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Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level (Read 7932 times)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #100 on: September 17, 2021, 01:20:37 AM »
It would be more beneficial for one to simply enjoy learning about piano, than trying to adhere to some superficial benchmark of mastery in x amount of hours. 
I think this comment will go over the heads of many people who have not had a long journey with the piano.

I cannot remember when I considered myself an advanced pianist, it makes me uncomfortable to say such things even though I've been teaching piano for almost 30 years. There was no moment when it occured. I have always thought the same, just keep learning, keep trying, work hard, aim for efficiency to make your life easier, work smart.

Today there are so many distractions it is no wonder posts like this exist. You see a little 5 year old child play conservatory music when you are dabbling with much lesser pieces. Thus it causes one ot overstep marks to try and rush the process, to prove they can do something, to compete with others. Doing this has a high propensity to trap you into a situation where you just pour hours and hours into something only to see miniscule improvement.

I would have to say studying the piano or any arts really makes a meal out of people who compete and compare. It screws up your journey. It seems to me that those pianists who are always comparing are those who have their nose stuck high up in the air when they achieve something because they feel they have the right to do so since they are so much better than others. You get weirdos in the music world all the time, I've come across a few on pianostreet, maybe one of them remembers why they blocked and removed me from their friendslist on facebook? I only ever said positive things to them but they thought they were too good for me lol. I still see their posts online and how desperate they are for attention lol. wow you are so good! lol.

Anyway! People need to stop comparing themselves with others, it just depresses you or make you think your poo don't stink. 

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Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #101 on: September 17, 2021, 01:37:27 AM »
I DID believe i could do it.But that positive belief/expectation just led to a relatively poor outcome.

How do you know that?  Maybe you haven't given yourself enough time to finish the job and are assuming conclusions before the necessary work is completed.  Give yourself time, there is no rush to learn everything at once.


If i can do it, well i should be able to have amazing progress by next week.

That is an unreasonable expectation.  Progress will happen over time, you need to have the discipline of patience. Be kind to yourself and set reasonable goals.

Thats the only way people get good.

Nope, not even close.

Listen to what the experienced pianists here are telling you.  You have received a lot of good advice in this thread.

So why did i try that in the past so many times, but little progress?

You tried it many times, but did you try something different when it wasn't working?  Did you try the suggestions that were given in this thread?  Did you try a new approach that was foreign to you? 

Can you do some of the suggestions in this thread and report back.


I DID believe i could do it.
I believed it would work, but it didn't.
Beliefs don't mean anything.   

For someone with such certitude of opinion in beliefs, why even try believing you could do it if by your own principle you already took the position that it was meaningless. 


So where does that leave this statement,

If i can do it, well i should be able to have amazing progress by next week.Thats the only way people get good.

The way you expressed the statement suggests a strong belief that there is only one way to get good.  But then again, as you say:

Beliefs don't mean anything.   

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #102 on: September 17, 2021, 01:59:15 AM »
Another mental trick (which I use all the time) is to imagine you're an absolute beginner. You know nothing. This is especially useful in your case because all of your past experience is hampering you and forcing you down the same alleyways over and over again in your brain. Now, how do you place your hands? How do you run a scale? How do you read music on one line? etc. Just imagine you know nothing, and "teach" yourself everything from scratch again, maybe even over a period of weeks or months. My preferred way to learn is to do this over and over again. It's humbling, but you catch so many things you can improve upon, every time. Strive for true perfection, and note accuracy will come knocking at your doorstep.

I think this is a great idea.  Free one's mind.  Be in the present, and tackle the problem in the present. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #103 on: September 17, 2021, 02:07:12 AM »
I think offering solutions to pianodannn's specific situation can be difficult because we need to go through it with him to see how he goes about doing it. We can say things like improve sight reading or improvise etc but how do you "exactly" do that for his exact situation? That is a deeper discussion which is necessary since discussing it on the surface is simply not enough and will have us running in circles all day.

Advice given needs to be meditated upon, it is certainly much deeper than what it looks like. Some people may give advice but not actually realize how deep that advice goes nor how to apply that advice to a specific individuals situation. The recipient of advice might not really understand what is being offered and thus miss out on a lot. It took me many years of practical teaching experience to get confident at diagnosing what a student needs to do and still today it takes me a while to get a better picture as to the way someone plays and thinks at the piano.

If we all work on a specific problem perhaps a small phrase of music, we might get some results.
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Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #104 on: September 17, 2021, 02:10:43 AM »
I think this comment will go over the heads of many people who have not had a long journey with the piano.

People at the beginning of their piano journey often want to play a advanced music.  It is understandable as the beginning stages can be tedious learning all the basic foundational stuff just to get on one's feet and play a simple piece.  People want to feel that engagement with music, and they may aspire to play certain pieces.  They listen to other pianists with wonder and say to themselves "I want to do that."  However, when one gets there (I don't think such can even be quantified), one comes to the realization that it is just the beginning, that there is just so much out there to learn and enjoy about music. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline ranjit

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #105 on: September 17, 2021, 02:28:11 AM »
I think this comment will go over the heads of many people who have not had a long journey with the piano.
I think it's not piano in particular which matters, just that they need to have attempted some difficult field of endeavor. I think many scientists would be able to understand exactly what is meant by the statement, or top university graduates in any field, etc. Basically, any high achiever lol

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #106 on: September 18, 2021, 01:45:00 AM »
  I think the most important thing is learning not to compare oneself to others.In some ways thats impossible.If you are fixated on reaching a "competitive" standard, you must compare to see how you are fairing.And the reality is most people aspire to have somebody elses ability or skill.But there is a time you have to try and blank out those comparisons, particularly if your not well positioned to reach such standards. There does come a time to accept some others are better endowed to accomplish certain things, and its probably best not to aspire to reach similar goals.But you can still continue in your own progression.It seems virtually certain to me that some people are simply not endowed to learn in the same way others are.I dont think its reasonable to assume all people could potentially do all things to a very  high standard.With any amount of work or training.There are still many who cling to such beliefs, but i dont think the evidence, or personal experience supports this. But there are probably other less glamorous things I can do that a "talented" person could not do.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #107 on: September 18, 2021, 03:34:57 AM »
“What I have achieved by industry and practice, anyone else with tolerable natural gift and ability can also achieve.” -- Johann Sebastian Bach
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Online brogers70

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #108 on: September 18, 2021, 10:12:03 AM »
“What I have achieved by industry and practice, anyone else with tolerable natural gift and ability can also achieve.” -- Johann Sebastian Bach

I love that quote, even though I think that what he says is not true. I had heard it as "I have been forced to be industrious. Anyone else working with similar industry would achieve similar results." In any case, I think it would take more than industriousness to equal Bach (Telemann, on the other hand......).

Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #109 on: September 18, 2021, 10:20:01 AM »
  I think the most important thing is learning not to compare oneself to others.In some ways thats impossible.If you are fixated on reaching a "competitive" standard, you must compare to see how you are fairing.And the reality is most people aspire to have somebody elses ability or skill.But there is a time you have to try and blank out those comparisons, particularly if your not well positioned to reach such standards. There does come a time to accept some others are better endowed to accomplish certain things, and its probably best not to aspire to reach similar goals.But you can still continue in your own progression.It seems virtually certain to me that some people are simply not endowed to learn in the same way others are.I dont think its reasonable to assume all people could potentially do all things to a very  high standard.With any amount of work or training.There are still many who cling to such beliefs, but i dont think the evidence, or personal experience supports this. But there are probably other less glamorous things I can do that a "talented" person could not do.

So which of the many suggestions received in this thread have you tried?  What were the results?

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #110 on: September 18, 2021, 10:48:27 AM »
“What I have achieved by industry and practice, anyone else with tolerable natural gift and ability can also achieve.” -- Johann Sebastian Bach

This quote goes deeper than many will realize. 

When one studies the methods of teaching the playing and improvising of music in Bach's time, there is a sense of clear methodology to common practice music making.  While there were elaborate theories and treatises being studied, there was also a very practical sense of teaching students to achieve period correct music without the fuss of being overwhelmed by theory.  One could facilitate music making far better if one's mind was not crammed with theories when trying to play the instrument, but rather use and combine sets of easily workable tools to make music at the instrument.  It would involve spending the time to learn the tools and practice them, just as students today take their time to learn scales.

A lot of this is lost to modern classical music training, as activities such as improvising simple pieces with period appropriate techniques, harmony and form is unfortunately not valued by many teachers today. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Online brogers70

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #111 on: September 18, 2021, 11:28:13 AM »
  I think the most important thing is learning not to compare oneself to others.In some ways thats impossible.If you are fixated on reaching a "competitive" standard, you must compare to see how you are fairing.And the reality is most people aspire to have somebody elses ability or skill.But there is a time you have to try and blank out those comparisons, particularly if your not well positioned to reach such standards. There does come a time to accept some others are better endowed to accomplish certain things, and its probably best not to aspire to reach similar goals.But you can still continue in your own progression.It seems virtually certain to me that some people are simply not endowed to learn in the same way others are.I dont think its reasonable to assume all people could potentially do all things to a very  high standard.With any amount of work or training.There are still many who cling to such beliefs, but i dont think the evidence, or personal experience supports this. But there are probably other less glamorous things I can do that a "talented" person could not do.

No matter who you are or how talented you are, by far the most likely experience you will have is that there will be people who are better at whatever you love doing than you are yourself. A state politician in the US might think that getting into the US Senate is the height of political success, but a senator there may feel like he's not doing as well as he should if he's not the Chair of a powerful committee within the senate. And the same could be said in any field. So you have to take your satisfaction from doing the things you enjoy, regardless of how well others are able to do them, and from finding ways to enjoy developing your skills as much as you can.

Offline ranjit

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #112 on: September 18, 2021, 07:41:14 PM »
There does come a time to accept some others are better endowed to accomplish certain things, and its probably best not to aspire to reach similar goals.But you can still continue in your own progression.It seems virtually certain to me that some people are simply not endowed to learn in the same way others are.I dont think its reasonable to assume all people could potentially do all things to a very  high standard.With any amount of work or training.
It's my personal view that most people can get pretty far if they don't get stuck in their own views and actively improve various aspects of what they are doing constantly, without an interfering ego. At the highest levels of anything, you have feats so improbable that you are left wondering how anyone could do it. I couldn't even imagine learning a 40-minute concerto in 1 week, and yet there are people who have. On the other hand, it makes you realize that there may be more scope for improvement. If not a huge concerto, can you learn a piece which is 5-10 minutes long, at your level and not too complex, in that period of time? If you can't develop photographic memory, can you still develop the skill to hold 2-3 measures in your mind's eye? There's more scope for improvement than most realize imo. I have clearly noticed differences in my hearing, being able to distinguish and keep track of multiple voices much easier, and my hand coordination and awareness such as being better able to imitate a movement I've done with my right hand, with my left, in general. There are clear differences you can feel once you get to a certain stage when you get the feeling that some significant rewiring has taken place in your brain, for this new skill.

Online lelle

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #113 on: September 18, 2021, 09:40:31 PM »
I think if the goal is to reach some arbitrary goal you don't know if you can reach, rather than to enjoy the journey and seeing where it takes you, you are kind of setting yourself up for suffering. You can make significant improvements over time just by continuing to work and investigating how to improve your process, but if you are attached to reaching those improvements NOW rather than letting them come if they come, the process becomes much less enjoyable. This is just my own experience however.

Offline dogperson

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #114 on: September 18, 2021, 10:01:48 PM »
To me, Quantum’s question to the OP is a great one:
What suggestions recommended here have been tried?  What was the result?


Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #115 on: September 19, 2021, 12:30:17 AM »
To me, Quantum’s question to the OP is a great one:
What suggestions recommended here have been tried?  What was the result?
   Well, at least to some extent all of them.E.g sitting further back for wide piece, maybe slight help. Letting go of tension, i tried but its kind of contraversial because tension in the muscles is what generatedsmovements, so in fact you can't eliminate it, and i find you really need a positive kind of hold over your hands.If you relax too much you are just flailing in the wind so to speak and you loose accuracy.
   I cant identify any particular hand position or form that greatly facilitates greater speed or nimbleness during arpeggios.I probably watched 20 hours of tutorials over the last month, but i can't really get great gains by playing around with what i have seen.
   I already do focus heavily on dynamics and rythym etc.So its not like i neglect those things.I mean i posted that clip, i was practicing at 42 bpm 1/8th notes i think.I am able to work around the 45bpm mark now, but still touch and go at that speed.I pretty much spent an hour a day for idk 3 or 4 weeks to achieve that gain.I also used 2 or 3 different fingering exercises designed specifically to assist with speed, and focussed a bit more on scales, using a very structured technique recommended my a good player, because another jazz pianist suggested scales were one of the most key elements to bolstering speed.
   So i tried quite a few things, and i started having lessons, but only 1 so far. I Guess im progressing, but it seems like others could do it much easier sometimes.Should it take 1 year to work a specific arpeggio from say 38 to 75 bpm, if you practice each day?
  In any event im leaving that piece at 45bpm once i get confident at that speed.Its still sounds good at that speed, and i need to go back to spending the time on other aspects, revising some other music and finishing off another piece thats 80% done.I have to step back from the really fast stuff for a while after that.Its obviously pushing my limits.

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #116 on: September 19, 2021, 12:49:53 AM »
 Also i find learned material atrophies quite fast for me.For example i will notice a significant decline in my ability to play a piece after even a few days without practicing it.This is less so the case for pieces that i know very well.But if i dont play something for 3 months, i have to spend considerable time freshening it up.Some others can mothball a piece for 1 year, come back to it and it's almost like they just left it!

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #117 on: September 19, 2021, 01:35:32 AM »
All this generalized talk really is just going to have everyone going in circles and nothing really getting solved. Take a bar or phrase of specific music, copy paste it down for everyone to see, write your specific problem and lets get solving. It might be only a small drop in the ocean of problems you face but at least you will get some specific answers not generalized suggestions which require you have someone monitor how you are actually using the advice.

Also i find learned material atrophies quite fast for me.For example i will notice a significant decline in my ability to play a piece after even a few days without practicing it.This is less so the case for pieces that i know very well.But if i dont play something for 3 months, i have to spend considerable time freshening it up.Some others can mothball a piece for 1 year, come back to it and it's almost like they just left it!
I feel you are being far too pessimistic about regression in a piece you don't keep contact with. I am yet to find anyone who requires as much time or more time to refresh a piece compred to when they first learned it. This is a process which you can get better at but if you keep everything in your head then it can be problematic and feel worse than it really is. I think you are overestimating some peoples ability, I don't know anyone who can not play something for 1 year and then all of a sudden play it as if they never broke contact with it, maybe if the piece is severely easy or they can sight read it without effort, but otherwise everyone needs some brushing up.



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Offline ranjit

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #118 on: September 19, 2021, 03:57:39 PM »
   I Guess im progressing, but it seems like others could do it much easier sometimes.Should it take 1 year to work a specific arpeggio from say 38 to 75 bpm, if you practice each day?
Here's what worked for me to do fast arpeggios: Nike it. Just do it, lol. The point is that you need to develop that confidence while jumping from octave to octave. Don't try to play slow arpeggios and speed them up. Instead, try to play them as fast as you can physically manage, even sacrificing dynamics and accuracy. It might sound odd, but I've found that arpeggios aren't like scales, you need to develop some kind of confidence and internalize the feeling of playing them fast, not just be methodical about them.

Try out something like Jarrod Radnich - Harry Potter (the right hand arpeggios), or the first few lines of Chopin scherzo no 2, not with the aim of getting them perfect, but just to try to get those arpeggios at speed. Dare to do it, really. That's what worked for me.

Try this for about a month, at most. You should feel a difference in a week, probably.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #119 on: September 21, 2021, 12:14:18 PM »
“What I have achieved by industry and practice, anyone else with tolerable natural gift and ability can also achieve.” -- Johann Sebastian Bach

I heard Sergei Ignatov speak (juggler with Moscow Circus.)  He basically echoed this but with a caveat.  He said there is a level that everyone can reach by working hard and putting in the time, and then there is another level that is only available to the rare talented few.

That level we could all reach?  8 balls.  (no, never made it, that did encourage me to work on 5 though) 
Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #120 on: September 21, 2021, 12:23:01 PM »
   I mean i posted that clip, i was practicing at 42 bpm 1/8th notes i think.I am able to work around the 45bpm mark now, but still touch and go at that speed.I pretty much spent an hour a day for idk 3 or 4 weeks to achieve that gain.

Ah.  You're using the incremental speedup method.
It's intuitive, most people will work out some variation on that on their own, and it never ever works.

Worse, some pros advocate it and think they use it themselves.  They sort of do, to get a piece to standard, but only after they've already built the skill level to play it at speed.  You haven't. 

Read cc chang on speed walls.  Okay, he's full of hyperbole and a little hard to take sometimes, but on speed walls he's absolutely right. 

Then watch this youtube video.  Yes, it's trombone instead of piano, and it's about ten times more wordy than it needs to be, but that's because he's trying to convince people that are predisposed to reject this approach.

LIKE YOU!

You've been offered some very diverse suggestions and ideas in this thread.  It's interesting to see the different thoughts of the contributors. 

At the same time I get the sense that you already know (not think) that nothing we say is right, and you look for counterarguments to support a preconceived idea.  That is characteristic of people who may be on the spectrum, mildly or even more so.  I know because my family is full of them. 




Tim

Offline ranjit

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #121 on: September 21, 2021, 05:30:28 PM »
I've always said I'm totally against incremental speedup. It just doesn't work! And I see the result of that, people playing for much longer than me who still haven't developed any semblance of real speed. It's also crazy how people just do scales etc. over and over hoping they get faster, where what they need to do is find creative ways to work around the roadblocks preventing them from getting faster, by isolating each hand, and the individual movements in each hand.

Online brogers70

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #122 on: September 21, 2021, 06:04:11 PM »
I completely agree that incrementally ratcheting up the metronome is not the best way to get faster. Here's what I do instead. Lately, I've been trying to increase my scale speed from 120 bpm to 150 bpm (1 click per quarter note, scales in sixteenth notes). I do not find it helpful to work up a few bpm at a time. In fact, the gradual increase in the pulse makes me anxious and tense and makes it harder, even at relatively low speeds. Instead I do the whole scale without metronome using quick finger staccato; then do it in lots of rhythms, 2 rhythms (long-short-long-short) through 6 rhythms (long-short-short-short-short-short) doing every permutation of each rhythm (e.g. long-short-short; short-long-short; short-short-long) which is equivalent to starting the scale on each of the first X notes for the X rhythms). When doing that, I try to play the group of short notes at the target speed, but without the metronome.

Then I set the metronome 20 bpm above my target, so 170, in this case, and play 9 note fragments of the scale at that tempo -  9 note fragments let me start and end on a click so I can be sure my tempo is right. At first this is really hard (remember I'm starting from having played the scales at no more than 120 bpm). But I just keep going for it, until I can get 9 note fragments sounding clean at 170 bpm. Then I slow the metronome down to 150 and try to play the scale. If I get it, I repeat it a few times and then back the metronome down to 135 and play it at that (now easier) tempo 5-6 times through. If I don't get it (at 150), I slow way down, and just run through it at 125 bpm or so and wait until the next day

By jumping around like that, I avoid the gradual increase in tension from ratcheting up the metronome. I also think it helps because playing a very fast scale feels quite different than a moderately fast one. There's a lightness in the fingers and a quickness in getting off the keys that you don't use at slower speeds. I think it's almost impossible to get the right feeling or movements by slowly increasing your speed. Just like if you're a baritone, you can't learn to sing up in the tenor range by singing just a little tiny bit higher each day - you have to learn what it feels like to sing in a connected head voice, which is a different mechanism and feels different than singing in a baritone chest voice, and so you have to get up into that high range all at once, and at first it feels really ugly and awkward. Likewise I think you have to accustom yourself to playing fast in very short bursts and let your bod figure out what it needs to do to make that work, and then just go for it at a much higher tempo than you were playing before.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #123 on: September 22, 2021, 02:40:11 AM »
Multiple incremental tempo increases are just bad. It can trap you to merely get better at doing bad movements and it really can stuff up your sense of what is an appropriate feeling in your hands. If you play something at a slower tempo with masterful control you can bring it up to any fast tempo without effort. Just try to play some slow pieces you know very well fast, even though you never have tried to play it fast you should be able to without any need for incremental type steps, it should just be BANG there you go.
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Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #124 on: September 22, 2021, 03:13:34 AM »


At the same time I get the sense that you already know (not think) that nothing we say is right, and you look for counterarguments to support a preconceived idea.  That is characteristic of people who may be on the spectrum, mildly or even more so.  I know because my family is full of them. 


    Which spectrum, autistic?

    Anyways, that aside, i suppose gradually ratcheting up may not be the best way.Sometimes i just put the metronome 5 or 8 clicks above my maximum, and just force myself to keep pace with the metronome, and ignore any incorrect key strikes, but just focus on maintaining the rythym in time with the metronome at all costs.Then have a break and come back to it at a slower tempo and try to play accurately.I think that helps, but the results may not show for a few days.
  I wander too about the height of the hands.It seems i am more nimble with the hands lifted higher above the keys, with fingers extended downwards more to meet the keys, as opposed to hands lower down, and fingers a bit closer to the horizontal i.e flatter.Does this sound right?

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #125 on: September 22, 2021, 11:59:00 AM »
Quote from: pianodannn


    Anyways, that aside, i suppose gradually ratcheting up may not be the best way. Sometimes i just put the metronome 5 or 8 clicks above my maximum, and just force myself to keep pace with the metronome, and ignore any incorrect key strikes, but just focus on maintaining the rythym in time with the metronome at all costs.

It's not the best way but I'm pretty sure you're going to do it anyway.

On an efficiency basis it's horrible, it's why you need three hours to get through your practice.  Most of those repetitions are material you can play, you're wasting time better spent on other things.

Don't put the metronome up a couple clicks - double the speed instead.  But play only two notes, or whatever you can manage. 

Tim

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #126 on: September 24, 2021, 01:30:54 PM »
It's not the best way but I'm pretty sure you're going to do it anyway.
   

On an efficiency basis it's horrible, it's why you need three hours to get through your practice.  Most of those repetitions are material you can play, you're wasting time better spent on other things.

Don't put the metronome up a couple clicks - double the speed instead.  But play only two notes, or whatever you can manage.
  Well im not really repeating material i can play.Im repeating material i can't yet play without errors.You can't double the speed of the metronome, because it ensures you will just continually make mistakes.Even if i manage 2 notes, what good is that when there are 200 notes to be played  at that speed. As far as i can see, there is no consensus, even among experts, about how you do in fact go about developing such speed.Already there is a wide range of suggestions.I can't really be efficient when nobody appears to agree what is actually efficient.

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #127 on: September 24, 2021, 02:38:58 PM »
  So i tried increasing by 10% above the maximum tempo i can play, and work up from sequences of 2 notes, 3 notes, 4 so on and so forth, but you can still get stuck where it takes dozens of attempts to complete a sequence of say 10 notes with the right rythym and keys.So i can only imagine you would get badly stuck at perhaps 4 notes if you doubled the tempo.As soon as you required a shift of the hand to move up or down an octave, you run in to trouble.And it's a huge investment of time once again to try and work past that.

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #128 on: September 24, 2021, 03:18:40 PM »
 Also, after 90 minutes of attempting at the elevated tempo, building the number of notes in the sequence, i could not immediately play smoothly again at the reduced tempo, it takes a period of reajustment to play back at the lower tempo.So i couldn't play any faster, or in fact even at the same speed after trying to build sequences of notes at an elevated tempo.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #129 on: September 24, 2021, 03:48:44 PM »
Well, kudos for trying it. Even though you were convinced it couldn't work. 

I still recommend you read what chang says about speed walls, and Bernhard about speed, because there's a mechanical problem here that has you stuck. 

Tim

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #130 on: September 24, 2021, 03:53:46 PM »
As far as i can see, there is no consensus, even among experts, about how you do in fact go about developing such speed.Already there is a wide range of suggestions.I can't really be efficient when nobody appears to agree what is actually efficient.
As far as I can see you have not posted a specific bar of music to scrutinize your problems with. If you become more specific then you will get better answers. If you don't want to and just want to generalise everything, you are just going to end up chasing the wind.
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Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #131 on: September 24, 2021, 10:11:54 PM »
Well, kudos for trying it. Even though you were convinced it couldn't work. 

I still recommend you read what chang says about speed walls, and Bernhard about speed, because there's a mechanical problem here that has you stuck.
  Why would i waste hours trying it, if i were convinced it wouldn't work? If you think my attitude is bad, you need to accept that something has caused that, and that it wont change unless  something external causes it to change.Why would i become full of optimism and crush all traces of doubt, as a result of continually showing retarded results.Its not me deciding the outcome.You measure before, you measure after.Either it works or it doesn't.My optimism doesn't change the result.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #132 on: September 24, 2021, 11:01:45 PM »
Have you thought if something doesn't work its because YOU are not doing it correctly?
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Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #133 on: September 24, 2021, 11:15:46 PM »
There are a number of topics discussed in the following video which I thought are pertinent to the present discussion.  Specific points of interest are block learning vs layered learning, and the downfall of perfectionism in the beginning stages of learning a skill. 



Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #134 on: September 24, 2021, 11:37:27 PM »
Have you thought if something doesn't work its because YOU are not doing it correctly?
   Generally speaking, people only practice things they can't do correctly.And if I,M not doing it correctly, WHY am i not doing it correctly as a result of following the instructions of those who apparently do it correctly?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #135 on: September 25, 2021, 03:15:11 AM »
   Generally speaking, people only practice things they can't do correctly.And if I,M not doing it correctly, WHY am i not doing it correctly as a result of following the instructions of those who apparently do it correctly?
If this was a simple answer then there would be no need for teachers. There are often instances where "you don't know you don't know" that is why I suggested you be very specific with your problems, post bars of music and reveal your fingering solutions and even a video of you attempting the specific part and what challenges you think you are facing within the confines of that musical context.
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Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #136 on: September 25, 2021, 04:05:34 AM »
   Generally speaking, people only practice things they can't do correctly.

If one were to follow such knowing, musicians would only practice when they aren't doing the correct things.  A whole lot of elite pianists must be doing a whole lot of wrong things because they seem to practice a great deal.

As I said earlier, enjoy learning piano, enjoy playing piano, enjoy music making... enjoy practising. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #137 on: September 25, 2021, 07:28:07 AM »
If this was a simple answer then there would be no need for teachers. There are often instances where "you don't know you don't know" that is why I suggested you be very specific with your problems, post bars of music and reveal your fingering solutions and even a video of you attempting the specific part and what challenges you think you are facing within the confines of that musical context.
Yes well i did do that earlier.

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #138 on: September 25, 2021, 07:36:42 AM »
If one were to follow such knowing, musicians would only practice when they aren't doing the correct things.  A whole lot of elite pianists must be doing a whole lot of wrong things because they seem to practice a great deal.

Well they do say, you only learn by making mistakes.There no mistakes involved with doing something correctly.The very idea of perfect practice is a paradox.It cant be done and doesn't exist.The only way to progress is attempt things you cant do, which by nature invariably involves doing things incorrectly.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #139 on: September 25, 2021, 08:00:02 AM »
Yes well i did do that earlier.
I didn't see any of your attempts at applying ideas people gave you though, so that's why no one can tell you if what you tried was correct or not. The difficult part about learning the piano is that although it's easy to produce the sound its quite subtle and right and wrong are not always so far a part from one another. I only saw a video of many passages, perhaps focus on one issue and post some sheet music so the discussion can be easily referrenced, discussing via timestamps in video is very clumsy. If you get indepth suggestions for something with exact context you should get better ideas.
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Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #140 on: September 25, 2021, 08:40:01 AM »
 Well how about this exact issue.How do you shift your hand from one position, to another lateral position in an extremely short period of time, and be certain that 4 fingers all end up on specific notes.How do you eliminate any and all posibility of putting any of  your fingers in the wrong position? This should be effortless by now.Absolutely effortless.But its still too difficult once the speed is above a very modest intermediate level.Specifically how do you prevent anything going wrong during these movements? And dont tell me practice this that or the other exercise, drill or whatever, because repeating any form of exercise or drill or process doesn't work.I need a specific set of instructions that my body will follow in order to produce that result. Its no good repeating some movements, and thinking your body or mind will learn the solution, because it doesn't. How do you stop your hands doing different, unpredictable things each time you attempt something.Even when you approach the task the same, something different happens each time.I cant correct things, because what goes wrong changes at each attempt. I cant produce two movements the same twice in a row.So how do you fix that? Maybe i overshoot, maybe i undershoot, maybe you reach the correct note but too early, or too late.All these things can happen by attempting the same motion 2, 3, 10 or 50 times in an identical fashion.I know 4 year old children who dont have those problems.How did they learn to do that? Why cant i understand the answer, but a 4 year old child can, even when we both take the same instructiions and advice?
   
   
   

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #141 on: September 25, 2021, 09:06:18 AM »
Well how about this exact issue.How do you shift your hand from one position, to another lateral position in an extremely short period of time, and be certain that 4 fingers all end up on specific notes.How do you eliminate any and all posibility of putting any of  your fingers in the wrong position? This should be effortless by now.Absolutely effortless.But its still too difficult once the speed is above a very modest intermediate level.Specifically how do you prevent anything going wrong during these movements? And dont tell me practice this that or the other exercise, drill or whatever, because repeating any form of exercise or drill or process doesn't work.I need a specific set of instructions that my body will follow in order to produce that result. Its no good repeating some movements, and thinking your body or mind will learn the solution, because it doesn't. How do you stop your hands doing different, unpredictable things each time you attempt something.Even when you approach the task the same, something different happens each time.I cant correct things, because what goes wrong changes at each attempt. I cant produce two movements the same twice in a row.So how do you fix that? Maybe i overshoot, maybe i undershoot, maybe you reach the correct note but too early, or too late.All these things can happen by attempting the same motion 2, 3, 10 or 50 times in an identical fashion.I know 4 year old children who dont have those problems.How did they learn to do that? Why cant i understand the answer, but a 4 year old child can, even when we both take the same instructiions and advice? 
Reform your question to add musical context, show some bars of music that you want to investigate what you are talking about. It makes the discussion make more sense, if we talk technical talk in generalized form it's only really going to make sense to people who understand the topic in depth already.
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Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #142 on: September 25, 2021, 09:24:08 AM »
O.k, well like the example i posted, how would you learn to increase the tempo of a passage consisting of a series of arpeggios spanning several octaves, which descend, reverse and ascend before shifting to the next scale in the sequence of 4 scales.The entire passage consists of notes of 1 duration.So how do you play that at the required tempo without making a series of errors.I cant really be any more specific.I want to come back in 3 or 4 days time, start the metronome and play that passage 10% faster without errors.Is there some system of practice that yields this result? If there is, its extremely hard to find out about.The correct fingering, memorization is all totally %100 perfected.No problems remembering any aspect or detail of the passage, fingering was established 4 months ago.How do i get faster?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #143 on: September 25, 2021, 09:29:00 AM »
Do you have the sheets of the section you want to consider to post, post that up so then it will be much easier to discuss.
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Offline timothy42b

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #144 on: September 25, 2021, 11:19:23 AM »
   Generally speaking, people only practice things they can't do correctly.And if I,M not doing it correctly, WHY am i not doing it correctly as a result of following the instructions of those who apparently do it correctly?

This is actually a good question with more implications than you may realize.

I don't know the answer to your specific case but I'll offer a couple of observations.

Most of my practice time goes into trombone not piano, so I'll use this as an example.  When I retire in a month I hope to play a little more piano.  Anyway, there are exercises and excerpts we all play, method books all of us would know.  I can remember at least three times where I met the person who wrote a particular method book and either took a lesson or just played with them at some event, and found out I'd been doing the passage wrong.  Not totally wrong of course, the notes are on the page, but there was something subtle about it that I'd totally missed, and when I heard that person play it I had an Aha! moment.  So that's how it goes!  And this is why self learning has its limitations.  One reason out of many. 

Second observation.  Error is the raw material of both creativity and technique.  There are subtleties of technique that you can't really practice until you do them, and notice them, and they kind of have to happen by accident.  A good teacher guides you through some fundamentals, but there's a knack to some things that comes by accident, or sometimes never.  An example well known in the trumpet world is the high range.  It's not something that simply comes with increased strength over years of training; that is a necessary but not sufficient condition. it's also a skill that comes with variability and then you increase the percentage of times you can do it.  If you work too hard at consistency, as you are doing with your incremental speedup practice, you can reduce error to the point where you will never accidentally do it correctly. 

You spent 90 minutes working on fast practice?  My bad, I should have explained.  That will destroy the chances of it working.  20 minutes max - actually if you'd spent 10 minutes a day for 9 days I''d be willing to bet you'd have seen some results. 

I would be remiss if I didn't point out there are some extremely unhealthy methods of producing sufficient error to either improve technique or creativity.  These are not what anyone would recommend, yet they work and are how some of the great jazz players did it.  The most common two are sleep deprivation and drug use. 
Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #145 on: September 25, 2021, 11:27:06 AM »
Well how about this exact issue.How do you shift your hand from one position, to another lateral position in an extremely short period of time, and be certain that 4 fingers all end up on specific notes.How do you eliminate any and all posibility of putting any of  your fingers in the wrong position?

I mentioned earlier a discussion with Sergei Ignatov, who says we can all get to 8 balls with practice, but it takes talent to go further, so I'll use an example from the juggling world.

Here is how beginners are taught, if they're taught, most are not and it takes them much longer.  If the throw from one hand to another is not perfect, the next throw is slightly off, causing the next throw to be even further off, until eventually it is not recoverable.  So we throw one ball from right to left hand.  We catch it and freeze.  That hand will not be in the right position because our first throw was not perfect, but we don't adjust it and throw it back.  We freeze consciously.  Then we relax the body consciously and pay attention to the location.  Then we move that hand to where the catch should have occurred, very very very slowly.  Then we try the throw again.  This takes a very long time in minutes, and saves weeks in skill development. 

(also it might be the opposite of the layered approach recommended in that video quantum posted) 
Tim

Offline dogperson

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #146 on: September 25, 2021, 01:29:46 PM »
O.k, well like the example i posted, how would you learn to increase the tempo of a passage consisting of a series of arpeggios spanning several octaves, which descend, reverse and ascend before shifting to the next scale in the sequence of 4 scales.The entire passage consists of notes of 1 duration.So how do you play that at the required tempo without making a series of errors.I cant really be any more specific.I want to come back in 3 or 4 days time, start the metronome and play that passage 10% faster without errors.Is there some system of practice that yields this result? If there is, its extremely hard to find out about.The correct fingering, memorization is all totally %100 perfected.No problems remembering any aspect or detail of the passage, fingering was established 4 months ago.How do i get faster?


Since you are taking lessons, why don’t you ask your teacher about this specific example?  You are Likely to get much better information when your teacher can see your hands and the score at the same time

Offline quantum

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #147 on: September 25, 2021, 05:11:54 PM »
Well they do say, you only learn by making mistakes.There no mistakes involved with doing something correctly.The very idea of perfect practice is a paradox.It cant be done and doesn't exist.The only way to progress is attempt things you cant do, which by nature invariably involves doing things incorrectly.

You will enjoy the process a lot more if you free your mind from your conception of knowing, and focus more on learning and expanding.  As has been observed earlier, your responses suggest you are very set in your ways and knowing, and that may be a part of what is hampering your progress.

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline pianodannn

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #148 on: September 26, 2021, 09:02:05 AM »
You will enjoy the process a lot more if you free your mind from your conception of knowing, and focus more on learning and expanding.  As has been observed earlier, your responses suggest you are very set in your ways and knowing, and that may be a part of what is hampering your progress.
  I am as it happens focused on learning.Why would i go around asking everybody for ideas, reading about, and watching about the topic, if i was not focussed on learning? Maybe i don't learn, but that doesn't mean im not focused on it.

Offline dogperson

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Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #149 on: September 26, 2021, 12:07:26 PM »
  I am as it happens focused on learning.Why would i go around asking everybody for ideas, reading about, and watching about the topic, if i was not focussed on learning? Maybe i don't learn, but that doesn't mean im not focused on it.


If you are focused on learning, use the best route to get the solution: your teacher, who can see your hands, hear what sound you are producing and read the score at the same time. Forums and reading are a poor second.