies.

the weird thing is in the bassoon part it is notated Db minor the first time and C# minor on the repeats:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-flat_minor

I don't know if he wrote it that way or the editor did that. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I am glad you preserved it.  There was information in there.

Even though you called it "condescending and insulting"? Very odd. Surely the fact that he deleted it because of your comment deserves some kind of apology rather than trying to side step the whole issue? 

[keypeg]

I repeat again - the INFORMATION itself was good.

[keypeg]

My bad, I was remembering a Mendelsohn symphony, but of course it is a Mahler, the 4th and 5th symphonies.

the weird thing is in the bassoon part it is notated Db minor the first time and C# minor on the repeats:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-flat_minor

I don't know if he wrote it that way or the editor did that.

Could it have to do with where it goes afterward?

[lostinidlewonder]

I repeat again - the INFORMATION itself was good.

Fair enough you refuse to apologize for bullying a member, well done.

[1piano4joe]

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