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Topic: I can’t speed up a specific piece (Read 2422 times)

uv147

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I can’t speed up a specific piece

on: April 02, 2021, 06:10:54 PM

Hi
I’m currently learning Clementi’s sonatina In d major op.36 no.6.
Now I’m pretty sure I know all the notes, and my teacher says that my technique is correct and I am playing relaxed, but when trying to speed it up I find that I can’t play it faster than 135 bpm no matter what I do, I always either miss notes, have rhythm problems or get wrist pain, especially in the first 1/16th passage - that is giving me the most troubles.
I tried so many things, including:
* trying to play even more relaxed (thus compromising dynamics)
* trying to rely more on finger power (which helps with the rhythm problems but causes more tension)
* trying to rely more on arm weight and rotation (which causes rhythm problems)
* trying to play both hands separate and hands together at various speeds, trying slow practice, and making sure I know the piece perfectly (made no difference whatsoever)
* sit higher (I usually sit the the bench at it’s highest position, the only point where this made a notable improvement is when I added about 10cm, which made my lower back and wrists hurt a little)
* trying to sit lower (made my playing a mess)
* trying to practice more scales and arpeggios (I can play my scales and some other pieces much faster than I can play this piece without any problems)
* change my routine (for example taking a hot shower before playing, practicing in different hours of the day, changing my warmup routine and so on - that made difference for a couple of days and then reverted back to normal, also weirdly enough some of there’s changes made a difference at the beginning of practice session, though these disappeared after 20 minutes or so of practicing the same passage)

I guess the only thing I didn’t try is playing on other pianos or get my piano regulated, though it’s action is pretty light.

I don’t know what to do anymore, and I feel like giving up, it seems to be technically impossible to play this piece faster than I already can. Maybe it really is physically impossible? Is there anything I didn’t try and might help?

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brogers70

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #1 on: April 02, 2021, 06:48:31 PM

Quote from: uv147 on April 02, 2021, 06:10:54 PM

Hi
I’m currently learning Clementi’s sonatina In d major op.36 no.6.
Now I’m pretty sure I know all the notes, and my teacher says that my technique is correct and I am playing relaxed, but when trying to speed it up I find that I can’t play it faster than 135 bpm no matter what I do, I always either miss notes, have rhythm problems or get wrist pain, especially in the first 1/16th passage - that is giving me the most troubles.
I tried so many things, including:
* trying to play even more relaxed (thus compromising dynamics)
* trying to rely more on finger power (which helps with the rhythm problems but causes more tension)
* trying to rely more on arm weight and rotation (which causes rhythm problems)
* trying to play both hands separate and hands together at various speeds, trying slow practice, and making sure I know the piece perfectly (made no difference whatsoever)
* sit higher (I usually sit the the bench at it’s highest position, the only point where this made a notable improvement is when I added about 10cm, which made my lower back and wrists hurt a little)
* trying to sit lower (made my playing a mess)
* trying to practice more scales and arpeggios (I can play my scales and some other pieces much faster than I can play this piece without any problems)
* change my routine (for example taking a hot shower before playing, practicing in different hours of the day, changing my warmup routine and so on - that made difference for a couple of days and then reverted back to normal, also weirdly enough some of there’s changes made a difference at the beginning of practice session, though these disappeared after 20 minutes or so of practicing the same passage)

I guess the only thing I didn’t try is playing on other pianos or get my piano regulated, though it’s action is pretty light.

I don’t know what to do anymore, and I feel like giving up, it seems to be technically impossible to play this piece faster than I already can. Maybe it really is physically impossible? Is there anything I didn’t try and might help?

Well, you could try playing very short bits of the piece fast. There's almost no limit to how fast you can play 2 16th notes in a scale, right? So start by playing half a beat, or a beat, or even a measure of the piece. Work on that little fragment until you are happy with the speed. Then pick an adjacent fragment and have it overlap for one note or one beat with the first fragment; work on that second fragment until you are happy with the speed. Then hook the two bits together. You can just keep doing that, stringing things together until the whole thing is at the tempo you want. My guess, though, is that after you've gotten a big chunk of the piece up to tempo that way, the rest will sort of fall into place.

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uv147

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #2 on: April 03, 2021, 03:15:02 AM

Quote from: brogers70 on April 02, 2021, 06:48:31 PM

Well, you could try playing very short bits of the piece fast. There's almost no limit to how fast you can play 2 16th notes in a scale, right? So start by playing half a beat, or a beat, or even a measure of the piece. Work on that little fragment until you are happy with the speed. Then pick an adjacent fragment and have it overlap for one note or one beat with the first fragment; work on that second fragment until you are happy with the speed. Then hook the two bits together. You can just keep doing that, stringing things together until the whole thing is at the tempo you want. My guess, though, is that after you've gotten a big chunk of the piece up to tempo that way, the rest will sort of fall into place.

Sadly I tried that as well, didn’t work

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ranjit

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #3 on: April 03, 2021, 03:28:12 AM

This is rather strange. I would hope that your teacher would be able to suggest something to improve your technique. If you could post a video, that would help people better diagnose what's going on.

Can you play a small passage at tempo? If not, then it's clear that something is fundamentally lacking in your technique for this piece.

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #4 on: April 03, 2021, 03:48:18 AM

Select some bars to look into, write your fingering solutions or post a video. If you want more specific help this is required and I don’t think any generalised response is going to solve your problems here.

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1piano4joe

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #5 on: April 03, 2021, 03:53:45 AM

Hi uv147,

My score says "Allegro Spiritoso" which is around 120-132. Just curious but just how fast are you looking to play this piece and why? Does your teacher want it at 160 or something?

I think you've mastered this piece already, Joe.

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uv147

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #6 on: April 03, 2021, 10:48:11 AM

Quote from: 1piano4joe on April 03, 2021, 03:53:45 AM

Hi uv147,

My score says "Allegro Spiritoso" which is around 120-132. Just curious but just how fast are you looking to play this piece and why? Does your teacher want it at 160 or something?

I think you've mastered this piece already, Joe.

Hi
I was aiming for about 145 or so, mostly because I think it sounds better that way, but know I wonder if it is even possible

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lelle

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #7 on: April 03, 2021, 01:28:00 PM

Quote from: uv147 on April 03, 2021, 10:48:11 AM

Hi
I was aiming for about 145 or so, mostly because I think it sounds better that way, but know I wonder if it is even possible

I tried it out today at 145 and it is possible. But fast tempos require a more highly developed coordination and relaxation, which may take some time if you are not there yet. So be patient with yourself, as you'll often get faster to this goal if you are not in a hurry to get there.

I'll respond to the points you made in your first post, which might give you some clues to what is going on, but really, your teacher should help you figure out what's the issue.

Quote

I tried so many things, including:
* trying to play even more relaxed (thus compromising dynamics)

It's important to understand that relaxation has nothing to do with dynamics. You need to be relaxed both when playing soft and when playing loud. So if relaxing impacts your dynamics, you are not really relaxing in the sense involved in piano playing but doing something else.

Quote

* trying to rely more on finger power (which helps with the rhythm problems but causes more tension)
* trying to rely more on arm weight and rotation (which causes rhythm problems)

I honestly do not like either of these ways of thinking about technique. Try this:

Press down one key with, for example, your third finger. While holding the key securely in the bottom, can you grab your wrist using your other, free hand and shake it around without losing hold of the key with your finger (and without actively doing anything with the arm that is holding down the key to help the shaking movements)? Is your wrist loose and easy to move in any direction using your other hand or do you encounter some resistance or even stiffness? Can you do this with any finger or combination of fingers?

When you can hold down a key and move to the next key while maintaining this looseness or suppleness, you are being relaxed. Then you can call what you are doing to accomplish this whatever you want, but it's this state of freedom in your body that's important to find for yourself.

Quote

* trying to play both hands separate and hands together at various speeds, trying slow practice, and making sure I know the piece perfectly (made no difference whatsoever)

These are good tricks, that may help you get closer to the state I described, but if it's done while being tense, you won't get anywhere since it's the tension that is the problem.

Quote

* sit higher (I usually sit the the bench at it’s highest position, the only point where this made a notable improvement is when I added about 10cm, which made my lower back and wrists hurt a little)

I used to do this as well as a band aid solution, but as you can tell, it causes problems. If you can figure relaxation out, I find it more comfortable to sit rather low.

The other things you mentioned are also more external solutions that may help, but really, it's getting to know your body and learning how to let go of your muscles so they stay supple that is the important part, in my opinion.

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uv147

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #8 on: April 03, 2021, 02:17:39 PM

Quote from: lelle on April 03, 2021, 01:28:00 PM

I tried it out today at 145 and it is possible. But fast tempos require a more highly developed coordination and relaxation, which may take some time if you are not there yet. So be patient with yourself, as you'll often get faster to this goal if you are not in a hurry to get there.

I'll respond to the points you made in your first post, which might give you some clues to what is going on, but really, your teacher should help you figure out what's the issue.

It's important to understand that relaxation has nothing to do with dynamics. You need to be relaxed both when playing soft and when playing loud. So if relaxing impacts your dynamics, you are not really relaxing in the sense involved in piano playing but doing something else.

I honestly do not like either of these ways of thinking about technique. Try this:

Press down one key with, for example, your third finger. While holding the key securely in the bottom, can you grab your wrist using your other, free hand and shake it around without losing hold of the key with your finger (and without actively doing anything with the arm that is holding down the key to help the shaking movements)? Is your wrist loose and easy to move in any direction using your other hand or do you encounter some resistance or even stiffness? Can you do this with any finger or combination of fingers?

When you can hold down a key and move to the next key while maintaining this looseness or suppleness, you are being relaxed. Then you can call what you are doing to accomplish this whatever you want, but it's this state of freedom in your body that's important to find for yourself.

These are good tricks, that may help you get closer to the state I described, but if it's done while being tense, you won't get anywhere since it's the tension that is the problem.

I used to do this as well as a band aid solution, but as you can tell, it causes problems. If you can figure relaxation out, I find it more comfortable to sit rather low.

The other things you mentioned are also more external solutions that may help, but really, it's getting to know your body and learning how to let go of your muscles so they stay supple that is the important part, in my opinion.

I’ve been playing for a few years already, I’ve been able to play scales and other pieces at higher speeds with no problem, so I find it hard to find what I’m doing wrong here...

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lelle

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #9 on: April 03, 2021, 02:58:38 PM

Can you post a video? It may be possible for someone to help you a bit more if we can see what is going on when you play. Often the things that are blocking us, at least in my experience, are the things we are not yet aware of.

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timothy42b

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #10 on: April 03, 2021, 03:01:48 PM

Quote from: uv147 on April 03, 2021, 02:17:39 PM

I’ve been playing for a few years already, I’ve been able to play scales and other pieces at higher speeds with no problem, so I find it hard to find what I’m doing wrong here...

Is there any chance you learned this piece slowly, and then used the incremental speedup technique to go faster and faster, a little bit at a time?

If so you may have built a "speed wall." I have a video saved on how to get past those, but memory is not pulling up the name at the moment. At any rate, I would take a short section, say 8 bars, set a metronome to 160, and cycle through it repeatedly playing only the first beat of each measure. Or first half beat, or whatever it takes. The process is something like that.

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Tim

timothy42b

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #11 on: April 03, 2021, 03:56:15 PM

I found the video I was thinking about.

It's a little wordy, and it's oriented toward trombone rather than piano, but I think his methods do apply and definitely do work.

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Tim

1piano4joe

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Posts: 418

Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #12 on: April 03, 2021, 04:51:01 PM

Hi uv147,

At what tempo can you play each hand separately? Can you play at 160 with the left hand only, evenly and with dynamics, etc.? What about the right hand?

My metronome goes 144,152,160,168,176 & 184. The "Chang" principle works for me and many others. Accordingly, to play at 144 hands together, one should be able to play 5 metronome clicks higher hands separately. This would mean to play at 144 H.T. one needs to play at 184 H.S. Have you tried this?

Many, many times in life I have found the only way to solve a problem is to work backwards. Applying that principle here, if you can play cleanly H.T. at 132, then 5 clicks higher would mean you can play H.S. at 168.

I suspect that you can't. But if you can, then try 176 which should bring your H.T. tempo to 138 which would not only be an improvement but should convince you this method works.

I'm pretty sure that other performers who can play this at a high tempo can play even faster H.S.

That's one way to look at it, Joe.

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1piano4joe

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #13 on: April 03, 2021, 05:27:59 PM

Hi uv147,

I should mention I am currently experiencing the same exact problem. I just can't speed up without missing notes or playing unevenly, etc.

It's with Bach Invention #1, but I don't really think the piece matters.

Evidently, we both CAN play at a faster tempo but not without messing up. What to do? What to do?

I have been making slow progress. Maybe this is normal, I don't know. It's kind of funny but we're both just a little shy of the tempo we are aiming for.

Two things that are working for me so far, are to:

1. Just play much, much faster hands separately and ignore mistakes but notice where they are.

2. From this, I found for me, places where I needed to focus my attention. One spot I changed the fingering. Another spot I played both forwards and backwards and dropped notes. Started the spot from different notes, etc.

The result being that I found I could play at a higher tempo, cleaner, still not where I would like to be but at least I made some progress.

It seems this is a process that just takes focus, determination and patience.

I hope I have been helpful, Joe.

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #14 on: April 04, 2021, 12:10:14 AM

Some of us have asked for specific parts of the score to be discussed but that has been ignored and others have given detailed responses only to have a single sentence reply. At least make an effort in your response, people don't just want to hear you cry and then not deal with it.

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uv147

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 03:08:19 AM

Quote from: lostinidlewonder on April 04, 2021, 12:10:14 AM

Some of us have asked for specific parts of the score to be discussed but that has been ignored and others have given detailed responses only to have a single sentence reply. At least make an effort in your response, people don't just want to hear you cry and then not deal with it.

Hi, just a quick response:

1) I will only reply if I have something to add to the conversation, otherwise I’m just trying your suggestions and reporting of anything works (might take some time)

2) you’re totally correct, I should attach the score, it is attached to this reply.
The sonatina I’m learning is op.36 no.6, the part I’m struggling with is bars 10-14 in the first movement.

IMSLP29868-PMLP06617-Clementi_Op36_Schirmer.pdf (3064.24 kB - downloaded 35 times.)

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 03:35:42 AM

Quote from: uv147 on April 04, 2021, 03:08:19 AM

...The sonatina I’m learning is op.36 no.6, the part I’m struggling with is bars 10-14 in the first movement.

This part:

Are you using the same fingering as the image above?

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uv147

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #17 on: April 04, 2021, 04:42:14 AM

Quote from: lostinidlewonder on April 04, 2021, 03:35:42 AM

This part:

Are you using the same fingering as the image above?

Indeed i am using the same fingering, the tricky part for me is in the 1st bar when the starts going backwards, the the fingering is 3-4-5-4-3, when the 3rd finger is on a black key. This causes some rhythm porblems

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #18 on: April 04, 2021, 06:44:35 AM

If the problem is in your RH it could be a weakness in your 545 or 343, in this case you could drill those movements with a simple Hanon exercise:

545
CDCD AGAG, DEDE BABA etc RH(1212 5454)

343
CEA GFGFE, DFB AGAGF etc RH (125 43432)

practicing dotted rhythm alterations of short/long and long/short rhythmic couples, and then reverting back to normal. You can make the short notes as quick necessary and the long ones as long as you require but there should be an overall consistency binding each group. These two dotted rhythm alterations can be used for the piece as well, it may help you practice fast movements with slower ones keeping you in control. This is usually a good idea if you feel tense in any parts of the scale runs, you can practice the fast movements in a controlled manner which you otherwise solve with a tense hand.

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compline

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #19 on: April 04, 2021, 07:13:03 AM

Does it matter very much if a piece isn't played exactly at the stated bpm?

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nw746

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #20 on: April 05, 2021, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: compline on April 04, 2021, 07:13:03 AM

Does it matter very much if a piece isn't played exactly at the stated bpm?

Yes, of course. Especially in the classical era (& then again in the 20th century), tempo is as much an important compositional element as the notes or dynamics or pedal indications; arguably even more so, as it determines the prevailing character of the piece.

(Of course as it happens Clementi himself did not give a metronome mark for this piece, nor did any of his contemporary editors. That said there is another 4/4 "Allegro con spirito" with similar figurations he wrote around the same time, in the first movement of the Sonata op. 34 no. 1, for which Moscheles gave a metronome mark of quarter note = 152. Since Moscheles was a friend and onetime student of Clementi, that's probably the best evidence we're likely to get.)

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brogers70

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #21 on: April 05, 2021, 02:04:06 PM

Quote from: compline on April 04, 2021, 07:13:03 AM

Does it matter very much if a piece isn't played exactly at the stated bpm?

Since it's easy to find well-respected concert pianists who play the same piece at significantly different tempos, I'd say that the general opinion is that you do have a certain amount of leeway.

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1piano4joe

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #22 on: April 05, 2021, 03:55:59 PM

Quote from: compline on April 04, 2021, 07:13:03 AM

Does it matter very much if a piece isn't played exactly at the stated bpm?

Hi compline,

Firstly, matter to who? I think each person must decide this for themselves based on their needs/situations, etc.

Secondly, it depends. Some editions and editors have some ridiculous bpm tempos. I learned this the hard way. Only after some research on specific pieces did I discover that almost nobody plays them that fast. IMO these tempos don't matter.

Thirdly, when I have a "trusted respectable source" then the tempo does matter to me.

It matters to me for two reasons:

1. Since I am still developing my chops, skills, techniques, etc. and am not playing particularly advanced music then how can I expect to play some of the more difficult repertoire if I can't handle this easier stuff at tempo? Therefore, I had made it a habit when studying/learning/practicing a piece to be sure to stay with it until I could play at tempo. I still have this habit to this day! This habit has worked out well for me over the years.

Let's say a stated tempo range is 88-100. I would ideally like to play the piece at 100. If I'm learning a grade 1 piece then my OCD kicks in and I think to myself, well Joseph, just how are you going to handle grade 2 repertoire tempos? Most of what I do is "governed" by my OCD.

I will now digress to tell you about how this OCD applies/affects MY piano study:

1. I must do grades.
2. I must learn 30-50 pieces at each grade level. Sometimes, it's more like 100!
3. I must study pieces from all the different periods.
4. I must study music I don't like. This can be unpleasant.
5. I must play many, many different composers.
6. I must learn pieces in all the keys. Some keys don't have "easy" repertoire.
7. I must study "everything". I started over again with "Norton Connections" grade 1. This music was foreign. I had learned sonatinas, minuets, etc. This music is an entirely different world. Latin pieces, swing, blues, lyrical, jazz, etc. Such way different rhythms and syncopations everywhere and foreign harmonies. My brain and fingers didn't know what to do.

Yes, this could be seen as exhausting but I'm used to it and it's "normal" for me. I really do believe I am a more rounded pianist because of it. It's kind of like eating your veggies.

Anyway, I did say it matters for two reasons.

2. I was taught that a convincing performance is expected, needs to be, is required? to be at some minimum tempo. Something like that. I sort of agree with this. There are of course pieces that sound good at any tempo.

So, I was "taught" that with a given tempo range, say again of 88-100, that a convincing performance would be a minimum of at least 80. The general rule of thumb I have learned was around no more than 2 or 3 metronome clicks below tempo for a "convincing" performance.

Those are my two reasons, Joe.

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timothy42b

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #23 on: April 05, 2021, 05:24:07 PM

For some pieces tempo doesn't seem to be critical. As long as you play it smoothly with no hesitations or stumbles, it's fine.

Other pieces, especially in the jazz world, seem to only work at a pretty specific tempo. (maybe in the legit world too, could be I just don't listen to enough)

There I think the challenge is not so much playing it at the right tempo, but listening and feeling what that tempo should be.

Every once in a while I catch a bit of a Lawrence Welk rerun on the TV. Is it just me, or did he take everything just a little too fast?

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Tim

lostinidlewonder

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #24 on: April 06, 2021, 12:23:32 AM

This particular piece sounds fine even if you play it slower.

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mjames

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Re: I can’t speed up a specific piece

Reply #25 on: April 11, 2021, 01:49:12 PM

You won't like hearing this, but sometimes it takes awhile for the brain to absorb sh*t especially when you're learning new pieces. Honestly it looks like you can play it at a reasonable speed, just leave it alone and play some other stuff, learn new skills and sh*t. Come back to it later on, like 4 months or so, and you'll most likely be able to play at whatever tempo you want to play it at.

Sometimes the best solution to improving a piece is to just let it go.

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