Mastering Piano Technique as an adult Intermediate Player

[anthclas14]

Hello There,

I had read in a post in the Performance forum's that was about 10 years old that:

"It takes one to three years to master all the technique necessary to be a virtuoso pianist.
It takes about ten thousand hours, or about eight years, to master any instrument - mastering an instrument is NOT the same as learning all the necessary technique."

This was in response to a post by a gentleman inquiring as to how long it would take to become a good pianist.

I am in a different situation. I am an adult (mid-50's) who had served as a semi-professional keyboard player within a Top 40/Function band for about 15 years. This was about 20 years ago. My piano education was as a teenager for about 5 years and sporadically as an adult. This was not formal training but rather piano lessons from a part time instructors.

Although, I had achieved a semi-professional status as a player, my technique was always lacking compared to classical pianist. This was in the capacity to execute trills, clean one handed arpeggios and scales up to speed. As such, I could not play any classical pieces of intermediate difficulty. As a keyboardist, the technical requirements weren't anywhere near what would be required for advanced classical pieces. This being said, I did need to execute songs that required some complexity (playing a song with my right hand and playing "left hand bass" with the other). So I did need to keep both parts separate in my head, which is a learned skill.

Fast forward twenty years:  I unfortunately suffered a hand injury a couple of years ago of the pinky finger of my left hand requiring bone fusion surgery of the (DIP) joint, the joint closest to the fingernail. I had the surgery performed by a specialist who was able to set my finger in a position necessary to play piano at a normal slightly curved position. I have lost a little of my ability to span an octave and a third and need to be careful when attempting to execute fast Octaves since I cannot pull my finger away from the keys cleanly in some cases.

In any event, since I am now preparing to enter the Corporate / Wedding band field again, I have since begun a practice regimen.  To be blunt, in addition to any skills needed particularly to re-join that field and improve upon my music education (Jazz/Contemporary/Pop), I would like to be able to bring my "classical" technique to a superlative level. With over 40 years of playing the instrument, I feel that I have the emotional / expressive intelligence to play these pieces to an extremely high standard. But, I am lacking a great deal of technique due to the lack of a formal structured education.

For example, I have seen classical pianist go through scale drills and passages at an extremely high rate of speed as required by the piece. I would also desire to master one-handed arpeggios, two handed crossovers, repeated notes, the playing of thirds ascending/descending and trilling in thirds (Reasons by Earth, Wind and Fire), and also the correction of the inherent weaknesses in the 4th and 5th fingers of the hand, more so in the left hand. And although YouTube provides an large degree of instruction in Jazz, Gospel, Contemporary and Pop music styes and also links to online courses and instruction, I really need to Master the Mechanics of the Piano itself while delving into these genres of music.

Most of all, I would like to have the capacity to play and perform the pieces of enormous technical challenges that I always aspired to such as Cziffra's transcription of Flight of The Bubble Bee and Tritsch-Tratsch Polka. Also Oscar Peterson pieces and Art Tatum's Tea for Two (which was reproduced with absolute authenticity by Yuja Wang). Also some pieces that were played by Horowitz (who I was lucky enough to meet at an autograph signing), at his famous Moscow concert. For the level I would like to achieve technically I know it would take years.... but three to obtain all of the technique necessary? Isn't that a little short? Although I do believe that mastering an instrument can be done in 8-10 years and maturing as a player.... a lifetime.

At this point in my life, I still have not achieved the dazzling technical dexterity as those who professionally perform 100% of the time for their livelihood. For a prime example of what I am looking to achieve, please reference concert pianist Kristina Miller, whose playing is absolutely astounding in both the classical and jazz idioms. According to her, the Oscar Peterson pieces she is plays were learned or reproduced from memory, not studied transcriptions, after listening to the pieces a number of times.

Perhaps someone on the forums could point me in the right direction to begin this journey again. I really do not believe that proper technique can be taught or acquired by an online instructor, but maybe I am incorrect in this. Maybe, one of the forum members also resides in my area and can refer a professional teacher for intermediate students. At the moment I am just completing John Thompson's 3rd Grade Velocity Studies for playing and site reading but also use the Finger Power and A Dozen A Day series for Technique.

Thank You,
 Anthony

[dw4rn]

although YouTube provides an large degree of instruction in Jazz, Gospel, Contemporary and Pop music styes and also links to online courses and instruction, I really need to Master the Mechanics of the Piano itself while delving into these genres of music.

Like yourself, I think you will need a real-life teacher to get anywhere near the goals that you've set for yourself. You may be lucky that someone here in the Forum might be able to recommend someone, but if not I guess you just have to start looking. If you know of any good music schools in your area that might be a good place to start asking.

That being said, in the meantime I think you can find some pretty good resources on the internet. Not all online courses are focused on a particular style, and a good online instructor of classical piano should not only deal with style and interpretation but also with the mechanics and techniques of playing.

[ranjit]

Most of all, I would like to have the capacity to play and perform the pieces of enormous technical challenges that I always aspired to such as Cziffra's transcription of Flight of The Bubble Bee and Tritsch-Tratsch Polka. Also Oscar Peterson pieces and Art Tatum's Tea for Two (which was reproduced with absolute authenticity by Yuja Wang). Also some pieces that were played by Horowitz (who I was lucky enough to meet at an autograph signing), at his famous Moscow concert. For the level I would like to achieve technically I know it would take years.... but three to obtain all of the technique necessary? Isn't that a little short? Although I do believe that mastering an instrument can be done in 8-10 years and maturing as a player.... a lifetime.

At this point in my life, I still have not achieved the dazzling technical dexterity as those who professionally perform 100% of the time for their livelihood. For a prime example of what I am looking to achieve, please reference concert pianist Kristina Miller, whose playing is absolutely astounding in both the classical and jazz idioms. According to her, the Oscar Peterson pieces she is plays were learned or reproduced from memory, not studied transcriptions, after listening to the pieces a number of times.

Sorry to hear about your injury. Your post struck a nerve with me, because although admittedly I'm much younger, I have similar ambitions as you state here, when it comes to playing Cziffra, Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, Horowitz, etc. And yes, Kristina Miller is amazing.

"It takes one to three years to master all the technique necessary to be a virtuoso pianist.
It takes about ten thousand hours, or about eight years, to master any instrument - mastering an instrument is NOT the same as learning all the necessary technique."

Quite frankly, I find this rather idiotic -- both of the statements are really vague. What is "all the technique necessary to become a virtuosic pianist"? Tens of thousands of pianists have put in ten thousand hours, and only a handful end up being able to play pieces at the stratosphere level of technique you're talking about. This is such a ham-fisted way of looking at things, it's ridiculous. There's no room for talent, no room for personality, no room for practice methods or strategies, which quite obviously make a huge difference in outcome. Eight years to master an instrument? So can I be a violin prodigy at 8, a piano prodigy at 16, a guitar prodigy at 24 and a saxophone prodigy at 32?

I think it is possible to learn a Chopin etude in 1-3 years with a very talented student and a great teacher, and that is probably about the limit of the speed at which anyone can learn. Your average student will take probably around 10 years, though you could argue that their learning is not efficient. The pupil who can play a Cziffra or Art Tatum transcription after 3 years does not exist. Even the quickest prodigies I've seen online take at least a couple of years to get to a level where they are properly playing the Chopin etudes. And now that I'm at a level where I could probably learn a Chopin etude in a few months, let me tell you (from firsthand frustration!) that there is a massive difference in the technical skills required to play a Chopin etude, and play something insane like Art Tatum's Tiger Rag or Cziffra's Die Fladeramus transcription. There is simply no comparison. The latter may well be impossible for a majority of people due to neuroanatomical differences (though nobody knows for certain).

If you take the composite student body at the top 100 conservatoires around the world, pretty much every student has been playing the piano since they were around 5, with a good teacher, and have performed concertos, Chopin etudes etc. by the time they were 15 or so. Even after they spend several additional years at university, very few of them manage to be able to play pieces at that level of technical difficulty.

This is not to discourage you, but I'm just trying to point out what I've seen, and how ridiculous the original poster's quote is in context.

Now, getting to how to go about trying to attain that sort of technique in my personal experience so far: If you want to figure out technique really fast, you need to constantly solve new technical challenges. Challenge yourself to come up with efficient movements to be play technically difficult passages on your own. And don't wait for teachers to hand you passages that are difficult! You need to be your own teacher and have your own vision, even if you have a teacher. If the teacher knew how to make any student a virtuoso, all of their students would be virtuosos. But adult students almost never reach that level -- and it's foolish to play the same game and expect a different result.

For the very few that I've heard of who managed to become piano virtuosos as adults (and I'm talking about the Chopin etudes variety, not Cziffra transcriptions), I've observed that they have usually developed some sort of obsession, and almost in every single case have attempted difficult repertoire which was not exactly assigned to them by an instructor, and attempted to play it with dogged persistence. And it's intelligent persistence -- constantly trying to figure out the best practice strategies, movements and so on. Make sure you teach yourself really good technique. If you have tension creeping up in your hands, you're doing something wrong. And "persisting" through that tension is laziness, you need to take charge of it head on and make sure you take steps to resolve it.

Recently, a lot of really good youtube channels have come up, and you should check them out. I would suggest going through as many of the videos as you can from the following channels:
Josh Wright, Graham Fitch, cedarvillemusic, PianoCareer, Denis Zhdanov, Danae Dorken

...and there are a bunch of others. But going through a couple hundred of their videos should give you a really good idea of how things are, and how you should proceed with your studies at the piano.

Take a look at what I wrote here and the ensuing discussion:
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3010526/re-what-wisdom-would-you-give-to-a-new-adult-beginner.html#Post3010526

Here's a recent reply of mine to a similar question:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=67343.msg705444#msg705444

[stringoverstrung]

Hello,

I think what`s important as an adult is to better understand why you are doing things.

Best tips that work for me:
- better use of practice time (variation is key)
- focus on relaxation
- Chopin Etudes as they each tackle a specific technical problem so you can pick one from the list.
- be very critical of yourself even at slow speeds

[mjames]

no offense mate but I think you missed your window by about 4 decades to become a virtuoso pianist.

There's a reason the vast majority of them started learning as kids...

[j_tour]

To be blunt, in addition to any skills needed particularly to re-join that field and improve upon my music education (Jazz/Contemporary/Pop), I would like to be able to bring my "classical" technique to a superlative level.

Probably not "superlative," but I've had a similar journey.  Although backed with training in younger years, in my case, but primarily all of my work as an adult in performance has been practical:  whatever a given tune needs, and never mind the genre.

It's just fundamentals, really:  destroy the ego and do things like painstaking staccato work on scales etc. 

Opinions vary, but I like the Cortot study editions from Chopin for mechanical work:  it's gratifying that Cortot's little exercises seem to underline the same techniques I learned as a child, which was many decades after Cortot's days of glory. 

So, I have some confidence that there are some underlying truths to the basic approach.