Chopin-Godowsky - Study No. 1 in C Major after Op. 10 No. 1

[lostinidlewonder]

I was wondering why there is no recording of anyone doing it in 3/4 time, everyone waits on the start of the dotted minums. It is very difficult to do it without that pause after each chord but I feel this is what Godowsky wanted given how it is written? Am I missing something and torturing myself to not pause for no reason?

3 beats how it is written:


4 beats how everyone is playing it:

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

Well, slap me silly, just listened to several versions of it on YT and they definitely sound to me as being played in 4 beats, too. 

If that's truly the case and there's nothing wrong with our hearing, I'd also lay the blame on the right hand's big leap just after the opening chord being too difficult to pull off, but that still doesn't make it right, right? 

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes we are not imagining it I guess because the original Chopin version is in 4/4 time people are naturally tending towards that but I feel it might be a cop out to avoid the evil Rh leaps.

[perfect_pitch]

The same type of aural illusion seems to appear with the 'Arlequin' from Schumann's 'Carnavale'. It sounds by everyone to suggest a 7/8 feel, when it's written as a 3/4.

(Jump to 4:23)

[lostinidlewonder]

But I actually counted the exact space between the notes in the Godowsky study recordings and they all are adding time with the chords rather than any illusion being present. I can also play it in both manners and it sounds different so I am wondering perhaps the change is to deal with the tough accuracy required for the RH jumps.

[lostinidlewonder]

Here is a computer recording without the pause:

No human recording does this so far from my explorations.

I was hoping I was missing out on something but the rest above the chord just shouts for us to do those devilish RH leaps (not to mention the LH does also get tough without any pause too but nothing like the RH) but when you hear titans like Hamelin also pausing it does make you pause for thought too!

It is 100% a situation where a huge amount of effort gives little return. I personally don't mind the rest on the chord but I also like it without it there is certainly a different sound but it makes the playing more much difficult. With the pauses you have this little recovery point every time which allows you some time to catch your breath and measure the next part, but without the pauses you are pretty much constantly on the run, it's very stressful but at the same time hugely exciting to attempt and certainly a challenge to make feel easy. The problem is that not many people would notice I guess, but as musicians we notice.

[lelle]

Possible - and in my opinion reasonable - reasons for stretching the time of that 16th rest:
* Playing it strictly in time is bloody difficult. Especially if performing live you want some breathing room to make sure you can start the 16th runs after the leap accurately.
* Playing strictly in time is bloody difficult and if trying to play strictly in time results in it sounding rushed and stressful because it is difficult, it's better to stretch the time a bit to help it breathe and sound more elegant.
* Big leaps, if they are melodic, should be stretched in time to imitate a singer. When playing melodies, you often take more time playing a 3 octave melodic leap than when playing a 5th, for example.
* Stretching the time helps clarify the texture, enabling the listeners ear to register the chord - which is the main melodic element - better before the sixteenths, which really are just decoration around the melody.

I think stretching it so much that it sounds like an extra beat may be too much though.. but that's easy for me to say, it's not like I am ever going to be performing this 

[ranjit]

It sounds much more like the original op 10 no 1 if played with a pause imo.

[ranjit]

Here is a computer recording without the pause:

No human recording does this so far from my explorations.

Please make a recording where you make these jumps at tempo. I for one would absolutely love to hear it! I think it has a slightly different texture to it, more soothing rather than profound if it's played like it is in the synthesia.

I am somewhat unhealthily obsessed with jumps. I find that I can jump from the C major second inversion chord at the bottom to the high E as fast as it is in the synthesia recording. I think of this as an "Art Tatum jump" and I love to do it as well where you just randomly hit a high C lol. I think the real difficulty lies in the fact that you immediately have to arpeggiate downwards, and for that you have to aim at a position slightly higher than the E, and reach there a split second before in order to give it the time needed to change direction, probably of the order of 50 ms or something. It looks physically possible to me at tempo, but I've never really seen someone do it.

Of course, all of this is obvious. I'm just very interested in the end result!

[lostinidlewonder]

* Playing it strictly in time is bloody difficult. Especially if performing live you want some breathing room to make sure you can start the 16th runs after the leap accurately.

Yes totally right. Honestly you would need some ice in your veins to pull it off in concert. If you miss the leap it will ruin the sound, the margin for error is extremely narrow. I feel though that if it was only a chord and leap with nothing afterwards there would be little problem. There is also the problem if you are using your vision to control your movements that one hand must be done totally blindly when you leap, when I attempt to watch the LH the leap in the RH really does test your spacial awareness so generaly the LH is done totally blind, given both are leaping about it proves to be a challenging situation.

* Playing strictly in time is bloody difficult and if trying to play strictly in time results in it sounding rushed and stressful because it is difficult, it's better to stretch the time a bit to help it breathe and sound more elegant.

Actually I feel that it is more elegant sounding without the rest but of course not as elegant in the hands! Personally I don't mind if the chord is held for a beat but it is a real curiosity if it is possible to actually remove it. I don't feel that Hamelin for instance would not be able to train himself to remove the pause, he surely has the capability to do it much easier than the majority of us. Perhaps I am wrong and the removal of the rest really frightens him too.

* Stretching the time helps clarify the texture, enabling the listeners ear to register the chord - which is the main melodic element - better before the sixteenths, which really are just decoration around the melody.

I think stretching it so much that it sounds like an extra beat may be too much though.. but that's easy for me to say, it's not like I am ever going to be performing this 

The standard human solution is to give the chords a whole beat then connect the rest. It is not written in that manner, I really would have loved to ask the "Bhudda of piano" Godowsky himself about this, he probably would have said, "What's the problem? Go like this!"  **starts playing like computer**

Please make a recording where you make these jumps at tempo.

A recording of this atm would make me feel really naked since I haven't solved it yet. I can at the moment only manage it around half tempo with accuracy, the jumps really are problematic and I don't know if I can ever get near 100% accuracy at tempo, it's pretty evasive atm, it feels like a piece which will require attention over time to contain.

I'd like to one day though record myself practicing a difficult piece from start to finish and not miss a second of the process. It would probably be extremely boring (except for the parts where I chastise myself) but at least would show the process realistically. I've seen some videos online of people practicing but it seems they are inflating their progress or are learning something they already are familiar with. 

I for one would absolutely love to hear it! I think it has a slightly different texture to it, more soothing rather than profound if it's played like it is in the synthesia.

You are right it is a lot more soothing, the computer recording has an alien type lightness to the playing and brings out hidden melodic lines amazingly but it seems impossible for a human to play like that (or at least would take even the best pianists a large amount of time to move towards it). I feel the solution for a human if we want to remove the rest at each chord hold the note you leap up to slightly longer. The computers metronome perfect connection seems like the Everest of achievement in the etude and something to strive for but I feel it is like a carrot on the end of a stick.

I am somewhat unhealthily obsessed with jumps. I find that I can jump from the C major second inversion chord at the bottom to the high E as fast as it is in the synthesia recording. I think of this as an "Art Tatum jump" and I love to do it as well where you just randomly hit a high C lol. I think the real difficulty lies in the fact that you immediately have to arpeggiate downwards, and for that you have to aim at a position slightly higher than the E, and reach there a split second before in order to give it the time needed to change direction, probably of the order of 50 ms or something. It looks physically possible to me at tempo, but I've never really seen someone do it.

Wow great you are excellent jumper ranjit! I think large leaps are one of the things pianists don't necessarily like to do, it doesn't make your playing a walk in the park. Your unhealthy obsession with them makes you a masochist lol!

If one simply plays the first 2 bars although it's still going to be very tough you can eventually grasp it. It's just that it is the contant bombardment of it that really is exhausting and difficult. It makes me think of a tumbling gymnastic, where they constantly are flipping without break as opposed to someone doing a floor routine which has rests inbetween the technical movements. I have also never seen anyone play the Godowsky Study here without rests, it is honestly an insane idea but it would be pretty darn clever to do it I reckon. As I said before I feel that some extra time can be given to the note you leap up to.

I think you made a very important point that the arpeggio that immediately follows makes the leap difficult. This is why I feel holding the note you leap up to in the RH is a good idea so you can prepare the arpeggio. The actual leap themselves are actually not difficult if nothing at all followed after it. You need to be able to leap and control it quite lightly, it is not just a heavy stab. If you are too rough with the leap then the arpeggio control suffers. I think this is the crux of the problem with this etude if you want to remove the rest. It is not the leap up with the RH that is the challenge but it is leaping up AND being supple enough to pull of the arpeggio right afterwards. This is the reason why I have been holding the note leaped up to in the RH for that little longer rather than resting on the chord for a whole beat. I think this must be a good solution to develop from. Since the arpeggio are generally played with a lighter quality this allows the accented notes and hidden melodic lines to be drawn out effectively (also something which is missing in a lot of recordings) which is a trademark of Godowsky's compositions, this just all adds to arpeggio control rather than the leaping problem but it is connected to it since the leap must take this into consideration. If there was nothing after the leap then our problems would be gone! Thanks for bringing that up because it made me more aware it something very important.

Of course, all of this is obvious. I'm just very interested in the end result!

I don't want to give the impression that studying works like this is something normal for me, it is a real tough challenge. I like to feel like a beginner again when a challenge doesn't solve itself immediately. I think teachers should remind themsleves what it feels like to be under stress while practicing, it gives you more patience with your students when they are facing challenges themselves and you can come to a better solution to solve the problem or minimize the stress.

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

I am somewhat unhealthily obsessed with jumps.

There's no such thing, mark my words, no such thing as an unhealthy obsession with jumps:

No such thing, indeed... 

[lostinidlewonder]

Stride piano has fun leaps though which feel nice  But on a Steinway!!! Sacrilege, it should be on an out of tune piano in a saloon!

[ranjit]

Wow great you are excellent jumper ranjit! I think large leaps are one of the things pianists don't necessarily like to do, it doesn't make your playing a walk in the park. Your unhealthy obsession with them makes you a masochist lol!

If one simply plays the first 2 bars although it's still going to be very tough you can eventually grasp it. It's just that it is the contant bombardment of it that really is exhausting and difficult. It makes me think of a tumbling gymnastic, where they constantly are flipping without break as opposed to someone doing a floor routine which has rests inbetween the technical movements. I have also never seen anyone play the Godowsky Study here without rests, it is honestly an insane idea but it would be pretty darn clever to do it I reckon. As I said before I feel that some extra time can be given to the note you leap up to.

I've found leaps to be very fun to work with. But I don't know if I would perform them lol. It's a nice gimmick which you can use while improvising though. I've found a kind of single speed -> double speed practice to work really well with leaps. That is, playing the leaps at a certain speed which feels comfortable slightly on the slower side, and then playing a similar figuration at double speed, and then back. Your ear wants to hear the rhythm go on at a steady pace, so it pushes the fingers faster!

While playing this leap, I realized that I had to push down with my left leg like a table tennis serve to generate the momentum. Of course, it is possible to do it just by flapping the arm, but that feels unstable. It would be physically exhausting! But I really like the idea -- that alien jumping has a very interesting effect which I'd like to see people use.

[ranjit]

There's no such thing, mark my words, no such thing as an unhealthy obsession with jumps:

No such thing, indeed... 

You're thinking small hehe.

Cziffra's GGC at 1:34: The left hand jumps are perfectly acceptable at 50% speed! They whiz by so fast you may not realize it at first, but slow it down to 50% and it still looks like those jumps are still being performed in real time. https://youtu.be/KyzzAV9GhHQ?t=94

Talk about an unhealthy obsession

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

Stride piano has fun leaps though which feel nice  But on a Steinway!!! Sacrilege, it should be on an out of tune piano in a saloon!

I know, but I don't mind being a bit of a sacrilegist...every so often, anyway. 
And I couldn't find such a version of that piece that convinced me. But then you've got this, which is closer to the mark  :

You're thinking small hehe.

Cziffra's GGC at 1:34: The left hand jumps are perfectly acceptable at 50% speed! They whiz by so fast you may not realize it at first, but slow it down to 50% and it still looks like those jumps are still being performed in real time. https://youtu.be/KyzzAV9GhHQ?t=94

Talk about an unhealthy obsession

Ah well, then there's good ole Ferenc for really big leapers, indeed! 
Now those are some scary jumps and bounds...
And always loved me these too, in the friska:

[ranjit]

Ah well, then there's good ole Ferenc for really big leapers, indeed! 
Now those are some scary jumps and bounds...

You underestimate it haha. This isn't Liszt, it's a Cziffra special! He transforms the bass notes into octaves and plays them 50% faster than anyone should have any business playing them. Most concert pianists I've seen on video cannot do this (probably).

Look at Valentina Lisista for comparison, at 1:39 in this video.

[kittenyarn]

Oh gosh, this piece by Godowsky looks really hard :O

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

You underestimate it haha. This isn't Liszt, it's a Cziffra special! He transforms the bass notes into octaves and plays them 50% faster than anyone should have any business playing them. Most concert pianists I've seen on video cannot do this (probably).

Look at Valentina Lisista for comparison, at 1:39 in this video.

Ah! I admit I'm not terribly familiar with the Grand galop, which is why I missed that detail, but then again I should've known ole György must've tinkered around with it! 

Oh gosh, this piece by Godowsky looks really hard :O

If you liked it, be sure to check out the other Chopin-Godowsky études, there's plenty of fascinating stuff among them, the left-hand only arrangements not being the least of them! Might as well whet your appetite a bit more,  here you go:

[lostinidlewonder]

Oh gosh, this piece by Godowsky looks really hard :O

There is a lot of repeated patterns and logic in the piece which helps a great deal but yes it is so easy to hit a wrong note or just hide your mistakes in a blur of notes (especially with the LH) lol. I feel this etude has a lot of relevance to much other repetoire out there and helps with arpeggio control which is such an important building block of piano playing. Some of the other etudes scare me a lot more, this one is difficult but acutally not ridiculous unless that rest is removed lol.