Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level

[quantum]

   Well i guess the problem there, is each "thing" might require 30 hours, so 750 hours total to go through and test what outcome these things can bring about.So we soon come back to this realization that no, you can't just spend a week or 2 or 3 on some skill, and see real improvement.That just doesn't seem realistic, but i'm still told i should  see real improvement quickly once i work out what is missing from the picture here.Just that it might take hundreds of hours trying one thing after the other. That doesn't seem to be how a lot of other learners go about making amazing progress in no time flat.Did it take you 1000 hours to learn to play an arpeggio at that speed? If not, i assume you didn't go through a process of deciphering not always clearly defined concepts, implementing those concepts over a period of time, measuring the result, before moving on to the next concept, and the next so on and so forth.We still can't seem to describe a time efficient process here.

You did not answer the question.  Rather you place another level of unrealistic expectation on top of your request for "25 specific things." 


Yet you follow with:

Can you advise exercises that will work, or not? You've seen my hands, so tell me why they can't play an arpeggio.

If we give you exercises will you actually follow the instructions?  Or will you continue to carry on as you please?

[quantum]

   Also you never asked me to post another video, you simply asked that i reduced the creeping(which was minimal anyways) which i subsequently did.

One of many instances:

Please post a video of you doing exactly as we asked, I will happily point out your errors again to show you it is your own fault not the advice.

[quantum]

Ill just work with the instructor who can make absolutely certain i do everything correct.Hes better qualified than anybody on this forum.

Bold claims.  You better be able to present verifiable evidence to back that up. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Do you normally just continually deflect blame to the student, who can't make the progress you want to be true.I think its a bit dangerous forcing down the throat of students who can't progress, even when they are retarded and brain damaged, that they can't accomplish wonders with the right practice.Accuse them of lying about their practice.Do you always accuse your flagging students of lying about their practice habits, so you can force blame onto them?

It is the student to blame, if they cannot follow a set of rules and conditions aimed to improve them then they are reaching a limitation in that area and should look elsewhere for more beneficial improvements. You fail to realize that there are much more worthy ambitions in music than just trying technical pieces you cannot manage. Each individual has a different coordination ability and mental capacity to think in a musical way. You are trying to understand how people learn the piano and this is quite specialist knowledge, so without any actual experience you can only ever really say what YOU experience.

[lostinidlewonder]

Bold claims.  You better be able to present verifiable evidence to back that up.

He's coming on here asking for advice from people who he thinks know muuuuuuuch less than his expert teacher. Twilight zone stuff here lol, piano street seems to attract the crazies hahah.

[pianodannn]

It is the student to blame, if they cannot follow a set of rules and conditions aimed to improve them then they are reaching a limitation in that area and should look elsewhere for more beneficial improvements. You fail to realize that there are much more worthy ambitions in music than just trying technical pieces you cannot manage. Each individual has a different coordination ability and mental capacity to think in a musical way. You are trying to understand how people learn the piano and this is quite specialist knowledge, so without any actual experience you can only ever really say what YOU experience.

   You are contradicting yourself.On one hand you are certain i will improve if i follow your instructions, yet you just said people have inherited limitations that might prevent progress, in which case look elsewhere for improvement i.e go back to easier material. Basically your saying its entirely impossible to train everybody to master that level of skill, at least within a reasonable time frame, yet you appear completely intolerant of the notion that i may be unable to play it,  immediately condemning the method, rather than considering the probability that it simply cant be done within a reasonable time frame due to any number of factors not related to the method.

[lostinidlewonder]

   You are contradicting yourself.On one hand you are certain i will improve if i follow your instructions, yet you just said people have inherited limitations that might prevent progress, in which case look elsewhere for improvement i.e go back to easier material.

You don’t even know what contradicting means, certainly demonstrated by this example where there are no contradictions at all, just your irrational thinking.
The practice methods suggested will emulate closer to the required technique you are lacking. So if you cannot manage it then you merely are trying something that’s too difficult for you. We were not asked to judge if the material you were learning was too difficult which it obviously is since you story tells us you waste hundreds of hours on it with little benefit. You obviously could not pass a simple method request without error which was already shown by the videos you deleted, you too embarrassed to show your mistakes lol.

Basically your saying its entirely impossible to train everybody to master that level of skill, at least within a reasonable time frame, yet you appear completely intolerant of the notion that i may be unable to play it,  immediately condemning the method, rather than considering the probability that it simply cant be done within a reasonable time frame due to any number of factors not related to the method.

Of course it’s impossible to train everyone to be a master that is simple common sense which some people tend to lack mr Dan. You continue to ignore however that it is an utterly shallow endeavour to just study the piano because you want to master it or become an expert at it. It’s quite idiotic.

Your method was clearly wrong and you so arrogantly believed through the whole video talking that you were so perfect lol. So it’s obvious you can’t use the advice correctly, your fault no one else’s. Most people once they do it correct as advised notice immediate results, too bad you are in the helpless group who need a lot of assistance.

[pianodannn]

You did not answer the question.  Rather you place another level of unrealistic expectation on top of your request for "25 specific things." 


Yet you follow with:

If we give you exercises will you actually follow the instructions?  Or will you continue to carry on as you please?

   I didn't actually place unrealistic expectations. Spending 30 hours on an exercise is unrealistic? Really.Hmm, i dont think so.
   Is expecting me to do a basic excercise perfectly, and then have me perform some passage much better within a handfull of hours realistic? Definately not. Its going to take a whole lot more than you picking and picking at the method, and me doing,  adjusting , redoing and readjusting to your satisfaction, before you see any real gain.Are you looking for that triumph moment where you say "see i told you, now look how fast your doing that arpeggio, and it only took a few hours to get there"?
     I think you want to be able to rub it in that finally i prove i can do it, and you have you little "told you so" moment. Its not going to happen too easy, and not within a time frame you think it might.Thats all im saying

[lostinidlewonder]

You can’t even do one method we suggest correct and you want to try more hahahaha. Illogical much??

[pianodannn]

You don’t even know what contradicting means, certainly demonstrated by this example where there are no contradictions at all, just your irrational thinking.
The practice methods suggested will emulate closer to the required technique you are lacking. So if you cannot manage it then you merely are trying something that’s too difficult for you. We were not asked to judge if the material you were learning was too difficult which it obviously is since you story tells us you waste hundreds of hours on it with little benefit. You obviously could not pass a simple method request without error which was already shown by the videos you deleted, you too embarrassed to show your mistakes lol.

Of course it’s impossible to train everyone to be a master that has already been established. You continue to ignore however that it is an utterly shallow endeavour to just study the piano because you want to master or or become an expert at it. It’s quite idiotic.

Your method was clearly wrong and you so arrogantly believed through the whole video talking that you were so perfect lol. So it’s obvious you can’t use the advice correctly, your fault no one else’s. Most people once they do it correct as advised notice immediate results, too bad you are in the helpless group who need a lot of assistance.

  Yes, o.k.My fault that you told me to shift my hand between chord positions, and my interperetation of that wasn't exactly inline with yours.I get it.
    Why are you so eager to prove i do the method correct, given that ultimately ill just be going back to slower material anyway.Its not like your going to have your chance to prove following your method made me improve soo much.Ill just ending going back too easier stuff.Its not going to prove to me the right method is what has eluded me all this time.

[pianodannn]

You can’t even do one method we suggest correct and you want to try more hahahaha. Illogical much??

 Its done correctly, i thought we established that.And when its done to your satisfaction, and nothing improves, can we consider that what you thought was "correct" may not actually be correct?

[lostinidlewonder]

  Yes, o.k.My fault that you told me to shift my hand between chord positions, and my interperetation of that wasn't exactly inline with yours.I get it.

You don’t get it, what are you on about “shift my hands between chord positions” that means nothing.

    Why are you so eager to prove i do the method correct, given that ultimately ill just be going back to slower material anyway.Its not like your going to have your chance to prove following your method made me improve soo much.Ill just ending going back too easier stuff.Its not going to prove to me the right method is what has eluded me all this time.

I guess you’ll never know what optimising and prioritising appropriate materials for technical pianistic skills and mindful musical thinking which benefits the learning process is all about. But never fear just ask your top class teacher who is better than all of us lol.

[lostinidlewonder]

Its done correctly, i thought we established that.And when its done to your satisfaction, and nothing improves, can we consider that what you thought was "correct" may not actually be correct?

Lol it ended with you deleted videos where you were running off your mouth how perfect you were but you were making all these errors. You deleted these videos and showed nothing else. So from what we have seen you are still wrong. Go ahead and post more, I’m not going to correct you though, it’s been established you require someone to assist you during the process, go ask your top class teacher who is better than everyone else here right?

[pianodannn]

  We're beating about the bush here.Doing the jumps wont have me doing faster arpeggios, regardless of how i follow your instruction.I dont even care if i did them incorrectly, because its irrelevant to the fact the exercise wont achieve what you think/hope/ suspect regardless of how i do it. Why would you assume jumping chords can train me to shift any faster between chord positions? Theres the problem.You just assume. Maybe playing monopoly or snakes and ladders will train me to get the thumb out of the way quicker.You cant just practice some movement, and you get better at that movement.Doesn't work that way.

[pianodannn]

Lol it ended with you deleted videos where you were running off your mouth how perfect you were but you were making all these errors. You deleted these videos and showed nothing else. So from what we have seen you are still wrong. Go ahead and post more, I’m not going to correct you though, it’s been established you require someone to assist you during the process, go ask your top class teacher who is better than everyone else here right?

     If you have listened to the videos, i never indicated i was perfect, but rather that i was garbage after listening to your advice, and to show none of you had any idea what was wrong.Your advice does nothing to rectify any of it.You didn't address any of the things that were wrong.You suggested jumps, quantum suggested a specific fingering.The videos showed clearly that "jumping chords" was a useless way to address the shortcomings, which are clearly physical and neurological in nature.None of your useless exercises do anything.Thats just a simple fact.
   What qualification do you think you have anyway? A masters degree? What are you even giving me advice for.You already said you cant diagnose problems over the forum, so get a teacher.Surprise surprise i already had perfectly good teachers in the past, and surprise surprise it didn't result in a good and effective learning process.
     The whole thread from the very start was about advancing to a higher level.You beat around the bush for 8 pages spinning B.S about practice method, to end up simply admitting that "some students are just hopeless". So why are you demanding i do your methods correctly, when you already know im hopeless, therefore the method is useless??? Why insist i implement the method correctly, when you know hopeless students dont learn from any one method or another.Why are you beating about the bush.Your an idiot.Dont send me a P.M telling me you can help, when you know damn well half the time the problems are inherited and nothing can be done about it. You've no idea.Your methods are crap.Jam them up your arse.theyre not work a pinch of dog dun.

[pianodannn]

 This forum is crap.Waste of time even coming on here.Waste of time even learning an instrument.Most stupid *** idea i ever had even attempting it.Should burn it and just eat hot dogs and watch television instead.Ill be just as productive.

[lostinidlewonder]

     If you have listened to the videos, i never indicated i was perfect, but rather that i was garbage after listening to your advice, and to show none of you had any idea what was wrong.Your advice does nothing to rectify any of it.

Well you have resorted to outright lying again. It is obvious throughout those videos you were saying you were doing everything exactly as described. I then pointed out your errors which shut you up for a while. Then you came back with your new chapter of madness. End of story lol.

You didn't address any of the things that were wrong.

Selective reading imagination world dannn, simply go back to past comments it is all there. Stop your lying.

You suggested jumps, quantum suggested a specific fingering.The videos showed clearly that "jumping chords" was a useless way to address the shortcomings, which are clearly physical and neurological in nature.None of your useless exercises do anything.Thats just a simple fact.

Because you did them wrong lol. You think doing it wrong will help? Looool!!!

What qualification do you think you have anyway? A masters degree? What are you even giving me advice for.You already said you cant diagnose problems over the forum, so get a teacher.Surprise surprise i already had perfectly good teachers in the past, and surprise surprise it didn't result in a good and effective learning process.

I know a great deal more than you, that’s not very difficult though lol!

The whole thread from the very start was about advancing to a higher level.You beat around the bush for 8 pages spinning B.S about practice method, to end up simply admitting that "some students are just hopeless". So why are you demanding i do your methods correctly, when you already know im hopeless, therefore the method is useless??? Why insist i implement the method correctly, when you know hopeless students dont learn from any one method or another.Why are you beating about the bush.Your an idiot.Dont send me a P.M telling me you can help, when you know damn well half the time the problems are inherited and nothing can be done about it. You've no idea.Your methods are crap.Jam them up your arse.theyre not work a pinch of dog dun.

Suggested correctives you chose to run away with tail between legs and not show us any more of your attempts. I guess your first videos with your attitude was too embarrassing to keep up so you deleted them lol.

[lostinidlewonder]

This forum is crap.Waste of time even coming on here.Waste of time even learning an instrument.Most stupid *** idea i ever had even attempting it.Should burn it and just eat hot dogs and watch television instead.Ill be just as productive.

Oh yes it’s everyone else’s fault but your own. Attitude adjustment is required, that chip on your shoulder is pretty deep lol. Restore your deleted videos so everyone can see your attitude and wrong attempts all while hearing you constantly saying you are doing it all perfect and exactly as described

[quantum]

   I didn't actually place unrealistic expectations. Spending 30 hours on an exercise is unrealistic? Really.Hmm, i dont think so.
   Is expecting me to do a basic excercise perfectly, and then have me perform some passage much better within a handfull of hours realistic? Definately not. Its going to take a whole lot more than you picking and picking at the method, and me doing,  adjusting , redoing and readjusting to your satisfaction, before you see any real gain.Are you looking for that triumph moment where you say "see i told you, now look how fast your doing that arpeggio, and it only took a few hours to get there"?
     I think you want to be able to rub it in that finally i prove i can do it, and you have you little "told you so" moment. Its not going to happen too easy, and not within a time frame you think it might.Thats all im saying

You did not answer the question again.  In the quote you also omitted the part where I asked the question again. 

If people here give you exercises to assist solving technique problems, will you follow the instructions?  Or will you continue to do as you please?

Its going to take a whole lot more than you picking and picking at the method, and me doing,  adjusting , redoing and readjusting to your satisfaction, before you see any real gain.

You are just adding to that difficulty.  If we can't even get past step one of following instructions, how do you expect to move forward and improve your technique?

I think you want to be able to rub it in that finally i prove i can do it, and you have you little "told you so" moment. Its not going to happen too easy, and not within a time frame you think it might.Thats all im saying

So now you display resistance to achieving the very thing you came here to ask assistance for. 

[quantum]

If you have listened to the videos, i never indicated i was perfect, but rather that i was garbage after listening to your advice, and to show none of you had any idea what was wrong.

It's not just in the deleted videos.

Previously stated:

The correct fingering, memorization is all totally %100 perfected.No problems remembering any aspect or detail of the passage, fingering was established 4 months ago.How do i get faster?

The very idea of perfect practice is a paradox.It cant be done and doesn't exist.

[lostinidlewonder]

This was the most amusing remark which dannn seems to have gained amnesia of.

LOST SAID:
Quote from: lostinidlewonder on October 05, 2021, 11:44:43 PM
I don't see you trying the practice method quantum suggested though, to play block chords positions and moving to each group quickly.

PIANODANNN response
Quote from: pianodannn on October 05, 2021, 11:50:26 PM
Well i did do it.I can post a video of that.I cant see there is any room for error as far as methodology goes.There really is no ambiguity in the description of the method

Then the videos posted showed wrong attempts all accompanied by dannn constantly saying he’s following the instructions exactly as described.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I've not been very active here of late, but I'm going to make an observation and a suggestion.

Quantum gave good advice about block chords. I suspect your problem is to do with the hand movement between positions. I assume you can attain reasonable velocity in broken chords: by this I mean playing G, B, D in the rh with the fingers independent and in rapid succession.

If not, this will need to be addressed before moving to the next stage. I agree that it is important to be clear about what fingering is being used, and to use it consistently.

In the G maj example, let's suppose that we want to expand the rapid breaking of the triad to a wider range of notes. I would suggest that a very useful exercise would be to play the G, B, D chord with the rh, notes in unison. Then release the G and, while *still holding down* the B and D, practice swinging the thumb up to the next G, an octave above where it started. You need to pass the thumb under the main section of the hand. Some arm rotation and movement will facilitate this. This should prove good preparation for the movements you will need to play fast, fluent arpeggios, and when it comes to doing this with facility, you will find that you need appreciably less arm rotation than in this preparatory exercise. Don't do this obsessively, five minutes at a time should be enough. Stop if you find discomfort, though you shouldn't.

"All" (sic) that is needed to master fluid arpeggiation is the correct fingering and fluid movement between hand positions, of which you only need one change per octave. It is one of those things which can seem very difficult until mastered, yet once mastered it becomes easy.

[pianodannn]

It's not just in the deleted videos.

Previously stated:

  What do you mean not "just" in the deleted videos.It wasn't in the deleted videos at all.As far as the quote you pasted saying i had it MEMORIZED 100%, which i do/did.None of the errors are due to me forgetting what comes next.I also said the fingering was correct.Well there is not just one acceptable fingering for a passage, but the one i had settled on was the same as used by the original author of that arrangement.And they managed to play to an exemplary standard with that fingering.So yes, i was essintially correct about the particular aspects i said i was correct about.There may have been other errors of technique, but i never said i could perform the technique correctly.In fact i particulary EMPHASIZED that it was hopeless to pull off any of it with the required speed or accuracy.Out of that you managed to  form the opinion that i was big noting myself for not being able to do it.You and Listinthewander BOTH misinterpereted the sentiment of the videos.

[pianodannn]

  Anyway, im over the blame game.Whatever, i didn't follow the instructions o.k.There you have it.

[lostinidlewonder]

  What do you mean not "just" in the deleted videos.It wasn't in the deleted videos at all......You and Listinthewander BOTH misinterpereted the sentiment of the videos.

How old are you? I thought trying to make fun of someone's name finished in primary school? Here's an idea stop your story telling and restore your deleted videos, oh dear if you do that we will see your hissy fit saying constantly you are perfect while doing errors. Your deleted videos are ample evidence that you are insincere in your wish to improve. You just totally ignored rondes helpful contribution too, good job!

  Anyway, im over the blame game.Whatever, i didn't follow the instructions o.k.There you have it.

An utterly arrogant sarcastic attitude where one believes they are so perfect and everyone else is wrong. No one can help you on that one mate.

[pianodannn]

  I didnt make fun of your name, that was a typing error(smatphone keyboard)

[pianodannn]

How old are you? I thought trying to make fun of someone's name finished in primary school? Here's an idea stop your story telling and restore your deleted videos, oh dear if you do that we will see your hissy fit saying constantly you are perfect while doing errors. Your deleted videos are ample evidence that you are insincere in your wish to improve. You just totally ignored rondes helpful contribution too, good job!
An utterly arrogant sarcastic attitude where one believes they are so perfect and everyone else is wrong. No one can help you on that one mate.

   I also read and considered rondes contribution.Dont assume i ignored it because i didn't respond directly to it. Again with the assumptions, about this that and the other.Hardly surprising i have a fit. Not surprising at all really.

[pianodannn]

   Lostinlittle wander has pages and pages of hissy fit on record.Don't have to restore anything to view those fits.Don't worry about my videos.

[lostinidlewonder]

I've pretty much kept on topic and brought attention to the crux of the problem you have (cannot follow instructions exactly and has poor attitude blaming advice rather than own approach to said advice), if you see that as a hissy fit so be it lolol. we don't need your video to see your attitude where you think you can't do something wrong, plenty of examples to choose from.

[lostinidlewonder]

  I didnt make fun of your name, that was a typing error(smatphone keyboard)

Lol plenty of examples of you screwing up my name on purpose, do you want me to quote them all?

[lostinidlewonder]

   I also read and considered rondes contribution.Dont assume i ignored it because i didn't respond directly to it. Again with the assumptions, about this that and the other.Hardly surprising i have a fit. Not surprising at all really.

Yawn, maybe you can't respond to it in an intelligent way without the tears.

[quantum]

  What do you mean not "just" in the deleted videos.It wasn't in the deleted videos at all.As far as the quote you pasted saying i had it MEMORIZED 100%, which i do/did.None of the errors are due to me forgetting what comes next.I also said the fingering was correct.Well there is not just one acceptable fingering for a passage, but the one i had settled on was the same as used by the original author of that arrangement.And they managed to play to an exemplary standard with that fingering.So yes, i was essintially correct about the particular aspects i said i was correct about.There may have been other errors of technique, but i never said i could perform the technique correctly.In fact i particulary EMPHASIZED that it was hopeless to pull off any of it with the required speed or accuracy.Out of that you managed to  form the opinion that i was big noting myself for not being able to do it.You and Listinthewander BOTH misinterpereted the sentiment of the videos.

How convenient of you to make claims about what was said in videos that are at present time deleted.  Re upload the videos so your claims can be vetted by third parties.

As far as the quote you pasted saying i had it MEMORIZED 100%, which i do/did.

You memorized it so well that you ingrained faulty technique into that memorized material.  People here have been trying to get that message across, but you stubbornly insist on exclusively doing things your own way, continuing to practice faulty technique further ingraining it into your memory. If you want your technique to move forward you have to undo things you memorized in the past. 

[quantum]

You continue to avoid answering the question, if people here give you exercises or techniques on how to solve your technical dilemma, will you follow the instructions?  Or will you continue to do as you please?


Ronde has given good advice.  Post a video of yourself doing the exercise so you can receive feedback.

[pianodannn]

You continue to avoid answering the question, if people here give you exercises or techniques on how to solve your technical dilemma, will you follow the instructions?  Or will you continue to do as you please?


Ronde has given good advice.  Post a video of yourself doing the exercise so you can receive feedback.

  Well o.k.
     When i have time i will.

[dogperson]

  Well o.k.
     When i have time i will.

You practice three hours per day and you can’t take a few minutes of your practice time to record a video of you practicing an exercise?  Makes no sense

[pianodannn]

   Yeah well im not home for the next 2 days, and by the time i try the idea, and make and upload a video, its not a few minutes

[pianodannn]

I've not been very active here of late, but I'm going to make an observation and a suggestion.

Quantum gave good advice about block chords. I suspect your problem is to do with the hand movement between positions. I assume you can attain reasonable velocity in broken chords: by this I mean playing G, B, D in the rh with the fingers independent and in rapid succession.

If not, this will need to be addressed before moving to the next stage. I agree that it is important to be clear about what fingering is being used, and to use it consistently.

In the G maj example, let's suppose that we want to expand the rapid breaking of the triad to a wider range of notes. I would suggest that a very useful exercise would be to play the G, B, D chord with the rh, notes in unison. Then release the G and, while *still holding down* the B and D, practice swinging the thumb up to the next G, an octave above where it started. You need to pass the thumb under the main section of the hand. Some arm rotation and movement will facilitate this. This should prove good preparation for the movements you will need to play fast, fluent arpeggios, and when it comes to doing this with facility, you will find that you need appreciably less arm rotation than in this preparatory exercise. Don't do this obsessively, five minutes at a time should be enough. Stop if you find discomfort, though you shouldn't.

"All" (sic) that is needed to master fluid arpeggiation is the correct fingering and fluid movement between hand positions, of which you only need one change per octave. It is one of those things which can seem very difficult until mastered, yet once mastered it becomes easy.

   Also can you describe the equivalent exercise for a descending pattern e.g would you hold the triad, then release B and D and bring them down an octave whilst maintaining the G with the thumb?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Yes, absolutely.

I made a short video to (hopefully) get across what I'm suggesting. Sorry, the piano is needing a bit of tuning and I've not got round to it! I've put the stages you can aim for while developing technique:

1. the slow rotation exercise
2. the arpeggio played moderato, but with clear grouping of each octave segment, with no pedal so that it will be more evident if something isn't correct. It can be seen clearly that the exaggerated movements of the training exercise have now minimised into something far more fluid

(these in both ascending and descending form)

3. the full arpeggio played moderato, again with clear grouping of each segment
4. the full arpeggio a tempo and pedalled, as it is likely to be in the intended final result

Don't worry about playing fast at this stage, evenness is more important.

[roncesvalles]

I clicked on this topic because it's an issue I sympathize with.  I'm not currently able to take on piano lessons, and I sometimes worry that my playing has plateaued--or at the very least shifted from making significant strides to smaller ones verging on intangible.

That said, I don't think the sentiment should be:  "there's something wrong with me!" (or the related but less strong sentiment "I've reached my natural limit."  Doing so might assume that you know the right way of going about things, that you execute them all in a proper way, etc. and can clearly determine based on your knowledge that there is no way forward.   Instead what I try to do is to be humble.  Assume that there are aspects of my playing and practicing that escape my notice.  And realize that stumbling blocks with playing can sometimes be caused by major issues (tension) or lack of foundational skill-building.

These stumbling blocks often need to be addressed, and the result isn't always a quick fix.  Often you have to regress in order to progress.  I did this myself.  I was at a level where I was starting very difficult works, but my hands were riddled with tension, which was making my playing rough.   So I basically started from scratch--no more difficult works, no more scales at 144 bpm or above, no more trying arpeggios at max speed.  It was hard to do, because I had been learning things that had been really aspirational to me.  But instead I focused on being as tension free as possible and also on always aiming to achieve the exact sound I wanted.  My playing was so slow I couldn't play the opening movement of Mozart's K545 anymore at speed.  But when I played the limited things I did were smoother.  My thumbs didn't cause little accents on arpeggios.  The rhythmic evenness of my scales improved.  I was more in charge of the tone I was producing.  It took a lot of humbleness to admit that I was doing something wrong, and that I had to simplify everything and prioritize things I had never previously considered.  Only just now I'm learning my first allegro piece (a page long) in a year and a half (and I'm doing it very cautiously and mindfully, starting at half speed and ensuring that my hands and wrists stay loose).

Due to the issues you seem to have, there probably isn't going to a be a simple "try this easy trick to get fast arpeggios" solution.  You might have things to undo in order to get there. And sometimes the solution is going back down to basics in order to ensure your entire playing mechanism is approaching things in a relaxed and efficient way (if it's not, your entire playing mechanism, hands, wrists, forearms, shoulders, etc. can go through a chain reaction of overcompensations that will in fact give you a speed limit and likely cause you to lose control of your sound at higher tempi).   If you can play things fast at a stationary hand position, you could be able to do so with changes of hand placement, but it requires the right kind of practice (and not rushing or pressing to do too much too soon).

So instead of bemoaning the impossibility of advancing, I would suggest you approach your own playing critically--not that you're saying "I can't do this," but rather that there are likely things that may pass unnoticed by you that can hinder your playing.  Instead of pressing or doggedly repeating a problematic section by clicking up the metronome each day, I'd suggest you play it slow, ensuring you're relaxed, and at a tempo where you can control the sound at any dynamic or articulation.  Get comfortable with arpeggios in general, really listen to the sound you're producing with them to locate problem spots or inconsistencies, be sensitive to the way your hand feels and what doesn't feel easy.  Because fast playing if it works is governed by suppleness and not strain.   With what you're working on, you're doing something new--and it's a good idea to approach things that are new with attention and care to your technique and relaxation, which might make the learning curve initially steeper but serve you better long term, as you'll be able to more easily and with less strain approach analogous figurations.

[lelle]

Roncesvalles post

I wholeheartedly agree. I have gone through music in university (masters degree) but I should do this myself to correct some of the bad habits I picked up along the way.

[roncesvalles]

Another thing is that arpeggios require very detailed movements.  Something I used to do was block out my hand, so every time my hand shifted positions all of my fingers were in position as if I was ready to play a chord.  This led to a lot of tension (and wrong notes) especially at higher tempi.  You really want the hand to be supple and to be able to sound each note in the way you desire, which you can't do with ease if you're doing something like blocking out your hand, which makes individual articulation of notes more difficult and any inaccuracy in hand extension leading to wrong notes.  I would really recommend a teacher to guide you through the required motions and principles of arpeggio playing, starting with how to do it in a single octave (with relaxation and efficient motions) to situations where you'll be shifting hand position.  Yes, there are a lot of ways of approaching this, but you should also know why you're doing a specific exercise, what it's for and what you should be conscious of when doing.  In reality there are very few exercises that are designed just "to make your playing faster"--if that's what you think when you're doing them, you're probably not doing them correctly.  Exercises address specific issues in playing, intending to make your mechanism more efficient and relaxed.  They can be simple, like exercises solely aimed at the connection of notes, the pressing or stroking of one note after another, or more complex, like exercises to relax after connections before sounding the next note, to exercises to get controlled coordination (for things like jumps, lateral motion over the keys, etc.) that are the real goals of the exercise, not merely a higher speed.   So it's good to be very aware of what exactly the exercise is doing, what foundational skill it is trying to teach you, and how that relates to the things you play or practice.  Speed is something like a generic term for a whole host of technical work.  So if you can't get a teacher and do something like learn from YouTube videos, understand the specific goal of the exercise.  Often they're advertised to be designed for speed, but what they're really doing is giving you instruction on how to approach one specific aspect of playing that's foundational, which should help you later attain greater fluidity, given that you are mindful of doing the exercises for what they're intended to do, not just to do them fast.

[j_tour]

Something I used to do was block out my hand, so every time my hand shifted positions all of my fingers were in position as if I was ready to play a chord.  This led to a lot of tension (and wrong notes) especially at higher tempi.  You really want the hand to be supple and to be able to sound each note in the way you desire, which you can't do with ease if you're doing something like blocking out your hand, which makes individual articulation of notes more difficult and any inaccuracy in hand extension leading to wrong notes.

That's a brilliant comment, as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, that's something I've never considered:  as a long-time "blocker," it's served me well, but that may be one of the roots of my discomfort at playing very close arpeggios at high speed.

For what I do, they're just flourishes or ways of linking various melodic lines, but I think you make an excellent case for examining the limitations of blocking chords. 

It'll get your hand and arm position right, for sure, but not 100% of the sound one desires.

[roncesvalles]

Jtour, I mostly got away with it, but there are cases where it's a detriment to fluidity and articulation (because all of your tendons and muscles are activated, so it's essentially turning your playing into double note playing).  For things like Chopin's Op. 10 no. 1 or Op. 25 no. 12 it's a real hindrance, but more generally also if your arpeggios have a big span because it adds tension and in some cases limits your fingers' mobility, so you might not be able to have the kind of attack you want or even in some extreme cases be limited to tense attacks like if your finger has to essentially move diagonally to depress a key (which must be done in some rare cases like Henselt depending on hand size, but if you have to quickly come back down or up with the arpeggio can lead to overcompensation). 

I used to suffer from a bad flying pinky and the first thing I did was watch Mortensen's video on it.  He really stressed the importance of having efficient motions centered over the key to minimize tension.   I guess if you're really experienced and are someone who does blocking, maybe the issue wouldn't be so harmful, because the keyboard's geography would be so innate, but if you weren't experienced, you might end up doing a bit of micro-lateral finger/wrist movement  that necessarily adds tension to the rest of the hand.   I'm mostly self-taught, but I did have a Taubman teacher for a while, and my ideal of playing arpeggios is a way of flowing into the key and rotating so my finger's on top of the key when I need it to be there so the hand isn't always extended and the fingers are relatively loose when not actively engaged.  But that's an ideal I'm still working at--I'm a long ways off from the kind of repertoire that would really put ideals to the test.

[ranjit]

Actually, that's something I've never considered:  as a long-time "blocker," it's served me well, but that may be one of the roots of my discomfort at playing very close arpeggios at high speed.

Why don't you try out Chopin op 10 no 1? It really helped me realize a few things when it comes to wrist mobility and not blocking chords, at least. You really can't get away with blocking the chords even if you can span the intervals, so it forces you to think about wrist mobility a lot more.

[lostinidlewonder]

Another thing is that arpeggios require very detailed movements.  Something I used to do was block out my hand, so every time my hand shifted positions all of my fingers were in position as if I was ready to play a chord.  This led to a lot of tension (and wrong notes) especially at higher tempi.

I think it is important not to forget that blocking arpeggios is rather an important skill to understand and utilise. It is not going to completely solve all issues but it certainly assists many parts required to improve them, notably general position/fingering control, note memorisation, feeling of progression between positional movements. Even basic arpeggios require efficiency of the movement which extends beyond mere blocking of positions, although ideas/improvements which extenuates/develop from the blocking does set one up for appropriate and specific improvement. Depending on the type of arpeggio you are working on blocking will have limited use, certainly for much larger arpeggios or more complicated patterns, its use needs to be segmented between other arpeggio control techniques, moving the hand, raising finger, playing at different angle to the finger tips, finger/wrist synergy etc. A general practice tool is blocking out positions though and it should never be disregarded, certainly not for a student developing their practice methodology.

[quantum]

I think it is important not to forget that blocking arpeggios is rather an important skill to understand and utilise. It is not going to completely solve all issues but it certainly assists many parts required to improve them, notably general position/fingering control, note memorisation, feeling of progression between positional movements. Even basic arpeggios require efficiency of the movement which extends beyond mere blocking of positions, although ideas/improvements which extenuates/develop from the blocking does set one up for appropriate and specific improvement. Depending on the type of arpeggio you are working on blocking will have limited use, certainly for much larger arpeggios or more complicated patterns, its use needs to be segmented between other arpeggio control techniques, moving the hand, raising finger, playing at different angle to the finger tips, finger/wrist synergy etc. A general practice tool is blocking out positions though and it should never be disregarded, certainly not for a student developing their practice methodology.

Precisely.

One must realize that exercises such as blocking are targeted at solving specific problems in the playing mechanism, both physical and cognitive.  They are not the complete solution to playing arpeggios, for instance, but form part of the understanding which goes into developing such technique. 

For someone already fluent in arpeggios, that person may not need to practice blocking as an isolated exercise, but the concept of blocking still remains a cognitive construct when designing fingering, calculating efficient movement in the playing mechanism, sight reading, and theoretical understanding of harmony and counterpoint.  One may not play blocking, but one still employs blocking when thinking about how to play music. 

Foundational practices are essential at the first stages of learning and building a particular technique.  As one becomes more fluent at playing the technique, those foundational practices shift into the background as one learns to do additional tasks such as, how to phrase or shape an arpeggio, but those foundational practices do not disappear.  They are like the framework of a house, they need to be there to keep the structure standing, and indeed remain as more artistic architectural elements are created for the structure. 

[pianodannn]

   Well heres a video of me using a couple of the methods.So i dont know, tell me what im supposed to be doing different.At the end i play the whole series of arpegs in 5 or 6 different chords which is the last paragraph of that song, so you can kind of see where im at.That is at 46 on the metronome, the prescribed is 60.I can just do it at 46, but it's really pushing the limits, and touch and go to be able to play it without errors.

[anacrusis]

   Well heres a video of me using a couple of the methods.So i dont know, tell me what im supposed to be doing different.At the end i play the whole series of arpegs in 5 or 6 different chords which is the last paragraph of that song, so you can kind of see where im at.That is at 46 on the metronome, the prescribed is 60.I can just do it at 46, but it's really pushing the limits, and touch and go to be able to play it without errors.

I know about these methods and I can see some things where you are going wrong. You look a bit stiff, for example. Unfortunately it's difficult to explain how to correct it in writing. It's really something that'd be the easiest to correct in person with a knowledgeable teacher who can show you, physically, through guiding your body using touch, the sensations you need to have in your body. And you'd still need to have a lot of patience as it can take a couple of months, if not more, to rewire old habits into more efficient ones even with expert guidance in person.

Some of the other members might take a stab at it but don't expect that they'll be able to write words that automatically and efficiently will communicate everything you need to know, and make you able to instantly do it perfectly. Because that is very difficult if not impossible, because words can only very imperfectly convey the needed knowledge.

It also looks like you rush and do everything a bit impatiently, causing mistakes, which doesn't help.

Just doing the exercises as you understand the descriptions of them fails because there is more than one way to do the movements in the exercises, even if it superficially looks the same. It's not just about the movements themselves.

[klavieronin]

It also looks like you rush and do everything a bit impatiently, causing mistakes, which doesn't help.

That was my impression too. It didn't strike me as very careful or deliberate practice. My advice would be to pick a practice method and apply it to just one or too chords, repeating it as many times as it takes to feel like you've made some progress. It could take a hundred repetitions! Then, do the same with a different practice technique. Do this day in and day out until you've mastered it. And you must FOCUS. You can't do it half-assed. THIS is how you make real progress.

When I was younger I spent over a year working on just four pieces, practising 4-6 hours a day, to get my Associate Diploma. Despite a limited repertoire I improved tremendously during that time and was then able to apply that newly developed skill to everything else I learned.

TLDR; Be the tortoise, not the hare.

[brogers70]

For chord exercises I like these two similar ones. Josh Wright calls it the up-down exercise. I found it very helpful; there are rapid chords I could never get right until I used that one. And Danae Dorken has a similar one (just a slightly different approach to relaxation between the chords) that I've started using as a warm up.

One thing they have in common is that you do not set your hand in an extended position and keep it that way as you move from chord to chord. You also land on the chord silently and only play it after landing, you don't use the impulse of the motion from one chord to another to actually play the chords.