First piece of "Advanced" Repertoire

[2hottohandel]

What the first piece you learned that you felt was truly advanced? By this I mean that you felt as if it was a bridge from being late intermediate to early advanced. It would also be interesting it you told us what you were playing before and what you played after. If you don't really know whether what you were playing was "intermediate" or "advanced" (these  things can be pretty subjective), Henle can be a good source. According to Henle I am now at the very top of the intermediate level (level 6) but I feel as if I might not be ready for some of the level 7 pieces, so I'm trying to gauge where other people were before they made that jump.

[klavieronin]

My first "advance" piece was either Beethoven's first piano sonata (Op.2, No.1) or Rachmaninoff's Polichinelle (Op.3, No.4) Prior to that, the most advanced pieces I had played a few of the easier Bach preludes and fugues and single Beethoven sonata movements.

[dogperson]

Why make level 6 to level 7 feel like a leap?  You acknowledged that grading levels are very subjective, so pick out a couple of Grade 7 pieces you like, print out a free score from the internet and give them a try.  Some may go in the ‘save for later pile’ and there’s nothing wrong with that, but some may be YES, NOW!   You have developed the skills by now to judge by experimenting.  We are all different, so what might have been a leap for someone else, might be a very small step for you.

[2hottohandel]

@dogperson I will definitely try that today when I get home (At school right now). Some pieces that I had my eye on were actually the op 2 no 1 (I haven't played nearly enough Beethoven) and maybe Liszt consolation no 3.

@klavieronin I am actually playing Bach's prelude and fugue in E minor right now (Polishing the prelude, halfway through the fugue). What were some of the Beethoven sonatas that you played before op 2 no 1 if you don't mind me asking?

[lelle]

@dogperson I will definitely try that today when I get home (At school right now). Some pieces that I had my eye on were actually the op 2 no 1 (I haven't played nearly enough Beethoven) and maybe Liszt consolation no 3.

@klavieronin I am actually playing Bach's prelude and fugue in E minor right now (Polishing the prelude, halfway through the fugue). What were some of the Beethoven sonatas that you played before op 2 no 1 if you don't mind me asking?

Op 2 no 1 is a good late intermediate/early advanced sonata. Everything except the last movement should be within reach (you can even play the last movement if you don't aim for reachign the Prestissimo tempo).

Others that come to mind are

Op 10 no 1 in C minor, first and second movements. Third movement is fine if you don't aim for Prestissimo again :d
Second movement of the Pathetique sonata (Op 13), third movement as well.
Both sonatas op 14.
First and second movement of the Moonlight sonata.
Both sonatas op 49.
Sonata in G major op 79.

[ranjit]

Why make level 6 to level 7 feel like a leap?  You acknowledged that grading levels are very subjective, so pick out a couple of Grade 7 pieces you like, print out a free score from the internet and give them a try.  Some may go in the ‘save for later pile’ and there’s nothing wrong with that, but some may be YES, NOW!   You have developed the skills by now to judge by experimenting.  We are all different, so what might have been a leap for someone else, might be a very small step for you.

To be honest, I agree that grade 6 to grade 7 Henle is a pretty big leap -- grade 7 is typically somewhat advanced, and I would hesitate to play those pieces much more than I would when it comes to grade 6 pieces. Most of grade 6 lies within ABRSM grades and so is "easy", and most of grade 7 lies outside that and is relatively difficult. I think that at a certain point, there is more of a leap than a gradual increase -- your first serious Beethoven sonata or Chopin etude is usually something of a leap, from what I've heard, and you're never truly prepared for it.

[anacrusis]

Those grades are pretty subjective too, as you can tell from finding certain grade 7 pieces a big challenge and not others. As long as you are working on your base skills and playing plenty of pieces around your level there is nothing wrong to take on something mroe challenging if you like the piece. As another poster said, if it turns out to be too difficult, you can put it on the "save for later" pile.

[2hottohandel]

I don't really want this thread to turn into a "Recommend my Repertoire" type of thread , but could any of you point me in the direction of some good pieces slightly above my level. I am also going to look on Henle as well but I think that their ranking system is a bit inaccurate though (eg. Clair de Lune 5 Rach C# Minor prelude 5). I am currently playing:
Bach Prelude and Fugue in E minor
Mozart Fantasia in C Minor K 475 (I think)
Chopin Waltz in C# Minor op 64 no 2
Chopin Nocturne op 9 no 1

[lelle]

I don't really want this thread to turn into a "Recommend my Repertoire" type of thread , but could any of you point me in the direction of some good pieces slightly above my level. I am also going to look on Henle as well but I think that their ranking system is a bit inaccurate though (eg. Clair de Lune 5 Rach C# Minor prelude 5). I am currently playing:
Bach Prelude and Fugue in E minor
Mozart Fantasia in C Minor K 475 (I think)
Chopin Waltz in C# Minor op 64 no 2
Chopin Nocturne op 9 no 1

You got some Beethoven sonata suggestions from me bro!! 

[2hottohandel]

You got some Beethoven sonata suggestions from me bro!! 

True lol 

[lelle]

True lol 

If you want more tips, the Mozart sonata in C minor, which is often viewed as intended to accompany the fantasia in C minor, is a great piece that may offer you some challenge.

The Debussy Arabesque No. 1 may be a good fit as well

[2hottohandel]

If you want more tips, the Mozart sonata in C minor, which is often viewed as intended to accompany the fantasia in C minor, is a great piece that may offer you some challenge.

The Debussy Arabesque No. 1 may be a good fit as well

I have played soooooo much Mozart, but I haven't played any Debussy or stuff past Chopin in time period yet, so I'll probably look at that if I can find it on IMSLP lol

[lelle]

I have played soooooo much Mozart, but I haven't played any Debussy or stuff past Chopin in time period yet, so I'll probably look at that if I can find it on IMSLP lol

I have played soooooo much Mozart, but I haven't played any Debussy or stuff past Chopin in time period yet, so I'll probably look at that if I can find it on IMSLP lol

Clair de Lune is definitely at your level if you want more Debussy

[2hottohandel]

Clair de Lune is definitely at your level if you want more Debussy

Too overplayed though lol 

[getsiegs]

The first piece of "advanced" repertoire that I learned and have practiced up to a pretty decent standard was Debussy's Reflets dans l'eau. Around the same time I tried learning his toccata, too - that unfortunately did not go quite as smoothly.

[jimf12]

If you want more tips, the Mozart sonata in C minor, which is often viewed as intended to accompany the fantasia in C minor, is a great piece that may offer you some challenge.

The Debussy Arabesque No. 1 may be a good fit as well

I'm probably at about the same level as the OP and learning Debussy Arabesque No 1.   I really enjoy hearing and playing this, and would second this as a good Debussy piece to jump into.   Reverie is another.    Claire de Lune is in the queue. 

If that level or something like Mozart's Alla Turca don't count as "Advanced" then my answer to the original question is I am still progressing toward that.    As an adult (dare I call myself a senior?) re-starter after a very long lapse from the piano I have ground to cover, but I don't see why I can't make the jump.    You just have to press the right levers at the right time, that doesn't seem like rocket science to me.   

[2hottohandel]

I'm probably at about the same level as the OP and learning Debussy Arabesque No 1.   I really enjoy hearing and playing this, and would second this as a good Debussy piece to jump into.   Reverie is another.    Claire de Lune is in the queue. 

If that level or something like Mozart's Alla Turca don't count as "Advanced" then my answer to the original question is I am still progressing toward that.    As an adult (dare I call myself a senior?) re-starter after a very long lapse from the piano I have ground to cover, but I don't see why I can't make the jump.    You just have to press the right levers at the right time, that doesn't seem like rocket science to me.   

I'm probably at about the same level as the OP and learning Debussy Arabesque No 1.   I really enjoy hearing and playing this, and would second this as a good Debussy piece to jump into.   Reverie is another.    Claire de Lune is in the queue. 

If that level or something like Mozart's Alla Turca don't count as "Advanced" then my answer to the original question is I am still progressing toward that.    As an adult (dare I call myself a senior?) re-starter after a very long lapse from the piano I have ground to cover, but I don't see why I can't make the jump.    You just have to press the right levers at the right time, that doesn't seem like rocket science to me.   

Wow, thank you jimf12. I agree that we are probably at the same level. I will discuss some of those Debussy pieces with my teacher when I see her next. I believe I mentioned this before, but I have only really played Baroque (Only Bach), Classical (Only Mozart and CPE Bach), and Romantic (lots and lots of Chopin  )

[lelle]

Wow, thank you jimf12. I agree that we are probably at the same level. I will discuss some of those Debussy pieces with my teacher when I see her next. I believe I mentioned this before, but I have only really played Baroque (Only Bach), Classical (Only Mozart and CPE Bach), and Romantic (lots and lots of Chopin  )

Then some Debussy might be right up your alley. There's a lot of Debussy that's not terribly difficult and sounds really nice. Things that come to mind are some of the preludes from book 1 (The Girl with the Flaxen Hair for example), selections from Children's Corner, maybe the rest of Suite Bergamasque (there are three more pieces that are not Clair de Lune )

[getsiegs]

I second the recommendation for the Suite Bergamasque. The prelude would definitely be a challenge (especially if you have small hands - quite a few 10ths) but it's a great piece and the ending is lots of fun.

[kc_gracie]

What an interesting question. I will give you a couple of different perspectives.

The first piece that I learned that I personally (in my journey at the time) felt was advanced was the first movement of the pathetique sonata Op.13 by Beethoven. This was clearly the hardest thing I had ever worked on, had a faster pace, and numerous techniques I hadn't encountered yet, but my teacher thought it would be a great push for me...and she was absolutely right. After I learned that piece, which took some amount of time, I felt I could become a real pianist (whatever that means). I felt some sort of accomplishment and that I could push more and learn higher level works (within reason, of course). It was the factor that made me not quit, actually. A couple of years prior, I had such a rough time finding interest in the pieces I played and just struggling to care and get techniques down, that I almost abandoned it all together. My teacher saw this, where I had been, and somehow pulled me out. She started me with the second movement of the sonata, which I did enjoy, and is a lovely piece, but I was still not completely out of my slump. That first movement though, when she assigned that, I thought she was joking. After that, I tackled pieces of similar and higher level with so much more inspiration and tenacity that I literally learned as many pieces in a year as I pretty much had all together ever. So that motivating factor is super important. Prior to this, I had only played the second movement of that sonata, first movement of Op.2 No.1 by Beethoven, a random assortment of various preludes and easier fugues (much easier) by Bach, some easier Mozart works and sonata movements, the first movement of the Moonlight sonata, and some other pieces not necessary of mention. My technique was fine, but didn't have a lot of mentionable pieces under my belt yet. I was then able to complete that sonata, all of the moonlight sonata, a couple of rachmaninoff preludes, a couple of chopin nocturnes, and a couple of easier Chopin etudes within 1 year (among other various Bach work). I don't know the point of saying this, but it was a turning point for me.

In terms of Henle, the whole pathetique is rated as a 7, but I would assume that is for the 3rd movement, which I think is more difficult than the first. And the third movement of the moonlight sonata as well.

I also think we go through phases of what feels like a leap and what not. I am still going through these feelings in recent memory, even as of this week.

I think finding a piece you are interested in, maybe based upon Henle grading, if you want to do it that way, would be a good place to start. What piece speaks to you? And then maybe give it a look to see if you can handle it. You won't know if you don't try. And maybe also consult your teacher as well.

Just my two cents.

-KC

[lelle]

In terms of Henle, the whole pathetique is rated as a 7, but I would assume that is for the 3rd movement, which I think is more difficult than the first. And the third movement of the moonlight sonata as well.

For many people, I think the left hand tremolos in the first movement is probably the hardest part. I remember playing that sonata as a kid and having a much easier time with the third movement than with the first.

[kc_gracie]

That’s a very valid point. The first movement did take me longer to learn, and I learned it before the third, but I feel like it took some time to play the third movement well. I just remember the book I learned it from had arbitrary labels for each movement, with the first being late intermediate and the last being early advanced...but those labels are kind of silly and probably gave me some arbitrary bias for what I though was harder. Who knows. Those tremolos were definitely something at the time for me as well. And the hand crossing and so much more. I guess when I think back on it, the first movement definitely had a more continuous level of difficulty as well. Perhaps they both would warrant a Henle 7 alone, not that it matters. Either way, I love both of those movements.

-KC

[j_tour]

For many people, I think the left hand tremolos in the first movement is probably the hardest part. I remember playing that sonata as a kid and having a much easier time with the third movement than with the first.

FWIW it's probably the Pathetique as well for me.  I was used to LH tremolos, but not the precisely measured kind. 

Maybe there were other "adult" pieces before that in classical, but I don't recall and I certainly remember "conquering" that one.  The Beethoven Op. 2 no. 1 came before, but that was just the first movement (with the Mannheim Rocket figure).  Some others.  But the Pathetique was almost surely the first complete work of comparable girth.

[obtuserecluse]

Hi, there! Soo, my first advanced repertoire, from the year I was auditioning for high school, was:
Bach, a Courrante, Sarabande and Gigue from the 2nd French suite
Chopin Rondo Op.1
Beethoven, Sonata Op.90
Chopin, Etude Op.10 no.9
Ravel Sonatine

*I put more than one piece for variety, but my biggest challenges at the time were the Rondo and the Sonatine

Maybe you find this of help, dunno. 
Best of luck!

[2hottohandel]

Thank you to everyone for the replies! 

For many people, I think the left hand tremolos in the first movement is probably the hardest part. I remember playing that sonata as a kid and having a much easier time with the third movement than with the first.

I'm going to assume that the "tremolos" are the repeated broken octaves like those in measure 11. I have the music online, so I might read through some of it later today. I do have one question though, in bars 4 and 10, are those tuplets played to the metronome, or is there room for some rubato?

[anacrusis]

Thank you to everyone for the replies!  ;DI'm going to assume that the "tremolos" are the repeated broken octaves like those in measure 11. I have the music online, so I might read through some of it later today. I do have one question though, in bars 4 and 10, are those tuplets played to the metronome, or is there room for some rubato?

There is room for some rubato for sure! It's imitating gestures a singer could do, so you'd want to shape it so it sounds natural. You don't need to play them to the metronome, just get them approximately right and shape them so it all fits elegantly together and you're good IMO

[2hottohandel]

I'm thinking about looking at either (La Catedral Engluotie/Jardins sous la pluie or something from estampes) (spelling) or the Pathetique first movement. Would you call these advanced? Which would you say is the hardest and easiest. I do recognize that they are above my level, but if I find them too hard the worst that will happen is a few wasted hours. Thank you for your help!

One question, do you the third movement of K 332 sonata by Mozart is advanced. I've done the first movement, and was thinking of learning the other two movements over the summer.

[lelle]

I'm going to assume that the "tremolos" are the repeated broken octaves like those in measure 11.

Yeah, that's what I meant They can fatigue you if you don't know the right technique, sometimes to the point where your forearm seizes up before you've finished the exposition.

I'm thinking about looking at either (La Catedral Engluotie/Jardins sous la pluie or something from estampes) (spelling) or the Pathetique first movement. Would you call these advanced? Which would you say is the hardest and easiest. I do recognize that they are above my level, but if I find them too hard the worst that will happen is a few wasted hours. Thank you for your help!

I'd rank them from easiest to hardest La cathedrale engloutie, Pathetique first movement, Jardins Sous la Pluie, but with the last two it depends a bit on what your strengths and weaknesses are. If broken octaves kill you 1st mvmt of pathetique will probably be harder. But yes I'd call them all advanced, even though La Cathedrale is pretty easy as far as advanced pieces go. I'd give that one a shot if you feel motivated, it feels pretty cool to play

One question, do you the third movement of K 332 sonata by Mozart is advanced. I've done the first movement, and was thinking of learning the other two movements over the summer.

Sure, I'd say so

[2hottohandel]

Thank you so much lelle! Your input has helped a lot! I might bring La Catedral Engloutie and Mozart 3rd movement up at my next lesson. Thanks!!