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Topic: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 2530 times)

Offline sachmaninoff

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Hi!

I've been playing this c sharp minor Scherzo for a while, took a break and now need every single ways you can imagine practising those fast passages/runs in the chorale section!!! For coda too but that's not as big a problem.

Please, I ran out of ideas and cannot progress (and I'll need to perform it in after a month...)


Thanks in advance!
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Offline fftransform

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #1 on: October 08, 2021, 04:52:28 PM
Heard it so many times at the Warsaw the past few days.  Don't have any tips, but did want to highlight this rather unique, Debussy-like interp of those passages.  Didn't hear anything like it the whole competition, so far, so I think it's a very special way of playing them.  Maybe you will find it easier, or be inspired:



Anyway, is it just the raw 'hitting of the notes in tempo' that you're struggling with, or is it keeping the double-notes from sounding noisy?

Offline nightwindsonata

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #2 on: October 08, 2021, 04:53:04 PM
You sound desperate. Lol.

The best advice I can give is to decide ahead of time what fingering you want. Changing it each time will not help you, it will only make the practice more frustrating, and you will never get anywhere.

After this, practice the falling melodic lines individually, slowly at first, then at tempo. What I mean by this is: in these passage, ie mm 175-179, isolate the top part of the pattern (for instance, the Eb-Db-Cb-Bb-Ab-Gb-Eb-Db-Cb-Bb-Ab-Gb line in the right hand, excluding the eighth notes that are not a part of this line, but still WITH THE PROPER FINGERING). Memorize it. Then do the bottom line. Then do the same for the left hand top line. Then put the left hand bottom line. Then do the right hand and left hand top lines. Then the right hand and left hand bottom lines. All with proper fingering. This will help you get a sense of the shape at tempo.

Then, practice it blocked, moving from each position as though you were practicing a chordal passage, both hands (hold the chord, move as quickly as possible to the new position, but without actually playing the notes. Then repeat). After you can do this comfortably, play as written in three, four, or five-note chunks, hands alone first, then together, minimizing movement, but as fast as possible, laser-focusing in on the feeling associated with each change of position. Once again, do this with the same fingering that you practiced above. By this time, you will have started to glean a deep understanding of the passage that you will not get just from playing it slowly over and over again. Do not rush the final step of getting it up to tempo; you may need to repeat this process a few times to really get it down. Eventually, however, I promise it will help you move towards your goal of performance. This is a tough piece, best of luck!
1st-year Master's Program:
- Ravel Piano Concerto
- Liszt Ricordanza
- Liszt 3 Liebestraums
- Liszt 3 Sonnets

- Rhapsody in Blue
- Dante Sonata
- Schubert Sonata D.780
- Mozart Piano Quartet in Gm

Offline sachmaninoff

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #3 on: October 08, 2021, 05:00:13 PM
Heard it so many times at the Warsaw the past few days.  Don't have any tips, but did want to highlight this rather unique, Debussy-like interp of those passages.  Didn't hear anything like it the whole competition, so far, so I think it's a very special way of playing them.  Maybe you will find it easier, or be inspired:



Sounds amazing! Thank you! I find that passage similar to Pogorelich's rendition

Offline sachmaninoff

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #4 on: October 08, 2021, 05:07:00 PM
You sound desperate. Lol.

The best advice I can give is to decide ahead of time what fingering you want. Changing it each time will not help you, it will only make the practice more frustrating, and you will never get anywhere.

After this, practice the falling melodic lines individually, slowly at first, then at tempo. What I mean by this is: in these passage, ie mm 175-179, isolate the top part of the pattern (for instance, the Eb-Db-Cb-Bb-Ab-Gb-Eb-Db-Cb-Bb-Ab-Gb line in the right hand, excluding the eighth notes that are not a part of this line, but still WITH THE PROPER FINGERING). Memorize it. Then do the bottom line. Then do the same for the left hand top line. Then put the left hand bottom line. Then do the right hand and left hand top lines. Then the right hand and left hand bottom lines. All with proper fingering. This will help you get a sense of the shape at tempo.

Then, practice it blocked, moving from each position as though you were practicing a chordal passage, both hands (hold the chord, move as quickly as possible to the new position, but without actually playing the notes. Then repeat). After you can do this comfortably, play as written in three, four, or five-note chunks, hands alone first, then together, minimizing movement, but as fast as possible, laser-focusing in on the feeling associated with each change of position. Once again, do this with the same fingering that you practiced above. By this time, you will have started to glean a deep understanding of the passage that you will not get just from playing it slowly over and over again. Do not rush the final step of getting it up to tempo; you may need to repeat this process a few times to really get it down. Eventually, however, I promise it will help you move towards your goal of performance. This is a tough piece, best of luck!

Thank you so much!! Pretty much the same I've done when started playing this, I guess there's no other cure for it than practise it very primitively and thoroughly. Thanks!

Offline nightwindsonata

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #5 on: October 09, 2021, 04:30:46 PM
Unfortunately there's nothing else for it but to practice  :( I wish there were some other way, but some pieces just ask for that kind of work.
1st-year Master's Program:
- Ravel Piano Concerto
- Liszt Ricordanza
- Liszt 3 Liebestraums
- Liszt 3 Sonnets

- Rhapsody in Blue
- Dante Sonata
- Schubert Sonata D.780
- Mozart Piano Quartet in Gm

Offline lelle

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #6 on: October 09, 2021, 11:37:03 PM
Good tips from nightwindsonata. If I recall almost all of the patterns can be fingered 5241, so you can feel each group of 4 notes as a chord basically. It doesn't feel so fast, but merely like a position shift every 4 notes.

Offline jimroof

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #7 on: October 16, 2021, 01:14:12 AM
I played this in a sophomore recital way way back in 1977.  I practiced the left hand alone a good bit.  My rendering of it was also a rather airy version.  Somewhere on this site I uploaded my recording from that recital.  I'll try to find it and throw a link to it here.

Take it slow.  The left hand, for me, was the key to success. 

Here is the thread from 6 years ago...

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60400.msg648357#msg648357
Chopin Ballades
Chopin Scherzos 2 and 3
Mephisto Waltz 1
Beethoven Piano Concerto 3
Schumann Concerto Am
Ginastera Piano Sonata
L'isle Joyeuse
Feux d'Artifice
Prokofiev Sonata Dm

Offline sachmaninoff

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Re: TIPS FOR PRACTICING Chopin's Scherzo no. 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #8 on: October 18, 2021, 08:40:14 AM
I played this in a sophomore recital way way back in 1977.  I practiced the left hand alone a good bit.  My rendering of it was also a rather airy version.  Somewhere on this site I uploaded my recording from that recital.  I'll try to find it and throw a link to it here.

Take it slow.  The left hand, for me, was the key to success. 

Here is the thread from 6 years ago...

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60400.msg648357#msg648357

Thank you! That recording was outstanding. I've noticed that I should work on my left hand too

Offline cagoo1961

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Thank you! That recording was outstanding. I've noticed that I should work on my left hand too
I think playing piano in left hand isn't easy.
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