\"\"
Piano Forum logo

Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level (Read 7863 times)

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #150 on: September 26, 2021, 12:37:23 PM »
Quote from: pianodannn
  I am as it happens focused on learning.Why would i go around asking everybody for ideas, reading about, and watching about the topic, if i was not focussed on learning?

Yes, exactly, why indeed?
 
You ask everybody for ideas, knowing in advance that they will always be wrong. 

You are focused on learning, but only if it can be done in the context of your preconceived ideas - which are not working for you.  You're going to have to break that paradigm to move forward. 
Tim

Offline quantum

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5983
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #151 on: September 26, 2021, 06:51:39 PM »
And dont tell me practice this that or the other exercise, drill or whatever, because repeating any form of exercise or drill or process doesn't work.I need a specific set of instructions that my body will follow in order to produce that result. Its no good repeating some movements, and thinking your body or mind will learn the solution, because it doesn't.

Seems like contrary statements to me.  You are saying repetitions and drills don't work for you, then ask for a specific set of instructions to which you will need to repeat in order to learn. 


So how do you play that at the required tempo without making a series of errors.

One does not eliminate errors, one uses technique that reduces the chance of errors occurring.  If they do occur, one makes corrections on the fly.  Active adaptation is an important skill.


The correct fingering, memorization is all totally %100 perfected.No problems remembering any aspect or detail of the passage, fingering was established 4 months ago.How do i get faster?

Perhaps that is the problem.  You perfected it to a degree to which you are challenged with unlearning it. 

Learning isn't simply adding on new stuff.  Learning also includes revising: changing approaches, ceasing to do things new learning has illuminated to be less productive.  That means at times one may have to unlearn things in order to progress.

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5983
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #152 on: September 26, 2021, 06:56:33 PM »
You are focused on learning, but only if it can be done in the context of your preconceived ideas - which are not working for you.  You're going to have to break that paradigm to move forward.

Precisely.

Your insistence on sticking to your preconceived ideas is blocking you from taking in new ideas that can more you  forward.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #153 on: September 28, 2021, 03:17:08 AM »
Where are the bars of music you want to discuss? If you are really serious about a question this is the best way to present it. People are not going to refer to time stamps in a video and write the notes out, the sheet music makes discussion 100 times easier and there is no reason why you should avoid posting it up. This also focuses the discussion and you are not going to go wandering about all over the place with concerns since you have something concrete and specific to discuss, not 10000 issues at once.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #154 on: September 28, 2021, 03:32:53 PM »
Precisely.

Your insistence on sticking to your preconceived ideas is blocking you from taking in new ideas that can more you  forward.
   The problem is an inability to see pleasing progress, as a result of taking on the ideas which are presented.If I see an idea has potential, i will grasp it with both hands.People automatically assume, always, that if the result isn't achieved, that the approach was wrong. People don't seem to grasp the idea that what seems a fullproof way forward for one person, may give less than stellar results for another. Perhaps its simply impossible to get rapid results by any means, for some individuals. Don't always assume the idea wasn't applied with enough zeal, or was rejected from the outset.This is always the assumption.The idea that perhaps something else is required, or something else is missing doesn't appear to register.According to one you tuber, i can be playing lightning fast arpeggios within 1 month, and the process consumes 10 minutes per day.Perhaps they required 10 minutes per day.That doesn't mean 10 minutes will do anything for the next person.They might need 10 minutes over 200 days, or 40 minutes per day for 60 days.Theres a lot of assumtions thrown about regarding what people can and can't learn

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #155 on: September 28, 2021, 04:03:57 PM »
Here is an example of the passage i
Was struggling with.As i mentioned, i can play it barely at 75% of prescribed tempo.And it was a long and arduous task indeed to get from 60% to 75%.Im still not entirely confident at 75%.100% is a hell of a way off, is all i can say.

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #156 on: September 28, 2021, 04:06:34 PM »
Heres the actual passage, well part of it

Offline quantum

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5983
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #157 on: September 28, 2021, 05:29:53 PM »
   The problem is an inability to see pleasing progress, as a result of taking on the ideas which are presented.

Progress is not always immediately apparent to the person seeking it, especially true when learning to play an instrument.  In building technique at the piano, meaningful improvements can happen across a large span of time.  The person learning, often does not have the experience or perspective to notice the gradual improvements taking place.  You need to give it more time.  Don't expect to master a technique in a few short steps. 

  If I see an idea has potential, i will grasp it with both hands.

As evidenced numerous times in this thread, your response suggests you prefer to accept ideas that fit your preconceived knowledge.  This is in part what is hampering your progress.

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5983
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #158 on: September 28, 2021, 06:17:34 PM »
Practice the arpeggios as block chords, at tempo.  Notice the descending arpeggio blocks are offset due to the fingering. 

Highlighted score attached. 

As you become more familiar with the chord formation in the hand and the lateral movements of the arm, you can separate the block chord into its individual notes.

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #159 on: September 28, 2021, 06:39:37 PM »
   The problem is an inability to see pleasing progress, as a result of taking on the ideas which are presented.

Well, that's half the problem. 

I see an interesting paradox here.  You've been working 3 hours a day for 10 years not making progress, yet you cheerfully soldier on.  I wouldn't have that much dedication or patience. 

Then when we make suggestions, you try them and discard them in minutes because you didn't make progress.

So.  There are many paths at this point, I'll suggest two.  One is to not be stubborn and stay with the approach that doesn't work, but instead keep trying new methods until one clicks.  Two is accept that nothing will work, so keep working away at whatever method is the most fun, and be happy with the journey. 
Tim

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #160 on: September 29, 2021, 02:04:26 AM »
So in your video you posted on the first page of this thread, you start the RH with Dminor AFDA downward arpeggio but I don't see that anywhere in the sheet you recently posted. So this is a related problem that we have not seen you attempt to play.

Quantum has given a good idea (although the first chord on line three should be connected to the group adjacent to it rather than be segregated and the last green group is correctly not connected to the first lighter colored ascending pattern group after it due to specific fingering of 421 [the final decending G E C [which however would use 321 for the other two before it but make this change at the turn around for finger economy], followed by the ascending 23 E G fingering change, that is not so obvious to those who simply use the same fingers and would assume both groups should be connected]), try to play the passage as held chords first and move quickly between those chords, this will emulate the correct movement of your hand rather than overexaggerating cross over/under movements which I suggested much earlier on that you were doing. Once you can play the page effortlessly with all held chords, breaking them up should maintain that chord type playing and be very easy.

It would also be helpful if you wrote in ALL the fingering that you use too to ensure everything is correct. Once everything is for sure correct go ahead and post a video attempting the advice he has given so we can scrutinize if you are doing it correctly. Yes this is a lot of work on your side but if you want free advice from experienced pianists that is what you are going to have to do.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #161 on: September 29, 2021, 11:39:16 AM »
 Actually i misplaced the last page of the score, so the clip i posted was the last couple of lines i think, but its still similar to the sheet i posted, obviously not identical.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #162 on: October 01, 2021, 06:25:37 AM »
Quantum gave you specific advice so now go ahead and attempt the method he suggested you do. You should demonstrate how you can move from one chord to the next with a quick movement of the whole hand (do not release one chord until you leap to the next, no creeping between the chords). Post a recording of yourself doing those chord movements and then you can get further advice if you then cannot find control and speed from that.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #163 on: October 05, 2021, 01:34:41 AM »
 Sorry, ive been away on a trip for a few days.I have been trying that method.It probably took me 3 or 4 practice sessions to be able to play those highlighted sections using that method.It felt pretty good and secure, but i still cant play them at the full tempo.I moved on to the subsequent lines and practice jumping between chords, which is not too hard, but i still find there is not enough time to shift the hand from one position to the next, once you begin the actual arpeggio, because chord jumping actually affords much more time to find the next position. If my hand does make it to the correct position, i still feel as though its just too hard to move my fingers fast enough to play all the notes in time.

Offline dogperson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1520
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #164 on: October 05, 2021, 04:01:38 AM »
Sorry, ive been away on a trip for a few days.I have been trying that method.It probably took me 3 or 4 practice sessions to be able to play those highlighted sections using that method.It felt pretty good and secure, but i still cant play them at the full tempo.I moved on to the subsequent lines and practice jumping between chords, which is not too hard, but i still find there is not enough time to shift the hand from one position to the next, once you begin the actual arpeggio, because chord jumping actually affords much more time to find the next position. If my hand does make it to the correct position, i still feel as though its just too hard to move my fingers fast enough to play all the notes in time.


I have a hard time understanding why you continue to write about how you are playing and don’t do the two things that will help you progress the quickest:  1. Take these issue to your lessons so your teacher can see your hands, movement and the score at the same time. And 2. posting a video here.

Continuing to write out what is happening is the least efficient, the most likely not helpful way to learn and improve that your can do.

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #165 on: October 05, 2021, 07:07:01 AM »
Well i was just responding to the request of the previous poster, thanks very much.And i did take the issue to my teacher.Ill post a video when i get time.

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #166 on: October 05, 2021, 01:43:04 PM »
Here

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #167 on: October 05, 2021, 01:45:31 PM »
And here

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #168 on: October 05, 2021, 01:59:58 PM »


And here.Lines 41 to 49. Now i did line 41 exactly as suggested by quantum.I could play that line pretty well before anyway.The result is not bad, but im still doing at 75% tempo.The subsequent lines i used the same principle, just jumped between chords without playing individual notes, then moved to playing individual notes.I still cant move beyond 75%, and its somewhat hit and miss at that tempo.In fact mistakes are almost inevitable if i play at that speed.I now have probably at least 50 hours of practice at those specific lines of music.I still find it very challenging at even a modest speed.The full tempo would be futile to even atempt.So i dont know, what gives the superhuman qualities  needed to do this.

Offline ranjit

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #169 on: October 05, 2021, 03:36:07 PM »
I tried out the arpeggios to see if I could actually do it before giving advice lol.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #170 on: October 05, 2021, 03:44:43 PM »


And here.Lines 41 to 49. Now i did line 41 exactly as suggested by quantum.I could play that line pretty well before anyway.The result is not bad, but im still doing at 75% tempo.The subsequent lines i used the same principle, just jumped between chords without playing individual notes, then moved to playing individual notes.I still cant move beyond 75%, and its somewhat hit and miss at that tempo.In fact mistakes are almost inevitable if i play at that speed.I now have probably at least 50 hours of practice at those specific lines of music.I still find it very challenging at even a modest speed.The full tempo would be futile to even atempt.So i dont know, what gives the superhuman qualities  needed to do this.
I don't see you trying the practice method quantum suggested though, to play block chords positions and moving to each group quickly.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #171 on: October 05, 2021, 03:50:26 PM »
Well i did do it.I can post a video of that.I cant see there is any room for error as far as methodology goes.There really is no ambiguity in the description of the method

Offline ranjit

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #172 on: October 05, 2021, 03:52:29 PM »

First of all, just to put this into perspective, you can be proud of yourself for reaching this point, especially primarily with self-study. You are playing better than most adult beginners I've seen, and the effort shows. While it's true that most people on this site can play better, this place has a very high concentration of professional pianists and shouldn't be your benchmark. Starting at 32 with memory problems as you've said, this is quite impressive. Your technique isn't bad, either, as far as I can tell.

I spent five minutes trying out the section. It's mostly arpeggios, and if you boil it down, the limiting factor is, of course, the fact that you can not play arpeggios at that speed. So, just practice with your right hand. You'll be able to add in the left hand when the time comes.

You are playing it fluently at this tempo. My suggestion would be to post a video of your right hand arpeggios at a speed which is at tempo, or at least 90% of tempo. There are two things you need for arpeggio speed, as I see it -- one is the finger independence to move the fingers quickly for each group of 3, and the other is being able to transition fast. Usually, the limiting factor is the latter.

In order to practice that, you will want to practice leaping very quickly, with minimal extraneous movement (i.e. largely horizontal without too much vertical movement), from the 1 to the 3/4 descending, and 3/4 to the 1 ascending. Additionally, you would want to land on the target note and play it fluidly without an accent which is something I'm still working on.

Another thing I'd suggest is to just place your hands on a block chord, but not play it, and then immediately jump to the next block, but again, don't play it, just position your hands. I find this to be very good for proprioception and muscle memory.

This is very similar to quantum's block chord method, and you can do both. I feel like this may be more relevant to you, however, since I sort of see that you aren't jumping off the thumb quick enough. On the other hand, you do seem to have the muscle memory for the hand positions as far as I can tell.

As I said, your progress isn't bad compared to a lot of adult beginners I've seen, so don't beat yourself up too much!

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #173 on: October 05, 2021, 03:54:03 PM »
I tried out the arpeggios to see if I could actually do it before giving advice lol.
Could you do it, like at the full tempo?

Offline ranjit

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #174 on: October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM »
Could you do it, like at the full tempo?
I linked an mp3 under the post, you can check it out. It's not perfect, I only spent a few minutes on it.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #175 on: October 05, 2021, 04:01:11 PM »
Well i did do it.I can post a video of that.I cant see there is any room for error as far as methodology goes.There really is no ambiguity in the description of the method
Well actually there are many ways in which you can do it incorrect which would not help increase your speed.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline davidarditti

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 1
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #176 on: October 21, 2021, 01:41:33 AM »
I've read much of this thread (not all, it's too long), and I think the main problem is that it's all rather vague. We've never been told what the real objective of the OP is. What exactly does he wish to be able to do in the end? Presumably, not play this rubbishy arpeggio exercise in the videos, that is so poor that nobody would ever wish to listen to it. There's no virtue in being able to play a thing like this fast. Even the studies of Czerny are better than this.

My starting point, as a teacher, would be to find out what proper, good music the OP wishes to be able to play, and find ways to help him achieve that, rather than go round in circles with this boring fast apreggio nonsense. You can always 'advance to a higher level' by doing things you like.

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #177 on: October 21, 2021, 11:47:16 AM »


My starting point, as a teacher, would be to find out what proper, good music the OP wishes to be able to play, and find ways to help him achieve that, rather than go round in circles with this boring fast apreggio nonsense. You can always 'advance to a higher level' by doing things you like.

This advice will fall on deaf ears.  Do you understand why?
Tim

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #178 on: October 22, 2021, 11:15:40 PM »
  I don't think davids post is of any real use or value.As far as the "rubbish" arpeggio that nobody would listen to, I mean what are you even referring to? My arpeggio, or the arpeggio in that arrangement, or just arpeggios in general? Why would somebody not want to listen to an arpeggio.They are appear in a large variety of music, of different genres.So why are they rubbish.If its specifically MY arpeggio thats rubbish, why didn't any body else identify it as rubbish. I dont know why David would conclude i don't like that music? Because it's not classical music, and therefore must be rubbish? What is wrong with practicing a basic and neccessary skill used in a wide variety of music? In short, what are you even thinking??

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #179 on: October 22, 2021, 11:25:33 PM »
I also would think, an actual teacher, would understand, that unless the student learns to play arpeggios, very fast, they can cross a whole array of "better" classical music off their list of repertoire to attempt.You cant play a whole array of advanced music if you don't learn speed.Not that there isn't a heap of good slower music to enjoy.Just that you won't be an accomplished musician, if you don't learn to play a variety of things, including arpeggios, very fast and accurately i.e without any mistakes at all.

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #180 on: October 22, 2021, 11:59:08 PM »
It seems about 1.6million people would listen to, and at least 23 thousand would like, an arpeggio played like that....

Offline themeandvariation

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 782
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #181 on: October 23, 2021, 12:46:45 AM »
I would guess that David is referring to the composition (which I also find a bit trite. but no matter) - not that arpeggios are bad, or that you play them badly. 
One of your difficulties I don't think has been addressed - is when both hands are at opposite extremes of the piano. You make little stops at these points. It is splitting your vision in two places at the same time. You need to look at one hand first - just before the spot, and then the other. You should choreograph that visual exercise into your practice.
As far as which hand to look at first, that depends on where your eyes are looking before that particular spot. If you are already looking at the right hand, then look at the RH first.
The other thing to try, is to see if you can feel one of the hands without looking, freeing your eyes for the other.
Also, your lateral movement of the RH is a bit jerky.. The forearm could flow a bit smoother.
4'33"

Offline jimroof

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #182 on: October 23, 2021, 02:00:56 AM »
During the time I studied very seriously I noticed that my perceived path to improvement was different to an outside observer than it was to me.  This is what I believe happens, sequentially, in general.

1. The piano student thinks they are a pretty decent player since they are making valiant attempts at what most would consider difficult repertoire.
2. At a live recital, the same piano student hears one of the pieces they have learned... but the phrasing sounds more musical.  The student's ears are 'awakened' to a new level of experience while the hands... well, the hands lag behind.  During this time the student may feel dejected, as if suddenly their playing has gotten worse.  In fact, it has not.  It is the player's GOALS that have suddenly moved ahead.
3. The piano student works for a few months and really hones in on the phrasing and the hands begin to cooperate with what the ears now demand from them.  Life is good.  The 'valley' has now been left behind and higher ground is under foot.
4. The piano student hears a recording of Chopin's Gm Ballade and the way Ashkenazy plays the coda sets a new high bar and once again, the hands suddenly sound clumsy again as that coda simply does not sound like music any more.
5. Slow practice and further refinements of efficiency now start to find results... and while the Ballade coda is not like Vlad's, it is now enjoyable and very listenable.  Another valley left behind and the player feels confident and competent once again.
6. The ears then wake up to some uneven passage work that never seemed to be noticed much before.  The piano student now STINKS again as nothing coming from the right hand sounds anything like the string of pearls that Zimmerman just did over and over again.
7. More scale work.  Months later, the pianist no longer stinks.  They can play Mozart K576 with confidence and security.

All of this to say, from the first person perspective of the student the path has been UP and DOWN.  But this is because their expectations have grown in great LEAPS as the ear can be taught something in an INSTANT while the hands take months... or even years to achieve what the ears are now listening for.

But, the student's teacher sees STEADY progress because the TEACHER knew all along the things that the student was made aware of along the path. 

You may even feel as if you are getting WORSE from time to time, or that you have stagnated.  You likely have not at all.  It is your subjective viewpoint and not the objective truth.

You can always improve.  You may never get Chopin's Opus 10 #2 up to the intended tempo.  But you can ALWAYS play it a little cleaner and likely a tad swifter over time. 
Chopin Ballades
Chopin Scherzos 2 and 3
Mephisto Waltz 1
Beethoven Piano Concerto 3
Schumann Concerto Am
Ginastera Piano Sonata
L'isle Joyeuse
Feux d'Artifice
Prokofiev Sonata Dm

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #183 on: October 23, 2021, 03:40:57 AM »
That's right  you  can always play a little cleaner and better.But it will take a hell of a long time, irrespective of the way you practice.Yes, it might take several years, just to learn to do properly good arpeggios, if you practice every day.This idea of taking a very difficult passage, and tweaking a few things here and there and wow, 1 month later you can play it like a meistro is fantasy.Its simply not going to happen for most people, virtually all adult beginners in particular. The muscles and reflexes just dont improve that fast.As I said, there is simply no way on earth an adult beginner will get anywhere near a professional standard within 10 years.In fact, the average for a child beginner is 15 to 20 years of daily practice.

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #184 on: October 23, 2021, 03:51:20 AM »
  Just out of interest i tried playing at the full tempo,  just because i find it helps to spend limited time under extreme duress, so that when you step back down in tempo, its become realtively easier by comparison.It occurs to me how absurdly difficult it actually is to play even that, which is somehow quite easy to some.I mean you are shifting your hands in rediculously short intervals of time, and still maintaining perfect positional accuracy.I dont think its anything that a sub 20 year veteran should really even contemplate...

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1238
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #185 on: October 23, 2021, 11:46:40 AM »
That's right  you  can always play a little cleaner and better.But it will take a hell of a long time, irrespective of the way you practice.Yes, it might take several years, just to learn to do properly good arpeggios, if you practice every day.This idea of taking a very difficult passage, and tweaking a few things here and there and wow, 1 month later you can play it like a meistro is fantasy.Its simply not going to happen for most people, virtually all adult beginners in particular. The muscles and reflexes just dont improve that fast.As I said, there is simply no way on earth an adult beginner will get anywhere near a professional standard within 10 years.In fact, the average for a child beginner is 15 to 20 years of daily practice.

Seriously, give it up for a while. In every post you sound frustrated and unhappy. There may be those here who think that if they could just sit down with you at the piano and show you how to practice, you'd improve, but they can't just sit down with you and do that. As things are, you're ruminating on all the reasons why playing the piano is hard, and you don't sound like you're enjoying it. Give it a rest - you've tried hard and it's not working for you. Maybe you'll come back to it later and it will seem more enjoyable; maybe you'll find something else to work hard at where the hard work seems more productive to you. You don't need an excuse to take a break.

Offline jimroof

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #186 on: October 23, 2021, 01:08:12 PM »
  Just out of interest i tried playing at the full tempo,  just because i find it helps to spend limited time under extreme duress, so that when you step back down in tempo, its become realtively easier by comparison.It occurs to me how absurdly difficult it actually is to play even that, which is somehow quite easy to some.I mean you are shifting your hands in rediculously short intervals of time, and still maintaining perfect positional accuracy.I dont think its anything that a sub 20 year veteran should really even contemplate...

When I was working out the Gm Ballade coda I would practice it at full tempo with NO REGARD for what notes I was playing.  I just wanted to get the arm and wrist movements loose and fluid.  Might not even really call it practice since the notes did not matter.  I would just flop my hand in the general direction of the right notes.  Believe it or not, that was perhaps the most valuable thing I did for the coda.  It taught me how it should FEEL to be relaxed and fluid.  The goal was then to replicate that same fluidity with the actual notes.  I don't even recall telling my teacher that I did that. 

So, if you do feel the need to play at tempo, try to not worry about the notes at all and just get the fluid and relaxed feel that you know you will need in the end. 

Sounds strange, but it really helped me to get that coda up to competition level.
Chopin Ballades
Chopin Scherzos 2 and 3
Mephisto Waltz 1
Beethoven Piano Concerto 3
Schumann Concerto Am
Ginastera Piano Sonata
L'isle Joyeuse
Feux d'Artifice
Prokofiev Sonata Dm

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #187 on: October 23, 2021, 01:56:21 PM »
It's a long thread, I have read every post but memory may be fading. 

IIRC, the problem goes something like this.

The OP needs blazing speed to play the pieces that bring joy to his soul.  This isn't the same music that I want to play, that stuff is boring to me, but that's why we're all different.

The OP is more disciplined by far than most students, but despite working 10 years practicing 3 hours a day he hasn't built the virtuoso technique he needs.  (Interesting that his focus is on mastering a passage within a piece, rather than the technique needed to play it.  Once the technique is to standard, the time needed to apply it to other pieces diminishes.  But I digress.) 

The OP has one more requirement:  he must accomplish this his own way, without the assistance of a teacher. 

Well, that works for some people.  But after ten years, one would begin to suspect that a different approach might be worth trying. 

I will make two recommendations.  If after trying both of these no progress is made, I suggest taking up tuba, or even abandoning music to become a professional bowler.  These two recommendations must be done simultaneously, by the way; neither is sufficient on their own.

1.  For the love of God, TAKE A LESSON!
2.  Secondly, trust the teacher and try it their way.  Seriously.  Your stubbornness gives you the discipline to put in the practice time you need, but it makes you resistant to doing things any way but your own.
Tim

Offline anacrusis

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #188 on: October 23, 2021, 04:48:07 PM »
What I don't understand is why you keep playing if you are not enjoying yourself?

Offline ranjit

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #189 on: October 23, 2021, 08:32:09 PM »
The OP is more disciplined by far than most students, but despite working 10 years practicing 3 hours a day he hasn't built the virtuoso technique he needs.
Nothing I have seen in the thread indicates virtuoso technique. It's all fairly intermediate.

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #190 on: October 24, 2021, 11:28:52 AM »
Nothing I have seen in the thread indicates virtuoso technique. It's all fairly intermediate.

Unfortunate shorthand term, I guess.

But even so, more reason for a teacher.  Intermediate technique should be within reach of anyone given that level of effort. 
Tim

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #191 on: October 24, 2021, 12:27:51 PM »
If someone hasn't got it in 10 years with 3 hours a day, well they simply should give up. We suggested many ideas of which ZERO absolutely ZERO has been demonstrated back to us. The OP merely posts videos of whatever they want and throw their hands up wondering why its not working. So just give up, some people you can't help. I even offered free advice over video conferencing and it was not taken up, so is this person really serious about the problem? I would say no.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #192 on: October 24, 2021, 09:56:12 PM »
If someone hasn't got it in 10 years with 3 hours a day, well they simply should give up. We suggested many ideas of which ZERO absolutely ZERO has been demonstrated back to us. The OP merely posts videos of whatever they want and throw their hands up wondering why its not working. So just give up, some people you can't help. I even offered free advice over video conferencing and it was not taken up, so is this person really serious about the problem? I would say no.
  No, im pretty sure i posted videos of what was suggested. I forgot that you P.Md me regarding video conferencing.In any event i don't do video conferences.They make me too uncomfortable. Ill just stick to the teacher.Not that they can really speed things up in any event.

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #193 on: October 24, 2021, 10:18:30 PM »
Well actually there are many ways in which you can do it incorrect which would not help increase your speed.
Really? You tell me a way in which i could incorrectly move my hand 10 inches in a lateral direction? What specifically would a person do wrong in that process.This is now just rubbish talk.Either youve got the reflexes to do it, or you dont.There is no strategy involved in such a simple motion.It's too short an interval of time, and thats that.Practising doesn't reduce the time it takes to complete the motion.

Offline lelle

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1201
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #194 on: October 24, 2021, 10:33:03 PM »
Really? You tell me a way in which i could incorrectly move my hand 10 inches in a lateral direction? What specifically would a person do wrong in that process.

You could do it while clenching various muscles in various parts of your body, which makes it harder to do the movement quickly and accurately. There are many different muscles, muscle groups, or combinations thereof you could be unconsciously tensing. Even subtle amounts of tension will hinder your movements. It's common that people have neck and shoulder tension, which definitely hampers hand movement, but even tensing your legs and feet can affect your hands.

And you could make the exact same movement while being very relaxed, and it'll be a thousand times easier.

Offline dogperson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1520
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #195 on: October 24, 2021, 10:58:43 PM »
  No, im pretty sure i posted videos of what was suggested. I forgot that you P.Md me regarding video conferencing.In any event i don't do video conferences.They make me too uncomfortable. Ill just stick to the teacher.Not that they can really speed things up in any event.


Do, let’s summarize: you practice 3 hrs per day for 10 years, you have a teacher — but you’re not getting anywhere,  then, you turn down a free video lesson from an experienced teacher? ???  Pretty unbelievable and a strong indication you would prefer to proclaim ‘woe is me, I can’t improve’ rather than doing something to change your trajectory.

I hope you rethink piano as a hobby. Your attitude that you are doomed will actually make you a failure—-  you can’t see that the roadblock is you.



Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #196 on: October 24, 2021, 11:17:38 PM »


Do, let’s summarize: you practice 3 hrs per day for 10 years, you have a teacher — but you’re not getting anywhere,  then, you turn down a free video lesson from an experienced teacher? ???  Pretty unbelievable and a strong indication you would prefer to proclaim ‘woe is me, I can’t improve’ rather than doing something to change your trajectory.

I hope you rethink piano as a hobby. Your attitude that you are doomed will actually make you a failure—-  you can’t see that the roadblock is you.
    So how is a video conference with an experienced teacher, going to do something that a 1 on 1 lesson with an even more experienced teacher can't do?
    It always boils down to blaming the attitude of the person struggling.You want a person to have belief and optimism, but you just can't produce any evidence of why they should have that attitude. Its no point me doing things to change my trajectory, when those things don't change my trajectory.All you have to do, is show the student what actually works.But you can't.So why expect a student to change their attitude? You can't present them with evidence.So why would they believe?
   
 
   

Offline pianodannn

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #197 on: October 24, 2021, 11:26:27 PM »
   Don't forget, your dealing with somebody who spent 10000 hours believing that they could.Thats a hell of a long time to tell yourself you can do something, only to find that you actually can't. But of course the problem all along was that i didn't really believe, and secretly preferred to feel sorry for myself, because that really feels better than triumph.

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1238
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #198 on: October 24, 2021, 11:33:15 PM »
   Don't forget, your dealing with somebody who spent 10000 hours believing that they could.Thats a hell of a long time to tell yourself you can do something, only to find that you actually can't. But of course the problem all along was that i didn't really believe, and secretly preferred to feel sorry for myself, because that really feels better than triumph.

You've convinced me. The answer to your original question is "Yes, there is a time to accept that you cannot advance to a higher level, and that time is now." You sound perpetually frustrated. It doesn't particularly matter why you're not getting anywhere - you've tried and it hasn't worked. It's OK to give up and try something different or to just relax. It's not like you're a flake who's been flitting around from one transient enthusiasm to another. You gave this your best shot for a long time. It didn't work. It happens. No shame in dropping piano and moving on.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6517
Re: Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level
«Reply #199 on: October 25, 2021, 01:21:01 AM »
*sigh* I guess we can continue this made up situation.

Really? You tell me a way in which i could incorrectly move my hand 10 inches in a lateral direction? What specifically would a person do wrong in that process.This is now just rubbish talk.Either youve got the reflexes to do it, or you dont.There is no strategy involved in such a simple motion.It's too short an interval of time, and thats that.Practising doesn't reduce the time it takes to complete the motion.
Plenty of ways you can do it wrong, REALLY! You refuse to post a video demonstrating so who know how poorly you did it, obvious you didn't do it at all. If teaching piano could be done in text then the job of an in person teacher would vanish, use your logic.

  No, im pretty sure i posted videos of what was suggested. I forgot that you P.Md me regarding video conferencing.In any event i don't do video conferences.They make me too uncomfortable. Ill just stick to the teacher.Not that they can really speed things up in any event.
I think your story telling is just falling to pieces. You NEVER posted any video demonstrating any idea anyone has asked for. You have excuses for solutions, so how can anyone help you? You don't even want to try things that might change your made up situation. The reason you ignore my free video conference is that your lies would be exposed and I can see how embarrassed you might be lol.i guess you are having more fun seeing your thread continue on, even with this made up situation.

    So how is a video conference with an experienced teacher, going to do something that a 1 on 1 lesson with an even more experienced teacher can't do?
I offered free advice in a better environment and yet you forget about it and ignore it. What kind of game are you playing? You don't even know if it would benefit or not and simply choose the negative. You do realize that doesn't make your attitude look very good? In fact it is absolutely ridiculous.

It always boils down to blaming the attitude of the person struggling.
In this case, yes. Your attitude is to ignore all advice and perpetually exclaim your difficulties. Post some videos demonstrating advice.

You want a person to have belief and optimism, but you just can't produce any evidence of why they should have that attitude.
Made up story, no one asks for optimism they suggested specific advice of which you refused to demonstrate.

Its no point me doing things to change my trajectory, when those things don't change my trajectory.
Meaningless, defeatist attitude.

All you have to do, is show the student what actually works.But you can't.So why expect a student to change their attitude? You can't present them with evidence.So why would they believe?
How can it be done if the student doesn't even know how to demonstrate the advice? Perhaps you are too stupid to apply it yourself, and also too pig headed to take FREE lesson advice when it is served to you on a silver plate. Nothing will help you since you CHOOSE to create and remain this situation you are in, which I believe now is mere story telling.

   Don't forget, your dealing with somebody who spent 10000 hours believing that they could.Thats a hell of a long time to tell yourself you can do something, only to find that you actually can't. But of course the problem all along was that i didn't really believe, and secretly preferred to feel sorry for myself, because that really feels better than triumph.
Well this is all a lie though. You never practice ten years three hours a day and I'd bet all I own on that one, even my organs.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/