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Topic: Need advices on speeding up F major scale  (Read 2205 times)

Offline kindkaktus

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Need advices on speeding up F major scale
on: April 24, 2021, 01:36:18 PM
I've been learning Burgmuller's Innocence for a few months and I start hitting speed walls. To be specific, my bottleneck is the 4th RH finger in F major scales.

Any suggestions to fight this speed wall?

What I tried to far:
- HS practice
- slow practice
- relaxation
- Dohnányi's exercises
- abandoning this piece along with the F major scale for a couple of months

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Offline lelle

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 12:15:35 AM
Hi and welcome! Do you have the ability to post a video? It might help us diagnose the issue better because there could be a thousand things different going on and we don't know which one it is.

Practising slowly, hands separately, relaxing and abandoning the piece (if you just remain stuck with no progress) are all sensible things to do. But it depends on how you are doing them. Because if you figure out how to relax, for example, you won't have the troubles you are having, so it's likely that you are not as relaxed as you think you are. But it can be very difficult to discover what the problem is and what you must do on your own.

What's going on with your 4th finger and how is it hindering your speed?

Offline dogperson

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 12:58:58 AM
Can you reference the measure number and the fingering you are using?

Offline kindkaktus

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021, 06:05:27 PM
Hi and welcome! Do you have the ability to post a video? It might help us diagnose the issue better because there could be a thousand things different going on and we don't know which one it is.

What's going on with your 4th finger and how is it hindering your speed?

Here is the video. My 4th finger doesn't fill comfortable there while playing and eventually gets a bit tense at the end.

Offline kindkaktus

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 06:12:36 PM
Can you reference the measure number and the fingering you are using?

Bars 13-15. I stick the fingering proposed in the score I attached.
I also posted the video in my previous reply to lelle.

Offline lelle

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
Ideally you'd work on this with a teacher, but I'll try to communicate the gist of what I think is needed.

Right now, it looks like you are restricting your hand to only stay over the white key area of the keyboard, so you kind of have to stretch out your 4th finger forwards in a tense way to reach the black key. You don't need to exaggeratedly move your hand in and out to correct this, just allow it to be free to move in all directions horizontally as needed to assist your fingers.

Try this:
1. Let your hand and arm hang relaxed by your side, like when you are just leaving it alone and letting it be when you are not doing anything with it.
2. Bring the hand to the keyboard like when you are about to play, but keep it in the same state and shape as it had in step 1.
3. Where do you need to place your hand to have the 4th finger conveniently placed to play the black key without stretching it forward or otherwise modifying the shape of your hand? Chances are this is a bit further in than where you currently are when you play it.
4. When you play the white keys, you can let your hand smoothly move out a bit from the black key era to have the fingers conveniently placed for the white keys instead.
5. Adjust as needed when you play the scale but keep the hand in a neutral state and shape as your default mode. Move the hand rather than stretching out forwards with your fingers. You are already moving it laterally and up and down so you just need to allow yourself to move horizontally too.

Offline mila5405

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 10:33:46 PM
Pushing the weight with help of the arm only. Push from the elbow and the wrist will rise sligtly to play the black key rotating your radius sligtly towards the 4th finger (Slow and relaxed). The rotation helps the thumb to reach next key whereas the hand retains its  position reaching the C key. At the same time the elbow will go back to the previous position. This creates a circular movennt of the elbow.
This exercise is good fore losening up the arm wrist and hand. It the allows for the finger to work more freely and independant. You then apply Legato Non-legato or staccatto on this movement.


Offline j_tour

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 11:49:14 PM
Well, this is just a note from the peanut gallery:  I couldn't see the video at full speed due to a slight glitch on my end, but I think I got the idea.

Never mind that I don't really like the fingerings in the score as attached:  perhaps Bergmüller intended that for some reason, but that's not important right now.

But I did have a thought:  instead of stretching and reaching with finger 4, which I could see in the video, what about as a temporary exercise lifting the entire hand rather high indeed and letting the finger drop right onto the key.

You can bring it down later, but that might reinforce the intended motion, rather than pushing with the finger itself.

I see a lot of jabbing and reaching in 4 of the RH, which TBH, might work in practice, but it's not ideal. 

Just exaggerating the intended motion, and playing around with where in each bar you execute the motion, so as not to become a slave to it.

One of many strategies, that can be coupled easily with rhythmic variation or staccato work, that I sometimes use on myself.

Oh, as an aside, you mention slow practice, which the above is a kind of, but what about playing as quickly as you possibly can?  Never mind the correct notes for now:  you might find that your physical apparatus (arms, fingers, etc.) already has an "intuition" that you haven't observed for want of practice at a truly diabolical speed.
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Offline kindkaktus

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #8 on: April 27, 2021, 10:46:24 AM
I am truly impressed about the feedback I got and that everyone ended up with the same diagnosis about my 4th finger stretching out to reach the black key which causes tension!

The proposed methods to fight that are:
- replace finger stretching with in- and out- hand motion (lelle and j_tour)
- use wrist rotation (mila5405)

Do you think I should start practicing both in/out hand motion and wrist rotation or should I better stick to one method at a time to avoid confusion?

@lelle
During the transition from the 3rd to the 4th finger, should I start sliding the 3rd forward while depressing the A with it or should I move my hand forward right after the 3rd played the A?

@ j_tour
I do use fast practice, primarily to spot weaknesses and to prepare myself for ramping up.
Thanks for the suggestions on staccato practice, that's something I keep overlooking.

Offline ranjit

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021, 10:52:48 AM
It's hard to talk about these things via text. I would move slightly inward, in combination with a wrist movement. You should use gravity to drop into the keys, and avoid a pushing motion which would slow you down. In tandem with the wrist movement, you should then do a quick repositioning of the hand. You should attempt to maintain an even sound consistency throughout.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #10 on: April 27, 2021, 12:48:19 PM
Try playing everything with your finger tips and not so much the pads of your fingers. Your RH pinky at the start is practically lying on the note, it needs to stand more upright on its tip. The black notes should feel under your hand not you reaching up to play them.
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Offline mila5405

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #11 on: April 27, 2021, 08:12:19 PM
Is push my arm/elbow forward at the same time rotating it slightly towards the Ringfinger.
The wrist raising, releasing weight from the middle finger and putting it on the ring finger.
At the same time making  space for the thumb./Mikael

Offline lelle

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Re: Need advices on speeding up F major scale
Reply #12 on: April 29, 2021, 06:26:55 PM

@lelle
During the transition from the 3rd to the 4th finger, should I start sliding the 3rd forward while depressing the A with it or should I move my hand forward right after the 3rd played the A?


I'd say don't overthink it. When I slow practise, I am "in the moment", so I play the key with the third finger as if I don't know what is coming after it, and then I adjust position after playing the A, when I start moving towards the B flat. When playing fast the movement might be more blended but it happens as a result of the foundation I laid with the slow practise, I don't think about it. Other people find it helpful to consciously move towards the B flat earlier but it does not work well for me. Experiment! Whatever allows you to feel the most natural and comfortable is probably the way to go.
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