Which martial arts suits pianists best?

[Deeply Satisfied]

I have read a few posts related to martial arts adn piano playing and there seems to be benefits.  Have been wanting to study martial arts for a whiole now and am wondering if people have suggestions about which type might best suits a pianist or they might all be great?  I dont know if this is the rigth place for this thread, sorry about that.

[bernhard]

I would say that both Aikido and Tai Chi Chuan are specially beneficial since they put much emphasis is correct use of the body and moving from the centre to the extremities.

But in general all martial arts are very beneficial. You must be careful with styles though. For instance some styles of karate require that you “condition” your hands and have “breaks” (breaking boards, bricks and so on) as part of their tradition. If you are a pianist I would advise you to stay clear of such styles. Also you do not want to get involved in any style that promotes full contact (“realistic”) fighting, unless you want to risk a period of time in hospital from “friendly” bouts with your academy partners.

As with everything else, research the subject, watch different classes, evaluate the skills and approach of the instructor (do you really want to enrol in a class run by an ex SAS or Navy Seal who still believes he is in the Army and treats his students as a sergeant would?) and use your common sense.

Finally your question is far too general. Be more specific and the answer maybe more useful. 

And here is an interesting reference:

Catherine David – “The Beauty of Gesture: the Invisible Keyboard of Piano and TaiChi” (North Atlantic Books).

And I just remembered: Lalo Schiffrin was a karate black belt.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Deeply Satisfied]

Well, knowing next to nothing about martial arts besides having watched all the "Karate Kid" movies (Ralph Macchio...  ) I think I got as specific as know how to right now.  Information provided is really just what I am looking for so far.  The styles thing is what I am wondering about, sothat is helpful.  I would like to kick butt though.

Looking for an instructor/class  maybe a theme of my life  will be fun.  I will read the book you have mentioned.  I will use my most common sense.  Maybe after I research I will be able to accurately evaluate the skills fo instructor.  What is an ex SAS?  Maybe I will just know the right thing when I find it  .  It's wortha try.  I will look into and study a little about the two kinds of martial arts that you mention. thanks.

[Deeply Satisfied]

Found this website and scouring it.  Thanks for the spark 

https://www.aikidofaq.com/

[berrt]

You must be careful with styles though. For instance some styles of karate require that you “condition” your hands and have “breaks” (breaking boards, bricks and so on) as part of their tradition. If you are a pianist I would advise you to stay clear of such styles.

Or you have to use really cheap one-way pianos!

Bye
Berrt

[Hmoll]

I did lots of martial arts during my years off from piano. Aikido is ok, but certain techniques - especially as ukeme - can put a strain on your wrist. What I liked about Aikido is what I liked about piano: very mental approach to solving physical problems.
Some Chinese martial arts would be good as well, especially the non sparring ones, like a lot of Tai Chi. (There are lots of styles of Tai Chi, and most people are familiar with the slow graceful movements. There are other styles, as well harder, much faster, with weapons, etc.)
Stay away from most hard styles - Tai Kwon Do, and other Karate.

If I won the lottery, I would study piano and Aikido full time.

[tha_raven]

Hey! Don't knock the tae kwon do. I been doin it  for at while an it hasn't done me wrong. 

[chopinisque]

Aikido and tai chi would be right.  Especially aikido.  Because it teaches you to relax and perfectly time your movements to the circumstances.  From experience, I can tell you, getting the timing and relaxation wrong will cause your tecniques to be completely useless.  Be careful of the throws.

[galonia]

I've just recently taken up boxing (my fitness trainer suggested I try it, and I did, and it turned out I was really good at it, and it's really fun!) - and I know people think this is weird for a pianist, since it appears this activity is high-risk in terms of injuries to the hand, so I have not told my piano teacher.

However, I've learnt that with correct technique, it's actually not as dangerous for the hands as it may first seem!

[brewtality]

Stay away from most hard styles - Tai Kwon Do, and other Karate.

i do tae kwon do and have broken boards with my hands. Honestly its not a big deal, when you've got experience then your risk of injury is relatively low. I've been doing it for 6 years and have never seen anyone sustain a hand injury.

[Hmoll]

 I've been doing it for 6 years and have never seen anyone sustain a hand injury.

I have.

[mound]

I have a black belt in Taekwondo, I go to classes 3-4 days a week. I have been doing Taekwondo longer than I have been playing piano. We have testing phases where we have to write essays on the various philosophical tenets of Taekwondo, and I will say that, and this I'm sure applies to most any martial art, the study of a martial art has numerous parallels with the study of piano, and these benefits build upon each other.   As far as a style "suited to" pianists, I would tend to agree that if you are looking to start a martial art, Taekwondo might not be the one to do, only because of the risk of hand injury.. I have not broken any bones or anything, but there were times when I was frequently "jamming" my fingers, having swollen black and blue (and purple and green) finger joints which would prevent me from practicing, and it really pis*ed me off.   That doesn't happen so much anymore because I've learned how to protect my hands.  I am very interested in checking out Aikido.  Oh, and I'll agree that breaking boards with the hands really isn't such a big deal, once you've learned how to do it.. Thats the caveat "once you've learned" - there will be a period where you are learning, and not necesarilly injuring your hands, but "hurting them" none-the-less.. Knowing you want to go practice piano and having sore hands doesn't really make you feel too good

-Paul

[klavierkonzerte]

how about ballet?

[Deeply Satisfied]

Well, it seems there are a number of you studying martial arts.  It is good to be disciplined like this.  Ballet is something done as a child, something very enjoyed and thought of often.  Have been wanting to return to this for years and years.  Thinking there would be merits in picking it up again.  What is attractive about martial arts are the philosophies, tenets and so on, which support the spiritual side of a person as well as the physical.  Piano playing is spiritual for me  and I am maybe aching for the strict discipline of a Sensei, somebody who feels passionately about their work.  Maybe both ballet and Aikido would be really good together, maybe not?  Wanting a life-rounded discipline, something that gets my whole life on a track...

[m1469]

ms. Satisfied:

I have been actually considering very similar things in my life as well.  How funny to me.  I personally think it is wise to be very jealous with your time and energy expenditures.  Are you serious about piano ?  I would think that if you are looking into martial arts and how it relates to piano study, you could be quite serious.  How serious are you wanting to be with martial arts ?  I would be a little weary of spreading yourself too thin, in thinking on both martial arts and ballet.  Those are just my thoughts, people may balance a lot more out in their lives with great success.  Have fun!

m1469

[timothy42b]

I am not sure that any martial art really suits pianists. 

All have some injury potential.  You said you want to "kick butt."  Well, you need to know that the most effective arts are also the most injury producing.  This is because to really be effective, you need to train brutally hard, and there isn't anything you can train that hard without gettin hurt occasionally.  It's part of the game.  You also need to work your technique at full speed against a fully resisting opponent.  The results should be obvious, both in effectiveness and in occasional injuries. 

You might want to try lurking on rec.martial-arts for awhile.  Be warned, they are not very polite.

I practiced Tae Kwan Do for quite a number of years.  I can't remember a time when I did NOT have injured fingers and toes.  While there can be lots of benefits to TKD, it does not have the reputation of being particularly street effective.  Aikido and Tai Chi at least on the surface appear to have fewer injuries.  However they are even worse for kicking butt - maybe somebody somewhere has won a fight with one, but then again maybe not.  Judo and wrestling seem to be highly effective, but again I've never met a serious player who wasn't continuously injured.  Check the TV matches, you'll never see anybody without tape on fingers or toes.  Brazilian JiuJitsu is now the biggest fad, and seems to have a clear edge over any traditional arts in street fights or UFC type matches. 

No good answers.  Maybe you could just get into power lifting and become insanely huge, then you could probably kick butt without the finger injuries? 

[mound]

It really boils down to what you are hoping to get out of it.. Will my TKD training help me in a street fight? Perhaps.. If some guy jumps at me with a knife or a gun, guess what? I'm happilly handing him my wallet. If some drunk punk trys to pick a fight with me at a bar, I'll probably walk away from him. If he persists and throws a punch, I will quickly take him out..

but I don't get in street fights. In my 29 years of life I have never been in a fight.. Never even close. If somebody tries to rob me on the street empty handed, I'll take him out.. If 3 guys try to rob me on the street empty handed, they get my money. If one guy tries to rob me with a weapon, he gets my money.

but that's really not the point for me.  Such a situation has never arisen, and I'm not going to dedicate large amounts of my time preparing for an unlikely situation. Many will argue that the one and only reason for martial arts training is self defense, and while historically that is truth,  to take one up today you don't need to look at it that way. Many styles alone really don't train you properly to really defend yourself.  However, the other benefits, all the parallels in so far as training your body and mind to focus and move and perform exactly the way you want them to, they go hand in hand. I would argue then that a focused effort on Ballet would have many similar benefits as a martial arts study, in so far as benefits to your pianistic side, Ballet however doesn't have quite the tradition and philosophical under pinnings.

-Paul

[timothy42b]

but I don't get in street fights. In my 29 years of life I have never been in a fight.. Never even close. If somebody tries to rob me on the street empty handed, I'll take him out..

<snip>
  However, the other benefits, all the parallels in so far as training your body and mind to focus and move and perform exactly the way you want them to, they go hand in hand. I would argue then that a focused effort on Ballet would have many similar benefits as a martial arts study, in so far as benefits to your pianistic side, Ballet however doesn't have quite the tradition and philosophical under pinnings.

-Paul

Take him out?  Perhaps.  I do not claim to be a martial arts expert.  I did spend ten years working on the back wards of a state mental hospital, and my experiences subduing violent patients would tend to lend credence to the modern theories that TKD isn't all that effective.  As always, YMMV. 

But your other comments are spot on.  It just seems to me you make a decision between training for optimum combat ability, and accept the injuries, or train for all the other benefits, and accept reduced or zero self defense ability.  In which case you should seek to minimize injury.  I tend to think it would be useful to have a realistic assessment of how your art will work in combat - few do. 

[lani]

My daughter has trained in taekwondo since she was 4 and also in wushu (Chinese contemporary martial arts).  She spars as well as performs creative forms with weapons (kamas, bo, spear, straight sword).  In sparring she has probably had more bruises and injuries to her abdomen, and upper body-tkd is awesome for girls because it uses their most powerful weapon - the legs.  The kicks are high (to the head) as well as to the torso.  Wushu is physically demanding-it takes acrobatic/gymnastic skill but is pretty much all forms (performance oriented as opposed to self defense).  Martial arts is her first passion, piano came later.  Proficiency in weapons involves developing callouses as well as wrist and upper arm strength, but she has never seriously hurt herself. She has broken boards (mostly with kicks), but has never hurt her hands.  I think the above posts make good points-if you are wanting to take martial arts for self defense, it will require some risks in training, but no more than most sports such as soccer, basketball, etc.  It comes with the territory to learn to defend oneself.  If this is your direction find a good dojo that reinforces sparring technique, control and protective safety gear.  BTW in tkd we use foam gloves on the hands as well as the feet, full contact sparring equipment.  Taichi is very good for meditation and energy flow (chi), but you will not learn self defense techniques as you will with hard forms such as karate, tkd or judo. Hope this helps.  Regards, Lani

[mound]

Take him out?  Perhaps.  I do not claim to be a martial arts expert.  I did spend ten years working on the back wards of a state mental hospital, and my experiences subduing violent patients would tend to lend credence to the modern theories that TKD isn't all that effective.  As always, YMMV. 

Hey Tim
Well, of course this also depends on what "take him out means" - if some guy on the street has no weapon and tries to grab me, I have numerous ways with which I can quickly break his elbow or deliver a strong enough blow to his head with my elbow or hand to incapacitate him long enough that I can get away.

I don't think I would ever have the opportunity to deliver a full force kick to somebody's head on the street, but if I did,  it would more than likely leave him unconcious.  Forms and olympic style sparring (major aspects of TKD these days) really won't do you much good in a street/defense situation.. We do emphasize the learning of joint locking and other self defense techniques..  I do agree, again, that TKD is not the most effective martial art to learn if your goals are purely for self defense.

But your other comments are spot on.  It just seems to me you make a decision between training for optimum combat ability, and accept the injuries, or train for all the other benefits, and accept reduced or zero self defense ability.  In which case you should seek to minimize injury.

I agree completely. My decision is weighted more toward the "philosophical benefits" than the "combat ability" - as I said, I've never been in a fight, never even close, and my personality plays a large part of that.  We do alot of olympic style sparring, and for all intents and purposes, that is a sport. It's full contact, but we're padded up, and while I can more easilly count the days that I don't have a bruise somewhere on my body, it's mostly the legs that get a beating.  The hands get beaten up only until you learn to not let that happen.

  I tend to think it would be useful to have a realistic assessment of how your art will work in combat - few do. 

Agreed. I don't have any delusions that my study of TKD is going to fully prepare me for "combat" - I'd have to study many styles and fully learn about weapons, foot and hand techniques, ground grappling techniques in order to have "the whole package" - but I don't need to go that far to reap the psychological/spiritual benefits of the study alone. 

-Paul

[timothy42b]

I didn't actually do that risk/benefit calculation myself.  I did TKD for many years largely because it's all I knew about.  So I thought it was the best - my instructor wouldn't lie to me, would he?  <grin> 

In hindsight, I think judo would have been a better choice, from the standpoint of effectiveness vs injury, and some other factors.  But back in the 70's it was definitely not sexy to do judo.   Karate/TKD were in fashion.  Still are I think. 

[Deeply Satisfied]

Got some stuff to consider here.  Have looked up an Aikido dojo that I could start attending.  I am starting to think abot ballet though too now a little more seriously than before.  But this information is really great you guys!  A lot of talent on this forum.

[timothy42b]

Got some stuff to consider here.  Have looked up an Aikido dojo that I could start attending.  I am starting to think abot ballet though too now a little more seriously than before.  But this information is really great you guys!  A lot of talent on this forum.

IMO this is a good choice with one caveat. 

It is fun, will give you all the classical benefits of martial arts, is relatively low in injury potential, and has zero street effectiveness - but 99% of us are never going to be in a street fight that we could have won anyway. 

Here's the caveat.  It relies heavily on a mystical concept of energy called ki.  Without wanting to start a big debate, you should know that ki is noncontroversial within aikido.  You are simply required to believe in it, and you will come to do so.  Outside of aikido, the consensus is that there is no such thing, it is simply a metaphor for relaxed coordinated movement, 100% explainable by purely physical means.  These viewpoints are 180 degrees apart and cannot be reconciled.  Go ahead and study it, come back in 20 years, and we'll debate ki.  On some forums, we'll STILL be debating ki.  <grin> 

[chopinisque]

Isn't ki the equivalent of the kung fu chi? 

BTW, aikido also requires some showmanship.  You're required to distract your partner with touches and movements to take his attention away or to temporarily confuse him.

[kilini]

Ki=Japanese.

Chi=Chinese.

[timothy42b]

Ki=Japanese.

Chi=Chinese.

Wie = Golfer.  good one, too. 

[mound]

my friend has recently started a form of Kung Fu (I'm not sure the name) -  he showed me some videos, it looks very interesting.  very violent.

I didn't actually do that risk/benefit calculation myself.  I did TKD for many years largely because it's all I knew about.  So I thought it was the best - my instructor wouldn't lie to me, would he?  <grin>

never!   

I did no such risk/benefit calculation either.. I was drifting, not staying particularilly healthy mentally or physically, smoking alot (not cigarettes if you catch my drift) and got to the point where I said "enough" -  I had known a few people who did Taekwondo, so I looked for a Taekwondo school and joined and was and am happy with that decision. Everything about my life, mentally, physically, spiritually (not religiously) has taken a complete 180..   Can I defend myself against a gang of punks with knives? No, and I won't try to.. but being able to do so was never the point. Everything I hoped to gain from it I have gained, and I continue to seek new goals within that space. I would never have found the focus, dedication, concentration and ability to set and reach long term goals needed for my piano study had I not found Taekwondo first.

but your mileage may vary


-Paul

[ShiroKuro]

This thread is quite old, and I should probably let sleeping "threads" lie, but I just can't pass up a comment! Sorry! if Mound and TimR take a look, that would make it worth it.

Disclaimer: I practiced Aikikai style Aikido for more than 10 years (and I haven't quit, I'm just on piano-sabbatical) So my opinions are biased!!!

First of all, there are a few different schools of Aikido, and not all follow a philosophy of Ki that is as.. "mystic" as Tim seemed to suggest.  If you've ever thought about what kind of touch you want to have when you play piano, or about playing to the bottom of, or through the keybed, you're dealing with the same concept that the main (original) school of Aikido uses when talking about Ki. Now, if you go to a "Ki Aikido" school, get your la-la meter out and it will go off the scale.

It's true that with Aikido you are probably less likely to get injured than doing other martial arts. However, as a beginner, learning how to fall/roll and be thrown can be hard on the arms and shoulders, and without proper (effective) instruction, it's very easy to get a shoulder injury.  Also, Aikido uses a lot of wrist locks and pins, which are especially hand-intensive. If you are practicing with a black belt as a partner, you are not likely to be injured when receiving that kind of technique, but with another beginner or intermediate, it's a bit more dangerous.

If you are new to the piano, I would suggest you not jump in to any martial art that is hand/wrist intensive, and if you do decide to take up Aikido, you should pay close attention to your practice partners, if someone looks sloppy, they may not be  very kind to your hands. Be sure to tell people "I'm a pianist, not the hands! not the hands!"

Having said that, Mound, I've enjoyed reading your comments about M.A.s and piano in other threads, and like you, I have found that my experience practicing Aikido has had countless applications to piano.

[mound]

Good post ShiroKuro!

Having said that, Mound, I've enjoyed reading your comments about M.A.s and piano in other threads, and like you, I have found that my experience practicing Aikido has had countless applications to piano.

Thanks! I think any martial art has countless applications in piano..  Risk of injury is definitely a good factor when considering which to try.

If you are practicing with a black belt as a partner, you are not likely to be injured when receiving that kind of technique

Tell me about it! The lower ranks (yellow/green/blue belt) are the most dangerous! They have enough technique and strength, but still lack in control.

-Paul

[invisible]

I have also decided to take up Aikido and have contacted a local Sensei.  He has recommended that I try out a class for free as well as observe other dojos in my area.  He suggested that I look for what is going on physically as well as energetically.  He also suggested that I interview the instructor. 

My question is :

Are there basic questions that I should ask? 

I really have no idea what to ask in an interview like this.

The sensei that I already talked with said that I would be paired up with an experienced partner.  Judging by some of the responses here in this thread, I am wondering if I should only pair up with a black belt partner?

sincerely,
invisible

[Daevren]

Does someone know the risk of injuring or even breaking a finger while doing kendo?

I might try that martial art if I ever get the chance.

[ShiroKuro]

Invisible, when you visit an Aikido dojo, ask what style of Aikido they practice. If you are not familiar with the various styles, ask them to explain to you. I practiced Aikikai style, so of course that's the style I recommend, but there are others (Yoshinkai, Tomiki-ryu, Ki Aikido.. etc)

You should also ask how they teach beginners. Will you start with doing only ukemi (falls, front and backward rolls) until they're mastered? Or will you start on technique right away and learn ukemi as a part of that? Is there a special class for beginners or will you join in a general class? If they say you'll be paired with an experienced partner, ask what they mean by that. How experienced?

Ask about the philosophy of the dojo, ask them to describe what the dojo's main aims are.

You might also ask about tests, how often they are held, who conducts the testing and if tests are mandatory or optional. And what are the testing requirements.

I could tell you the kind of answers that I'd look for, but it's not me who will be practicing, so you should see if the answers sound good to you or if they make you wonder.

You should also explain that you are a pianist and you're worried about your fingers. If they say you have nothing to worry about, no chance of injury, then I would say you shouldn't practice there! If they acknowledge your concerns and agree there is some risk, but people practice carefully and respectfully, so  they think you'll probably be ok, then that's probably a good sign.

Daevern, regarding Kendo... have you ever seen Kendo, maybe a demo or something? Kendo uses a bamboo  "sword" (shinai ), which is flexible but still hurts. Points are counted when the sword comes in contact with the wrist (!!!) head, trunk (body), or there is a thrust towards the throat. Protective gear is worn on the hands/wrists, head and around the trunk. However, I would be a little worried about all those sword-bangs aimed at my wrists and hands.

Also, if you're worried about RMI, Kendo and any sword/jo/weapons-based form requires you to grip the weapon basically for the entire time you're practicing, which is probably not a good thing for someone who plays piano for several hours a day. (tendonitis? CTS?)

I guess I'm too biased and maybe overly cautious, but I think it's one think for an experienced martial artist, who then takes up the piano, to continue with martial arts and piano. Being experienced at the martial art, you know how to protect yourself, or if you think it's too dangerous, you can judge that as well and make an informed choice. But it seems a little risky for a pianist to take up a martial art as a beginner...

Mound, are you still reading this thread? I think you are like me (did MAs for a long time, and then started piano, right?)  What do you think about this? Do you still practice Tae Kwon Do regularly? Do you ever feel like you have to choose between one or the other?

[Skeptopotamus]

hapkido.  it's very similar to aikido..... but it's cooler because i say so.  plus it will be easier to find probably because a lot of places that teach taekwondo teach hapkido.

[etudes]

any martial arts that do a mental practise for me i would go with aikido and muay thai(thai boxing)
regards

[etudes]

but my teacher plays (you use play? i dont know really english) judo

[Daevren]

Daevern, regarding Kendo... have you ever seen Kendo, maybe a demo or something? Kendo uses a bamboo  "sword" (shinai ), which is flexible but still hurts. Points are counted when the sword comes in contact with the wrist (!!!) head, trunk (body), or there is a thrust towards the throat. Protective gear is worn on the hands/wrists, head and around the trunk. However, I would be a little worried about all those sword-bangs aimed at my wrists and hands.

I have never seen people play kendo in person. But I do know the opponents sword gets very close to your hand very often. I am not sure if hand and wrist injuries are common, but I wouldn't be too suprised if they are. I was just wondering if someone has any real experience with it.

I don't really think grip and RSI would be a problem compared to the sword hitting the hand/wrist. I do know that the sword is just a bambu stick and that a suit is used.

I guess this martial art also isn't it for me. I always found it very interesting. My bad left knee(soccer) which I don't really want to risk another injury on kind of makes alot of kicking stuff martial arts not right for me too. I do want a eastern philosophy based MA, but not one too passive like Tai Chi. I guess Aikaido would still be a possibility, but it doesn't appeal too much. Well, I guess martial arts are just not for me. I have always been interested but I never had the possibility to start one.

Does muay thai focus alot on mental practice? To me it seemed like a very effective and straight forward martial arts. Of course it has alot if rituals if you have a true thai teacher. But I never heard it focusses alot on mental practice. Could you explain what they do mentally?

[etudes]

Does muay thai focus alot on mental practice? To me it seemed like a very effective and straight forward martial arts. Of course it has alot if rituals if you have a true thai teacher. But I never heard it focusses alot on mental practice. Could you explain what they do mentally?

i didnt say that muay thai is focus on a lot of mental practise
but i say i would go with muay thai
btw yes muay thai need also mental to practise (as every martial arts) how can you fight if anyone? if you cant fight yourself? and anothing i'm thai  so not really difficult of find thai teacher
about explaining how do they work with mentallity (can i take a bit time am not good at english  ) i would type it later.
regards

[mrcreosote]

Old thread, timeless topic:

Wing Chun 

Piano technique has 3 dimensions:  speed, strength, and accuracy - the exact same ones for any Martial Art.

I discovered this on my own.  Unfortunately, I was in my late 50's when that happened.  I needed this information when I was 12.

My life's error was focusing on accuracy, and then strength.  Speed eluded me - and my teachers too.

Knowing these 3 concepts, is the first step to major improvements in technique.

Oh, and there is perhaps a 4th one:  artistry.  It is important to practice artistry at the expense of the other three!  In fact, I've seen one really effective pianist that did just that. 

There is nothing worse than listening to someone play something too slow because they don't have the technique to play faster without error.   Getting comfortable playing at the correct speed leads to artistry which is the ultimate goal.  If the piece is exciting, your first obligation as a performer is to make it exciting!  And it is amazing how forgiving those listening are if you put it all out there, mistakes and all.

[ulven87]

Soon as I saw this thread I thought, "Wing Chun". It is so much about sensitivity as well as efficiency in getting the job done. The years of practice to become truly decent at Chi Sao (sticking hands). Only thing is, the sensitivity is there for near deadly purpose: disabling the attacker or worse if absolutely necessary. But, piano runs the gamut of sensitive, slow and sentimental pieces, to ones of incredible ferocity. Wing Chun has both in terms of its overall style. Slow to move at times then relentlessly fast at coming into close range and chaining attacks all over the opponent. Plus the speed of the chain punches are amazing.

Wing Chun  also has the first form. Although used to train positioning it can seem very peaceful and meditative.

[dcstudio]

my kung fu is strong