What should I, as a sort-of- beginner, focus on the most?

[lostinidlewonder]

It should be a general rule when it comes to piano technique that you play as lazily as possible, avoiding all unnecessary movements, contractions and expansions etc. Efficient technique produces movements which look effortless no matter what acrobatics are undergone. Certain movements are much easier than others like playing more inside the keyboard vs uncomfortably twisting your wrist. Studying the piano is difficult in that manner, you can get away with poor movements and still produce good sound but it is only when you try something else successfully that you start to replace old ideas with better ones.

[lostinidlewonder]

I really, really needed to read this. I thought I was a little "touched" with being such a stickler for the "ideal" fingering. It is comforting to know that that's exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.

Fingering is one of the most important parts of your piano study so the solution should usually not be arbitrary. Of course hand sizes, finger lengths, the physical make up of your hand will sometimes make the best fingerings impossible but then you deal with those situations on your level, it would not be a suggestion for someone who could manage the appropriate solution. This is not a failure for pianists if you cannot physically play the most efficient solution because piano is forgiving in the way that you can play something with less efficient movements but still produce a desired sound.

I have an especially hard time finding the "perfect" fingering. However, I do recognize it when I see it. So, I guess it's not all bad.... I only wish I could see that at once..

In general, I often can't tell whether to just shift my hand, skip a finger like 31 on adjacent notes, substitute a finger or cross over or under. Especially with Bach, it just gets "funky"!....

Any suggestions on how to improve fingering decisions/choices?

When reading a score you do need experience to be able to notice when your hand moves and what fingering would solve the situation the best. I teach my students this by bracketing all parts where the hand doesn't have to move or moves very slightly (which we call "movement groups"). The score looks like many coloured brackets highlighting when your hand has to move position, I can't really express all the logic that goes behind it or the variations as it is quite a large topic. This positional understanding is very important for optimizing fingering, almost always less movement groups will produce a better solution. This I feel is important because standard sheet music just doesn't pop out the movement groups without you actually putting them in yourself or having a lot of practice calculating them. If you are playing something easy enough it will be obvious but it is good practice to simply put them in with everything you learn until it becomes more immediately observed.

Like the simple Canon example above you can simply discuss fingering online of a specific piece and a specific section and see what logic and supporting statements you get from it. That is quite instructive. I enjoy solving fingerings because it is quite a fun part of studying the piano and something I do every day with my students. This calculation and logic is something I don't think is taught enough or discussed enough online. Piano fingering has a large library of intuitive fingering but it certainly has many unintuitive ideas too which people too often substitute for what they are comfortable with thus miss out on adding to their library of fingering understanding.

[ranjit]

I have memorized some of fantasy impromptu and although I could memorize it there is no way I could play it at that tempo accurately.  I need the foundation of skills you are talking about by playing many many pieces successfully and gradually work my way up to this level.

Just saw this. This is one of the reasons I think it's important to first attempt to play a piece at tempo. Too many people start something difficult at half tempo or quarter tempo, hoping they will inch up the metronome marking over time. Sure, if you can initially play it at 80 percent of the target speed, such a method can make sense. However, if you're too slow, then you need to learn new technical habits, and it surprises me that so many people do not find this obvious. (Maybe they realize it, but still do it under the influence of wishful thinking?) Regardless, it feels like a waste of time. I have attempted pieces far above my league, but I never spent too much time on them. If I spent more than a couple of days or a week on something (say, La Campanella) and didn't make any progress, I'd happily leave it aside and just tinker around with it once a month whenever I felt like it. I think the key is to not get too attached or try to force things. Once you find the right technique, it should feel effortless.

[tomp86]

Playing 35 instead of 13? I don't understand how you manage to get to 35 or find leading away from it when you hit the final chord in bar 8 convenient.

I took this fingering from "Toms Mucenieks" he is a yt piano player. So the fingering for the last 3 thirds we have been talking about is 35 13 24. Then on the first third on the 9th measure he uses 24 again. Im not saying either method is better just showing you how others are tackling it.

Also, I have another piece from one of my old textbooks (my teacher has written some markings on it) but it's a perfect example of a piece that is hard to suggest correct fingering. Please tell me if you think there is only 1 correct approach to play the RH. For me when I play it I sometimes I trouble never looking at my hands and doing intervalic sight-reading alone cause the fingers dont stay in an absolute position on the keyboard.

I teach my students this by bracketing all parts where the hand doesn't have to move or moves very slightly (which we call "movement groups"). The score looks like many coloured brackets highlighting when your hand has to move position, I can't really express all the logic that goes behind it or the variations as it is quite a large topic. This positional understanding is very important for optimizing fingering, almost always less movement groups will produce a better solution.

I get what you're saying. It seems like it requires a fair bit of thought prior to playing to piece to calculate optimal fingering groups for less movement before actually performing the piece

This is one of the reasons I think it's important to first attempt to play a piece at tempo. Too many people start something difficult at half tempo or quarter tempo, hoping they will inch up the metronome marking over time. Sure, if you can initially play it at 80 percent of the target speed, such a method can make sense. However, if you're too slow, then you need to learn new technical habits, and it surprises me that so many people do not find this obvious. (Maybe they realize it, but still do it under the influence of wishful thinking?)

Yes, it was definitely wishful thinking. I thought if I memorized it and practiced it I would be able to learn it pretty fast however I quickly realized I hit a roadblock in my progress and it wasn't possible to just practice it over to get good at it.  Although the first line of sure most of you agree is not difficult to play fast, it gets very difficult when you have to navigate up and down the piano very fast (middle of the 2nd line)

[ranjit]

Although the first line of sure most of you agree is not difficult to play fast, it gets very difficult when you have to navigate up and down the piano very fast (middle of the 2nd line)

I remember it being an upward arpeggio followed by some downward motion. Just practice doing that blind, and I think it should fall under the hand quite nicely.

[lostinidlewonder]

I took this fingering from "Toms Mucenieks" he is a yt piano player. So the fingering for the last 3 thirds we have been talking about is 35 13 24. Then on the first third on the 9th measure he uses 24 again. Im not saying either method is better just showing you how others are tackling it.

That is just stupid fingering which doesn't make sense.

Also, I have another piece from one of my old textbooks (my teacher has written some markings on it) but it's a perfect example of a piece that is hard to suggest correct fingering.

Feel free to share it.

Please tell me if you think there is only 1 correct approach to play the RH.

In the Canon example I believe there is only one easiest solution, it is not a difficult passage so like I said before people can get away with all sorts of ideas.

For me when I play it I sometimes I trouble never looking at my hands and doing intervalic sight-reading alone cause the fingers dont stay in an absolute position on the keyboard.

This sentence is a little clumsy but I sort of get what you are saying. There are variations to holding positions, sometimes it can be a solid unmoving positions of all fingers, other times there are small movements within the system, being able to control positions at the keyboard is a large part of piano playing.

...It seems like it requires a fair bit of thought prior to playing to piece to calculate optimal fingering groups for less movement before actually performing the piece

The calculation is a part of sight reading technique, the better you get at it the more immediate it becomes.

[tomp86]

being able to control positions at the keyboard is a large part of piano playing.
The calculation is a part of sight reading technique, the better you get at it the more immediate it becomes.

True. I need to put in years of practice.

The piece I was curious to your correct approach to te RH was 'Jig' a Dorian piece where the author says he cannot give me correct fingering. I need to find whatever fingering is 'best for' me


I also have a question for you teachers.  Once I play a piece successfully and move on, when should I (if ever) come back to play the piece again?

Also, I'm finding it very difficult to sightread the highlighted notes at full speed. But when I play it over a few times it stays in my memory as memorized note positions on the keyboard (not sight-reading). Is this acceptable and, if not, how to avoid it cause it happens naturally

I remember it being an upward arpeggio followed by some downward motion. Just practice doing that blind, and I think it should fall under the hand quite nicely.

I cant play the blue part at full speed. Im not exactly sure why its so hard but I think cause many of the notes are spaced far apart

[lostinidlewonder]

The piece I was curious to your correct approach to te RH was 'Jig' a Dorian piece where the author says he cannot give me correct fingering. I need to find whatever fingering is 'best for' me

So this question of the correct fingering of this specific piece has two solutions which is dependant on the tempo that the piece is taken at. Consider the slower tempo (where you of course can get away with all sorts of fingers and other options) then the changes that occur at faster tempo (consider around dotted crotchet = 180) and repeated note technique needs to be taken into account.

At slower tempo:
2 | 4-4311 | 2-22-3 | 5-5422 | 3----2
     4-4311 | 2-22-4 | 422311 | 2--1-3 | 5-5531 | 4-21-4
     5-5531 | 4----4 | 5-5531 | 4-21-3 | 422311 | 2--2--

At faster tempo:
2 | 4-4312 | 3-21-2 | 4-4312 | 3----2
     4-4312 | 3-21-4 | 313413 | 4--1-3 | 5-5531 | 4-21-4
     5-5531 | 4----4 | 5-5531 | 4-21-3 | 413413 | 4--4--

Some random ideas that might be interesting:
At faster tempo the LH also cannot play everything with simply 15, for example when it plays the rhtyhm: 𝅘𝅥𝅘𝅥𝅮𝅘𝅥𝄾 it should use (51 52 51) which will lighten the touch, excessive use of thumb feels heavy by comparison. This fingering also interacts nicely with the RH fingering at faster tempo too as you will notice the same fingers are being used.

Line 2, the last note of bar 2, bar 3 and the first note of bar 4. This is fingering situation to be careful with. In fact one might assume that instead of

4 | 313413 | 4

they might would solve it with

4 | 312312 | 3

There are two reasons why this is inferior. Firstly, using what I suggest will allow your hand to stay mostly the same shape, noticeably the 2nd finger is neglected where the other solution doesn't allow the shape of the hand to necessarily stay the same. Secondly the alternative option lacks harmony with the 3rd last bar last note to the end which is:

3 | 413413 | 4--4--

the start of this 3 | 4 is forced, and then it is nice to repeat that motion throughout and also keep the hand shape the same, this allows for very rapid speed potential.


With regard to why you can't read the chord, well I don't know why you can't there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to, if it takes time to calculate then thats fine, perhaps notice what notes you where holding before you enter it and it will reduce the amount you need to calculate, don't read everything in isolation to one another, they should all be related to one another. And talking about the Chopin here wouldn't be right, perhaps you should create a new thread and discuss the fingering in detail, there is certianly a whole lot of information that could be written about that.

[1piano4joe]

There are two reasons why this is inferior. Firstly, using what I suggest will allow your hand to stay mostly the same shape, noticeably the 2nd finger is neglected where the other solution doesn't allow the shape of the hand to necessarily stay the same. Secondly the alternative option lacks harmony with the 3rd last bar last note to the end which is:

3 | 413413 | 4--4--

the start of this 3 | 4 is forced, and then it is nice to repeat that motion throughout and also keep the hand shape the same, this allows for very rapid speed potential.

Hi lostinidlewonder,

This analysis is exactly what I needed to read. I especially like the reasoning behind your decisions/choices. The "why" this is inferior specifically.

Certain things occur to me as to why a given fingering is inferior when I analyze a piece and I then ask myself, "Are my reasons valid"? I seem to lack the confidence in my convictions.

I liked the "keeping the hand shape" explanation. I never mentally thought about it like that. I think I have done this on occasion because it just felt natural/comfortable in my hands but without knowing why.

I would have done the "slow" fingering exactly as you did. For this piece, a "fast" fingering,
never even would have occurred to me. When pressed for speed, I "know" to play repeated notes with a different finger for speed as well as to reposition the hand. Although, many times it isn't really necessary.

313413, wow, I never would have thought of that! I think I would have used the 312312. Evidently, skipping fingers and preserving/changing hand shape are not on my radar.

Thanks, Joe.

[ranjit]

I cant play the blue part at full speed. Im not exactly sure why its so hard but I think cause many of the notes are spaced far apart

Yes, I know what part you were referring to. You need to be able to do the right hand arpeggio first, without looking, and then do the descending run. It falls under the hand easily enough, but you will need to try to feel it out without looking at your hand while playing. That said, it is very linear, so it's not especially difficult to play blind -- it just needs some practice.

[lostinidlewonder]

This analysis is exactly what I needed to read. I especially like the reasoning behind your decisions/choices. The "why" this is inferior specifically.

I think more this kind of analysis needs to be done in piano groups.

Certain things occur to me as to why a given fingering is inferior when I analyze a piece and I then ask myself, "Are my reasons valid"? I seem to lack the confidence in my convictions.

I think that so long you are questioning and searching for reasons this is a good habit to get into.

I liked the "keeping the hand shape" explanation. I never mentally thought about it like that. I think I have done this on occasion because it just felt natural/comfortable in my hands but without knowing why.

It is also an example of keeping the shape but moving, I would consider it all one movement group since it all comes together with the same feeling. Some might think that movment groups are totally stagnant or with very small finger movements, but they also can be of these type, a moving system but which repeats a hand posture throughout.

I would have done the "slow" fingering exactly as you did. For this piece, a "fast" fingering, never even would have occurred to me. When pressed for speed, I "know" to play repeated notes with a different finger for speed as well as to reposition the hand. Although, many times it isn't really necessary.

I had to take a little time to calculate the fast fingerings, it is not something you'd be able to do instantly I think without using inferior solutions that you can get away with. If repeated notes are played slowly it is usually quite unnecessary to use different fingers for the same note.

313413, wow, I never would have thought of that! I think I would have used the 312312. Evidently, skipping fingers and preserving/changing hand shape are not on my radar.

One could break it down into a repeated pattern such as: CCD, BBC, AAB using (134 134..) and compare that to using the alternative (123 123...). Of course we should be able to do it with both fingerings but one might find that using the 134 gives more space to the hand than 123 which feels more tightly bound. The context of the Jig though pushes for 134 solution as described before.

I missed out to add that the solution I gave of 134 rather than 123 also allows that the 3 is the last note of the repeat throughout and the hand shape stays the same (for the first group that uses this pattern), this also provides security in the fingering at fast tempo. If you use 123 then the first time the 3 is used in a repeat 43, the 3 needs to be used to repeat a note, but then in the 123 the 3 is not used for a repeat but to play the adjacent note after the repeat, this change of duties can be a source for inefficiency. The second time we get to the pattern at the end the repeated use of 34 is most secure to use.

I think what makes studying the piano tricky is the fact that multiple fingers can solve a phrase of music but there really is only one strongest solution. People can go through their entire lives not noticing a particular idea in fingering. So many scores of music have quite poor fingering in them especially those which are meant to teach beginners/intermediate. It is quite annoying to me that it gets put out like that just to stuff up students who are trying to learn. I even hate occasionally some of the fingering ideas that the AMEB throw out and they have a panel of teachers looking at that!

[tomp86]

At slower tempo:
2 | 4-4311 | 2-22-3 | 5-5422 | 3----2
     4-4311 | 2-22-4 | 422311 | 2--1-3 | 5-5531 | 4-21-4
     5-5531 | 4----4 | 5-5531 | 4-21-3 | 422311 | 2--2--

At faster tempo:
2 | 4-4312 | 3-21-2 | 4-4312 | 3----2
     4-4312 | 3-21-4 | 313413 | 4--1-3 | 5-5531 | 4-21-4
     5-5531 | 4----4 | 5-5531 | 4-21-3 | 413413 | 4--4--

Wow thanks for your indepth analysis very good 👍A couple of questions on this.
1. When we want to play a piece in fast tempo do we generally play all repeated notes that are quater or smaller with different fingers?
2. Does this repeated note technique help to also keep the hand less tence?
3. Is it bad piano practice to play notes a third apart with 4 and 5 fingers? eg. FA 45

I also have a question for you teachers.  Once I play a piece successfully and move on, when should I (if ever) come back to play the piece again?

Anybody?

With regard to why you can't read the chord, well I don't know why you can't there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to, if it takes time to calculate then thats fine, perhaps notice what notes you where holding before you enter it and it will reduce the amount you need to calculate, don't read everything in isolation to one another, they should all be related to one another.

Thanks for pointing that out. I think it's just a lack of practice sight-reading

You need to be able to do the right hand arpeggio first, without looking, and then do the descending run. It falls under the hand easily enough, but you will need to try to feel it out without looking at your hand while playing. That said, it is very linear, so it's not especially difficult to play blind -- it just needs some practice.

Thank you for the tips. I just can't play it accurately and even with a fair bit of practice (doing what you said) so I think I should learn less challenging pieces for now cause I'll never be able to play it