Who is not confused with chord progression and inversions, help ~

[lostinidlewonder]

But inversions do sound different. If they sounded the same, it would have been a matter of indifference to classical composers whether they ended a piece with a tonic chord in root position or in first inversion, yet they seemed to have a preference.

The difference is not as dramatic as you at trying to claim. In fact I could prove by inverting chords in any piece and it would still sound quite ok.

The reason for the different qualities of inversions is the way in which the overtone series of each note lines up with the others. In first inversion the second harmonic of the third of the chord is a half step off from the first harmonic of the root itself, and since the third of the chord is the lowest note, that clash occurs in a relatively low and easily audible octave. You can hear that clash easily if you voice the chord with the third way down in the bass and the root and fifth high up in the treble. When the chord is in root position, the clash between the second harmonic of the third of the chord and the first harmonic of the root happens higher up and is less audible. That makes the first inversion have a more unstable, dissonant quality than the root position. There are always dissonances between the overtones of the three notes of a triad - root position consigns them to the highest, and least audible, octave possible; first inversion makes those dissonances more salient.

This is word salad that is describing something quite simple though. Still I could use different inversions for given chords and it wouldn't disturb the musical structure so greatly. I wonder why you want to look at the difference in such a melodramatic sense?

Just on this part.On having a teacher to learn from.   Those videos are his teacher's "teaching".  He is supposed to "learn from" those videos. 

A teacher teaching through videos is not really teaching in the traditional sense at all. It has already been clarified that these videos are meant as a general education for a group of students and one does not need to explain how this is much less effective than one on one lessons with a teacher. Still it has been claimed that all the problems were solved by watching the video, so you too should watch it too and share with all our friends!

The whole mystery of why the OP is confused about ordinary things, while at the same time citing videos he presently seems to trust is solved in this fact.  If you are a novice music student, you tend to have blind trust in your teacher, you trust what you are given, and you do not yet have enough knowledge to see the holes in it - and you still have loyalty toward that teacher. 

But the problem expained in this thread here should be very easily taught by any teacher if they are dealing with a specific student. What has happened though in this thread is that the OP started with an exclaimation of confusion then a resolution with the very videos they are studying with. It doesn't make sense, why would you say you are confused before you start the video course, go through the course then say WOW I KNOW IT NOW!!!!!

lostinidlewonder, your post speaks volume about your attitude, even you are a elite "concert pianist". I am not going to respond anymore. I feel sorry for you.

Respond? You didn't respond to anything I asked of you at all pertaining specifically to the reason to what your confusion in the matter was.

I've donated my time to plenty of people for many years. I asked you specific questions in my initial post here about the problems you had understanding the issues which you did not respond to, that's fine you don't need to respond at all, but I find it peculiar that someone with a real problem would not take the opportunity to elaborate on the challenges that they faced. It is odd that someone who works for a nobel prize winner and who has published so many technical papers could be confused by something that is not that complicated (and it takes zero piano skill to understand the problems you mentioned so your argument that I'm being an elite concert pianist is void), surely easy compared to the work you deal with every day!

[scientistplayspiano]

lostinidlewonder, I am an OK scientist, but a lousy piano layer and music theoretician, and a poor communicator. Sure enough, I deal with a lot of complicated science problems everyday, that is why I do not have much time left for music theory. But do not insult my piano teacher and her effort because of that. Let's discuss in a more civil and respectful way.

I am sure you are having fun poking me. That's fine. For the Nobel laureate I am associated with, he came up with the original concept of liquid crystal. I am nobody compared to these giants in science. I am only mentioning it to prove I am not a scammer.

[timothy42b]

to timothy42b,
"It doesn't matter if the OP of a thread is possibly a scammer as long as it leads to interesting conversation."
It matters to me, because we are NOT a scammer!

Perhaps scammer is an unfortunate term.

Would it be fair to say that your primary purpose in posting is to publicize your teacher's youtube channel, and your question about chord progressions is less important, almost rhetorical in nature? 

This is the student forum.  It would have been perfectly acceptable to simply post saying you have found an online teacher who is fabulous and really helping you learn, and you want to share.  Otherwise you can seem insincere. 

Or, if you are genuinely confused about chord progressions, maybe just ask a question about that, and get the  answers without the distraction of the videos.

I do have a related question that does not need an answer, but I am genuinely curious.  Your teacher has degrees from Oklahoma University and teaches in Iowa.  Your sentence construction and grammar suggests you are not a native speaker of English.  Is that the case?  Unfortunately on the internet that can cause suspicion. 

[lostinidlewonder]

It's just that this music theory is not very difficult and young children learn it in music school. That is not insulting you I am just saying that the actual content of the question is rather simplistic so I was wondering what the real confusion you have is. I am not insulting your teacher I am merely saying video lessons cannot replace studying one on one with a teacher, it's just a logical conclusion.

I am sure you are having fun poking me. That's fine. For the Nobel laureate I am associated with, he came up with the original concept of liquid crystal. I am nobody compared to these giants in science. I am only mentioning it to prove I am not a scammer.

Well you work for Nobel Prize laureate Dan Shechtman by the looks of it then. I mean you work in quite highly intelligent field, music chords are certainly like playing with childrens blocks for your brain. If not I wonder what exactly stumps you? Still I wonder what's the point in learning all these inversions in all the keys if you are not playing actual pieces which use them? Are you highly interested in improvisation? You still need a large experience base of peices learned for that and learning skills in isolation to actual music has only limited returns. 

[keypeg]

I mentioned the ii6, and it is shown in the Clementi video, time stamp 1:07.

[lostinidlewonder]

Perhaps scammer is an unfortunate term.

Would it be fair to say that your primary purpose in posting is to publicize your teacher's youtube channel, and your question about chord progressions is less important, almost rhetorical in nature? 

This is the student forum.  It would have been perfectly acceptable to simply post saying you have found an online teacher who is fabulous and really helping you learn, and you want to share.  Otherwise you can seem insincere. 

Or, if you are genuinely confused about chord progressions, maybe just ask a question about that, and get the  answers without the distraction of the videos.

I do have a related question that does not need an answer, but I am genuinely curious.  Your teacher has degrees from Oklahoma University and teaches in Iowa.  Your sentence construction and grammar suggests you are not a native speaker of English.  Is that the case?  Unfortunately on the internet that can cause suspicion.

This is what I feel too but we can always have more discussion. I've tried to get the op to explain their confusion and what they don't understand but they rather keep that confusion in a generic sense and not want to reveal anything specific. That's utterly boring for me.

[timothy42b]

I'll send the original question to wkmt, that should take care of the confusion. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I'll send the original question to wkmt, that should take care of the confusion.

errrr /leave thread

[keypeg]

All right, here's my turn for a small confusion, I suppose.

I know that the ii6 (short for ⁶₃) is utterly standard, is in all the textbooks, yadda yadda.

But I swear I've heard at least one person describe the ii6 as just a IV chord with an added (major) six interval.  Does this interpretation hold any water at all, or is it just a case of simplifying the harmony by reducing it to the simpler progression?

It does explain the cadential ii6 pretty well, but seems like a stretch.

Thinking about this.

We have different systems in different time periods and/or different genres, describing music.  In the "traditional" theory, I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a "six chord".  Also I think that jazz chords are more fluid, not tied to function and such. 

I looked up six chords to make sure:
https://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/blog/6-maj6-chords

So in C major, ii6 would be 1st inversion D = D/F.  I think F6 would be F A C D (D is the 6).  Is it still a 6 chord without that C? (asking)  ii6 could be F A D, but also F D A, and in four part harmony you have one doubled note which for "secondary chords" are not necessarily the root (it's been years).

But clearly D/F as F D A has the same notes minus one as F6 does.

In the first figured bass I learned, there wasn't even a Roman numeral.  In the key of C major, you'd see the note F in the bass, and you would end up getting an inverted Dm chord because 6 means 6/3 .... the 3 means "3 up from F" (that's A), and 6 means 6 up from F (that's D) so you end up with D/F which also happens to be ii, 1st inversion.

I think you have two different systems, for two different purposes.  Or, you have two handy ways of looking at music.

[keypeg]

I'll send the original question to wkmt, that should take care of the confusion.

hahahahaha

[scientistplayspiano]

Now we come back to normal discussions. As I mentioned early, I do want to promote these videos, I never hide that intention, and I also have genuine confusion and frustration about chord progression. To me any theory, either in science or in music, is derived from practice. I am a little shocked in music, it ends up with such a simple backbone I IV V. I also spelled my suspicion on chord quality of inversions. However, most of my questions have been thoroughly discussed/addressed. Or at least it will take me a while to digest.

Nonetheless, I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and knowing all of you. I have a very thick skin, way thicker than most concert pianist. So no worries about poking fun at me, but leave my teacher alone, she is a respectful hard-working piano teacher with 3 young children.

Dan Shechtman is a wonderful colleague, however, I only had beer with him but never worked with him. He was under tremendous pressure before getting the Nobel prize (took 30 years), a lot of big names in the field said nasty things about his discovery.

timothy42b, you are correct, I am not a native speaker, still learning after so many years. But Iowa is a very diverse and international place, even more so if you count how many different types of corns we plant, lol.

[lostinidlewonder]

So no worries about poking fun at me, but leave my teacher alone, she is a respectful hard-working piano teacher with 3 young children.

Why are you continuing on and on about your teacher being attacked? I already explained that video lessons DO NOT REPLACE in person lessons and cannot come close to the benefits of one on one teaching, a point you are conveniently ignoring so you can continue on about your poor teacher. So the videos you posted are absolutely rubbish compared to studying with an actual teacher who can take your specific problems into consideration. This is not a personal attack on your teacher it is just revealing a logical conclusion.

If your teacher is getting you to do the chord progression in all keys without you even playing pieces that are in those keys, then I think you are learning in a rather inefficient manner.

[ranjit]

Well, to the OP, you conveniently keep ignoring how others are explicitly pointing out why the videos aren't effective. I don't completely agree that online videos aren't effective for teaching, because I feel like I was able to learn theoretical concepts from online resources like the Coursera course pretty effectively.

[dogperson]

Why are you continuing on and on about your teacher being attacked? I already explained that video lessons DO NOT REPLACE in person lessons and cannot come close to the benefits of one on one teaching, a point you are conveniently ignoring so you can continue on about your poor teacher. So the videos you posted are absolutely rubbish compared to studying with an actual teacher who can take your specific problems into consideration. This is not a personal attack on your teacher it is just revealing a logical conclusion.

If your teacher is getting you to do the chord progression in all keys without you even playing pieces that are in those keys, then I think you are learning in a rather inefficient manner.

Just FYI. This is her INPERSON teacher

[lostinidlewonder]

Just FYI. This is her INPERSON teacher

I know this but the videos are meant for a whole class. Can you ask a video a question? Not really, so the video on its own is quite useless.

[scientistplayspiano]

To lostinidlewonder and some others, you are entitled to your opinions. However, let me remind you humbleness is also a virtue, beyond your virtuoso piano knowledge.

Let me ask you this, how do you do in-person during COVID time? How many in-person concerts have you been giving? Following your logic, online concerts are absolutely rubbish, there is no way sound quality and experience can match in-person ones.

Another question for the smart people here to answer, if a student is sick, how could he still learn?

You and others keep ignoring my message, these are made for level 1 beginners, whose who have no idea know what chord progression is, how to sit in front of piano. These videos are not made for any of those who think they have learned everything about music theory. These are SUPPLEMENT for in-person teaching, for those unfortunate ones during COVID lockdown.

Not everyone can afford taking in-person classes, not to mention those who lived in less economy developed countries. Do I need to remind you we are still in one of the worst PANDEMIC?

[brogers70]

Please take a deep breath. There's nothing wrong with using videos. The problem is, those particular videos do not contain a particularly clear explanation of music theory and harmony. You don't need in person lessons to learn music theory. I suggested links to a standard text and a good on-line course that covers them. You're a scientist. This stuff is not rocket science. Just read the text and/or take that course on-line (free), and you can learn it.

[scientistplayspiano]

I appreciate the comment, however, please make a 10 min video and teach me music theory. If you cannot, stop criticizing my teacher's video for not doing that. It is meant to inspire and introduce the concept, even it is not perfect.

Yes, I am very thankful to many posts, and taking notes here, but also very irritated by certain self-righteous snob that could not tell the difference between "liquid crystal" and "quasicrystal". This is supposed to be a student board open for discussion and show respect. If you do not show respect, stop acting like you are a teacher, because you are a fake.

It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.

[timothy42b]

It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.

Is that really true, scientifically?  Because what I notice is one apple or one potato in a bag will go bad, and it's usually one on the bottom or edge that probably got bumped and bruised.  I dunno, you could be right, but I don't see that in my kitchen.  I throw out the bad one and the rest are fine. 

But back on topic.  Your feelings are hurt because the teacher videos you posted did not receive the unconditional awe that they inspired in you.  You expected, and thought yourself entitled to, our grateful appreciation. 

But that's not how forums work - what you post is subject to evaluation and criticism.  Maybe you can see a way to improve them from the comments here. 

I haven't watched them myself, but I'll try to get to that and let you know what I think. 

[lostinidlewonder]

To lostinidlewonder and some others, you are entitled to your opinions. However, let me remind you humbleness is also a virtue, beyond your virtuoso piano knowledge.

Well you don't really know my qualifications other than I have been on this piano forum for over 16 years giving my advice on piano matters, there are thousands of posts of mine you can go through and read about my perspectives on piano education and playing. What has any of this to do with "virtuoso piano knowledge" what is that even and what type of knowledge like that has been discussed or brough up here by anyone?

How am I being unhumble or better still what is there to be humble about? If you want to make an argument that videos can replace real teachers please make one, that is the only critique I provided that it falls very short by comparison. Videos are not good enough to solve peoples issues, it might help some but others might simply be better off to read about it in a book rather than being told by someone how to do it who might give an overly simplistic or complicated perspective that does not resonate with your current skill level and/or interests. The person learning through books and videos might actually have questions that they don't understand, a book or video is not going to talk to you about your SPECIFIC questions like a real teacher.

Why wouldn't you learn the theory appropriately when you are studying with your teacher one on one, why does it have to be done with a video? It seems like an unusual way to teach. I can understand using videos to help reenforce what you might have learned in lessons but it always will be done in some generic way which may hit or miss with your current understanding if it is not created specifically for you as an individual student.

Let me ask you this, how do you do in-person during COVID time? How many in-person concerts have you been giving? Following your logic, online concerts are absolutely rubbish, there is no way sound quality and experience can match in-person ones.

You can have in person over video conferencing one on one. Watching a lifeless prerecorded video is not in person, much further away from that. Online concerts are absolute rubbish compared to being there in person. Just because I say it's rubbish in comparison doesn't mean one can get joy out of it though, a scientific mind should read between my lines since I am making a comparison not a decliration of the quality of something as it stands alone. 

Another question for the smart people here to answer, if a student is sick, how could he still learn?

Why would you want too learn if you are sick? There are better things to do.

You and others keep ignoring my message, these are made for level 1 beginners, whose who have no idea know what chord progression is, how to sit in front of piano. These videos are not made for any of those who think they have learned everything about music theory. These are SUPPLEMENT for in-person teaching, for those unfortunate ones during COVID lockdown.

And you keep ignoring my criticism that learning chord progressions in all keys, something which you described you have been told to do in your very first post, is actually rather useless, why not play pieces which actually use them? If your teacher is making a beginner go through chord progression in all keys this is just absolute torture.

Not everyone can afford taking in-person classes, not to mention those who lived in less economy developed countries. Do I need to remind you we are still in one of the worst PANDEMIC?

Replace "in person" to mean physically being there with someone with the idea of live one on one type lesson interaction. Also video lessons one on one are RUBBISH compared to lessons with a teacher sitting right next to you in person. This is a comparison not an isolated description of something.

[ranjit]

However, let me remind you humbleness is also a virtue, beyond your virtuoso piano knowledge.

This is getting ridiculous. You posted a video, basically unsolicited spam for promoting your teacher, along with a rather insincere question. Others on the forum were gracious enough to watch and respond directly to the video and your (again somewhat insincere) question and provide honest feedback. What else do you expect from a forum? There's nothing not humble about it. And many of the people who have responded here are better performers and teachers than your own. While you don't need to be better than someone to point out their mistakes, even by your own logic, many of them are more than qualified to criticize the teaching here.

You and others keep ignoring my message, these are made for level 1 beginners, whose who have no idea know what chord progression is, how to sit in front of piano. These videos are not made for any of those who think they have learned everything about music theory. These are SUPPLEMENT for in-person teaching, for those unfortunate ones during COVID lockdown.

Not everyone can afford taking in-person classes, not to mention those who lived in less economy developed countries. Do I need to remind you we are still in one of the worst PANDEMIC?

Hey, as someone who has PRIMARILY learned from online videos, this is a pile of bullshit, sorry. You have no idea how self-teaching works, or how beginners need to be taught, and are just spouting random opinions at this point. Bad teaching is bad teaching, period. Check out the course brogers mentioned. It is the one I followed, and the instructor was very good with his explanations. Your teacher spent 10 minutes explaining four basic chords, out of context, in a confusing way for beginners. I rest my case.

[timothy42b]

This teacher is president of the Iowa MTNA, and has some good credentials at least on paper.

Dr. Janci L. A. Bronson is the Coordinator of Class Piano and Piano Pedagogy at Iowa State University. She earned a Ph.D. in Music Education with an emphasis in Piano Pedagogy from the University of Oklahoma (OU) where she studied with Drs. Jane Magrath and Barbara Fast. She previously earned a Master of Music in Piano Performance and Pedagogy from OU and a Bachelor of Music, summa cum laude in Piano Performance from Kansas State University.

I can see why the OP would be impressed.

I'm not sure why an accomplished teacher would be using a total amateur to do recording though.

[keypeg]

I actually took the time to go through things this time.   I looked at the OP's different posts. All of them do seem to feature his teacher's material, but most of the posts are "Re: " - i.e. they are in response to someone else's post.   Well, when I answer something, the information and ideas I give are in fact often things I learned from my teacher.  I think it's natural to quote one's teacher(s) because otherwise why would you be studying with them - and that enthusiasm is probably especially high in the first years. The title in this thread could be seen as a little click-baity "Who is not confused....." but I don't think it was intended that way.  If there were a bunch of new threads that started "Exciting new information!" etc. etc., then yeah.

I went through the two videos presented here.  They are basically decent videos, and they are also decently organized and planned.  In one of them I noticed that the teachers suggests to students to also consult other information sources (same as a few of us said).  These videos are an adjunct to what she is teaching: supplementary material to be use in addition to what she is teaching.  They're not meant as the be-all end-all.  Possibly she would not want them to be presented in the way they have been here, for risk of misunderstanding.

The on on I IV V7 I starts with a definition of each chord: then the chords are played in root position, and finally in the inversions we see.  The reason is also explained - so you don't bounced around up 4, up 1, down 5, boinga boinga.  It's an exercise.

Personally I don't like the idea of mixing together the idea of major and degrees.  It happens that in a major key, the 1st, 4th & 5th degree chords are major triads.  But that is not what makes them major.  And then this pertains to major keys.  It's a different kettle of fish when you get to minor keys, and the three commonly taught minor scales.  Why mention degrees at all? (If I go back to how my RCM-based books taught this, I know why, but don't know if I agree with it.)

The 2nd video on qualities - the exercise at the end is straightforward and similar to what I learned.  The explanations are "traditional" and much more complex than they need be. But often it seems to be taught that way.

[keypeg]

Re: the Chopin Em Prelude, and learning these qualities will help you to some day play this piece - being aware of the qualities will indeed help you appreciate the piece.  But there are much easier ways of learning to play the chords / notes.  This happens to be the first piece I did with my teacher.  While I also learned chord qualities, the simplest thing is to realize that at every chord change, only one note in the chord changes, and always descending by a semitone.  That made the chords come together lickety split for me.

[themeandvariation]

Re: the Chopin Em Prelude, ... the simplest thing is to realize that at every chord change, only one note in the chord changes, and always descending by a semitone.

This is only true for the first 9 bars. After that, sometimes more than one note changes when going to the next chord, and the change isn't always descending.

[ranjit]

Bad teaching is bad teaching, period. Check out the course brogers mentioned. It is the one I followed, and the instructor was very good with his explanations. Your teacher spent 10 minutes explaining four basic chords, out of context, in a confusing way for beginners.

I may have come across harsher than I had intended. I don't doubt that the teacher is quite good at what she does. However, you are constantly making arguments from authority, which is grating, because there are certain things in these videos that could be explained better, and the explanation is more confusing for beginners than it has to be. Just because a teacher is accomplished doesn't mean that they can teach optimally for all levels -- some teachers are very bad at teaching beginners but excel with advanced students and everything in between. So, when talking about a teaching video, arguments should be made based on the video, and not the supposed merit of the teacher. I've observed a tendency for people with certain backgrounds to attach a lot of importance to authority, and this sometimes results in passing off relatively bad teaching as good teaching, because to do otherwise would be a perceived slight to the authority figure and therefore somewhat arrogant. I usually disagree with that.

[ranjit]

You and others keep ignoring my message, these are made for level 1 beginners, whose who have no idea know what chord progression is, how to sit in front of piano. These videos are not made for any of those who think they have learned everything about music theory. These are SUPPLEMENT for in-person teaching, for those unfortunate ones during COVID lockdown.

Not everyone can afford taking in-person classes, not to mention those who lived in less economy developed countries. Do I need to remind you we are still in one of the worst PANDEMIC?

This was the part I was more annoyed by. Because several of us in this thread have actually self-taught this stuff, and know where the pitfalls lie for beginners and what kind of teaching actually works well. And as far as I can see, the teaching in the videos is not optimal for teaching the same kinds of beginners or self-taught students you are talking about. How do I know? Because I actually was in that position, and have seen better videos which helped me learn a lot of these things properly. I have never had a teacher teach me an ounce of music theory, I learned it all from online resources.

[timothy42b]

If you look at how some of these things have been "taught" it will be clear why they appeared confusing to the OP.

Yes.  I found it so.

I did not want to comment until I had a chance to actually listen. 

I found the chord progression extremely confusing as she continuted to throw in unrelated scraps of theory that would be completely over a beginner's head.  They kept me wondering where she was going next and wishing for a coherent whole, and I do actually know and have used most of that.  (all except the figured bass.  I have read and understood it, but because I've never had an opportunity to do it there's no way to keep it in my brain) 

That was one third of my discomfort.  Two thirds came from something else, and because I've not watched a lot of instructional piano videos I might be very unfair in this criticism.  But, can you get a more cheesy sounding digital piano?  I have my laptop connected to a decent home stereo via a USB Audio interface, and I value sound quality.  I'm not sure I would recognize that as a piano.  I liked how she overlaid her hands, the keys, and the sheet music in three easily seen layers, but ..........argh, the sound.  It took me three tries to get through the second one on triad quality.  That one was somewhat better in staying on topic without all those sidebars and deviations.  We're not talking a child doing a podcast in his bedroom here, we're talking the head of a university pedagogy program doing a video like this.

[Bob]

what is the fundamental reason people follow certain chord progression? Like my teacher always ask me to practice I - IV - V7 progression....

A step or half step is a big difference in a music.  Even being a little flat or sharp is a problem.  99% correct doesn't always sound right.

I IV V I is the chord progression in most things.  Like the uber chord progression.  It can be varied a lot, like I ii V I, but the general pattern is still there. 

If it doesn't make sense, just learn it.  Later it will make sense. 

Potentially it's more of a balance between practicing pieces vs. music theory.  This is on the earlier end of music theory.  There's a lot more beyond this.  So just learn it.