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Topic: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique? (Read 3529 times)

alexf26

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Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

on: October 30, 2021, 10:13:51 PM

Hello! I have a question about my technique / playing and a decision to make.
I'm self-taught (7 months since I started from scratch). I happy to have achieved the full Clementi sonatina op.36 n.1 at the tempo I wanted, but I found the smooth hand / finger movement of advanced players so fascinating.
This is me playing the 3rd movement:

Look at minute 2:49 for the same sonatina movement - to compare with my recording (I know his tempo and precision are much faster) - but apart from that, his technique is insanely good, I think... He is super flowy, free, light and with no tension.

Mine looks stiffer specially in the beginning and I don't lift my hand as much.

Any tips I can do to get closer to that level? This the type of thing that comes with time as you build confidence with the piano?

Or simply just time to get myself a teacher asap?

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lelle

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #1 on: October 30, 2021, 11:07:23 PM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 30, 2021, 10:13:51 PM

Any tips I can do to get closer to that level? This the type of thing that comes with time as you build confidence with the piano?

Or simply just time to get myself a teacher asap?

I'd say yes and no. It can develop to some degree on its own, but you cannot count on it happening. If you are unlucky, you can set yourself up for learning some really bad habits along the way that will make it ten times harder to get a relaxed, graceful technique.

The most efficient way is to get a good teacher who knows how to teach it. But watch out, because not all teachers can. Some talented pianists develop their technique naturally and therefore don't know how to teach it to somebody to whom it does not come naturally. Others have tense, inefficient technique themselves and therefore also cannot teach the graceful, relaxed technique you are looking for.

So I'd recommend you to get a teacher ASAP, but to also continually evaluate your investment. Can they play that way themselves? Can they teach you and are you improving?

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #2 on: October 30, 2021, 11:19:22 PM

Clarifying answer, makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

And I think this is not just about flare, as the way your body moves also affects the sound and most importantly the way you convey your intentions to the audience - just improves the performance overall. Would you agree?

Don't want to overestimate details in technique over musicality but I do notice all concert pianists have this "ease" of movement.

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lelle

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #3 on: October 30, 2021, 11:31:02 PM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 30, 2021, 11:19:22 PM

And I think this is not just about flare, as the way your body moves also affects the sound and most importantly the way you convey your intentions to the audience - just improves the performance overall. Would you agree?

Don't want to overestimate details in technique over musicality but I do notice all concert pianists have this "ease" of movement.

Yes, you need relaxation and ease of movement to play difficult music. Especially in front of an audience

As a performer you need to have your mental resources focused on the contents on the music and cannot be distracted by struggling to maintain control over your own body. You also risk injuring yourself otherwise.

There is no shame in wanting to focus on technique. You need it to reach your full potential with your musicality. People sometimes frown at people focused on technique because you hear a lot of pianists with a lot of mechnical skill but little musicality. But if you are very musical but have no technique you won't be able to convey your ideas anyways. So I think it's a good idea to take technique seriously, especially when you start from a desire of playing beautifully

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #4 on: October 30, 2021, 11:42:43 PM

You took the words out of my mouth. As a beginner I feel reassured. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Now a matter of finding a good teacher. It's hard as I live in a small area, would love to get a good classical one.

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ranjit

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #5 on: October 31, 2021, 12:35:26 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 30, 2021, 11:42:43 PM

Now a matter of finding a good teacher. It's hard as I live in a small area, would love to get a good classical one.

You can find very good teachers online, and it can work quite well.

Now, as to your playing -- I find it hard to find fault at first glance, and that to me shows that you have been able to observe and imitate (in a positive sense) the hand shapes of pianists well. However, you are slowly reaching a point where it will be nearly impossible to improve in that manner, because you can't literally see the force being applied on the key and the nature of the key attack. An experienced pianist can sort of tell, partly based on very subtle things like a certain minute flex of muscles in the forearm or whatever, but it will be downright impossible for an amateur to do. So, I think it's best if you get a teacher. Even if you figure out a few more things from understanding and imitating the movements of pianists, I don't think you'll be able to achieve a true, comprehensive understanding of piano technique. For example, right now, your playing is rather "shallow", and common advice is to "feel the bottom of the key", or "play more deeply into the keys". Now, the problem with that piece of advice is that it's extremely difficult to see exactly what that means, because it involves the few milliseconds in between when you touch the top of the piano key to where it is fully depressed. It is more readily felt. You may naturally acquire the right coordinations, in which case count yourself lucky, but it will be a gamble. I don't think it's possible to acquire a good understanding of technique only from watching piano players play. It may be possible with a combination of experimentation, intuition, and/or a lot of knowledge about physiology and reading books etc. But even then, it can't accurately be conveyed in words, so at the end of the day, without personalized feedback, it will be extremely hard to learn on your own.

The good thing is that a very good teacher will often be able to teach online and be quite effective. This is because different kinds of touches result in slightly different sounds and patterns of inconsistencies. If someone is really good at breaking those down and analyzing what may have went wrong, they can teach it online. But for that you will need a very good pianist and teacher.

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #6 on: October 31, 2021, 12:57:00 AM

Thanks so much ranjit!

It was my thumb and raised fingers on the fortissimo parts that caught my eye. I always record myself and look for issues, I guess that kinda helped...

I was an illusionist and sleight of hand artist so have this vice of looking at hand movements in detail.

There will be a concert with 2 pianists in my area, they both teach. I think I will try them if I like their playing, then if no good will follow your advice and look online.

Thanks again for the awesome insight.

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ranjit

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #7 on: October 31, 2021, 01:54:12 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 12:57:00 AM

I was an illusionist and sleight of hand artist so have this vice of looking at hand movements in detail.

That is awesome! I think I sort of spot people in the wild who learn that way. I've actually done the same, imitating concert pianists' hand movements and all and was pretty successful at it. I was self-taught as well, and yes, what you're doing is one of the best ways to self-teach imo, straight from the horse's mouth as it were. But yeah, that's the insight I gleaned after taking lessons with a good teacher -- what I was missing. It was very subtle, and my teacher kept insisting that I be patient because adults have a very hard time acquiring hand coordination like that, and many never attain it.

The ability to observe is really useful, and really instrumental to learning piano technique. There is a wide variance in how well people pull it off, I've been surprised by people who don't obviously notice a high wrist from a low wrist. But I'm sure you focus on the individual finger joints, the shape and rigidity of the hand and the overall relaxation from the arm etc. I see you doing all of these things in the video you posted, and it's quite similar to what I did, although obviously you were able to observe some things better and some worse. But given that you have that ability to perceive hand movements, with a great teacher, you can really shine. I won't say the sky's the limit, but I think you can go very far if you have that kind of knack. Of course, other factors such as how keenly you are able perceive sound also come into the picture as well.

Makes me wonder if I can try my hand at being a sleight of hand artist.

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #8 on: October 31, 2021, 01:58:22 AM

Discussing ones technique in words in rather clumsy but I guess we have no choice on messsage boards.

On a number of occasions your 34 fingers seem weak and a little uneven. I don't understand gravity drops which end with no notes being pressed, even if they are positional shifts they seems unnecessary. Slow down your video to 25% speed and see if you notice any movements that look odd. Overexaggerating the upward movements of the hands for the short sounds also seems too much, I know people do that but it's generally just superflous movements.

You've barely had a year learning the piano, I feel you need to relax and just experience playing a lot more rather than obsess over small issues. Many problems do solve themselves as your exprience grows and it can be an inefficient use of your time if you focus on small issues and don't just carry on.

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #9 on: October 31, 2021, 02:14:52 AM

Ah yes I've been struggling so hard with 3/4 movement. I do find myself sometimes overexaggerating some movements - I think I'm trying to get more relaxed so I do bigger gestures to promote the key release motion.
In terms of being superfluous or not I think when you dominate the technique it becomes a matter of style and I know most people around here don't like the flamboyant unnecessary movements that even some advanced pianists do.

For me - I'm still discovering my own style or sense of style.

I don't think at all it's a waste of time looking at details. Deep understanding is what keeps me engaged and interested in mastering this or any skill. But yes as a beginner I understand what you are saying, I should be focusing on playing as many different pieces as I can

Thanks for your input

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #10 on: October 31, 2021, 02:23:46 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 02:14:52 AM

Ah yes I've been struggling so hard with 3/4 movement. I do find myself sometimes overexaggerating some movements - I think I'm trying to get more relaxed so I do bigger gestures to promote the key release motion.

Ok, but I personally don't think that large movements promote relaxation, if you are really naturally doing this without thought it's a different matter, but if you are intentionally doing it I would question its use.

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 02:14:52 AM

In terms of being superfluous or not I think when you dominate the technique it becomes a matter of style and I know most people around here don't like the flamboyant unnecessary movements that even some advanced pianists do.

It seems to me that it is a case of "a piece playing the pianist and not the pianist playing the piece". Large movements really don't improve the sound and are more for showmanship. As someone who is starting out I would encourage you to play much more lazily and not use large movements, afterall the best piano technique is that which is extremely lazy but which produces a desired sound.

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 02:14:52 AM

I don't think at all it's a waste of time looking at details. Deep understanding is what keeps me engaged and interested in mastering this or any skill. But yes as a beginner I understand what you are saying, I should be focusing on playing as many different pieces as I can

It's is not that it is useless but it is a waste of time COMPARED TO studying issues which have greater priority. You can focus on the leaf for years if you want to but then miss out on many more important issues. Sometimes if you have the larger tree in focus the leaves start to solve themselves. As a teacher over the years I have seen people waste their time to many different degrees and it is something I am always worried about and working against. It is so easy to flouder about with the piano and before you know it years have past, youth has been lost!

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #11 on: October 31, 2021, 02:26:36 AM

Ranjit you are too kind.

Quote

Makes me wonder if I can try my hand at being a sleight of hand artist.

Who knows?

Interestingly I've found a lot of similarities between the two types of art.
Sense of breathing/phrasing also exist in magic and how you flourish cards follows a certain rhythm.
Also both work immensely on fine motor skills and intrinsic muscles of the hand.

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #12 on: October 31, 2021, 02:37:06 AM

Quote

It's is not that it is useless but it is a waste of time COMPARED TO studying issues which have greater priority.

lostinidlewonder

I see I see..., that's why I think my next step is get some real guidance so that I know what are the priorities - because I'm really struggling to find what to do.

Quote

I would encourage you to play much more lazily and not use large movements, afterall the best piano technique is that which is extremely lazy but which produces a desired sound.

That makes total sense actually, will keep that in mind!
the "lazier" it is the more energy efficient; and also will contribute to that effortless look of playing.

Thanks again

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ranjit

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #13 on: October 31, 2021, 02:44:12 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 02:14:52 AM

I think I'm trying to get more relaxed so I do bigger gestures to promote the key release motion.
In terms of being superfluous or not I think when you dominate the technique it becomes a matter of style and I know most people around here don't like the flamboyant unnecessary movements that even some advanced pianists do.

If it feels natural, then there's no real issue, but I think it misses the point. The crux of piano technique is in those micro movements which happen during the split second in which you attack the key, or release tension, or move from one key to another. Do you metaphorically stand on a key, bounce off a key like a springboard, sink into a key like it's quicksand? Do you push off a key to get to another like a leap, or do you release from the first in one movement and then play the next as another? To what extent to you allow sounds to blend or overlap, how much do you depress the pedal and at what precise note do you release it?

Imagining all of that going on during the very short timeframe it takes to depress a key is daunting. But it is imo what really underlies technique. And on top of that, you don't literally think of what notes your playing. You think of a certain headspace or imaginary stimulus which will get you to do the movement which you want to do.

As for flamboyance, I think that the reason a lot of people are against it is conservatism or just that they dislike the aesthetic. Ignore those people, it is irrelevant here. Instead, if you look at the core movements of concert pianists for example, there is usually no idiosyncratic flamboyance but rather an incredibly efficient technique honed over decades to perfection. Think of the few milliseconds it takes to depress a key and go frame by frame to try and decode what is actually happening. You will see several approaches if you are observant, but you'll always see that there is very little energy wasted, there's incredible attention to detail in terms of the hand position, which parts of the hand absorb and distribute the impulse, etc. I know I'm talking about it almost like a sport which may feel weird to some, but at the end of the day it is a physical activity involving motor coordination at a high level, so the same principles must apply because the physics is the same. What is going on in the mind may be very different, but you can't cheat the physical movements.

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #14 on: October 31, 2021, 02:48:18 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 02:37:06 AM

I see I see..., that's why I think my next step is get some real guidance so that I know what are the priorities - because I'm really struggling to find what to do.

It's not a basic solution to specifically focus on what priorities are most important for you at your current stage (it would take me as a teacher several lessons to hone in on it). Online people can give you general ideas but not really peel back all those layers to get to what you specifically need to do. Rate at learning music, practice method and reading skills are very much under discussed and underestimated for their importance online, people are caught up over other issues which really can be time wasters. It is something to be wary about.

Quote from: alexf26 on October 31, 2021, 02:14:52 AM

That makes total sense actually, will keep that in mind!
the "lazier" it is the more energy efficient; and also will contribute to that effortless look of playing.

Right. I dabble with card tricks and really it is much like this too as you would notice a lot clearer than myself. You learn the general movement and then spend a lot of time perfecting it and making it look effortless and natural. When I learned a sleight of hand routine with cards I would learn the entire routine and then continue improving with the whole picture in mind, with piano studies it is very good to approach it in the same way rather than learning it small part at a time (although this can be difficult to break away from if ones reading/practice skills are not there to do it). When you have a larger library of card control movements you can then create chains of them yourself and ideas yourself, when you learn new tricks you notice how it is connect to ideas you have done before and thus grasping hold of the entire picture becomes more immediate.

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #15 on: October 31, 2021, 03:08:34 AM

Yes but also this thread was more to kill my curiosity / get confirmation that teacher is the next step. as I have no one to talk to about piano to, lol.

I'm thankful for your warning, I'm sure you speak from experience.
As a 26 year old beginner and with plans to reach a high level (have no desire of professional career - I know that requires a much earlier start - I just want to be able to play hard pieces) indeed don't want to waste time

Absolutely, focusing on the bigger picture and creating connections by experimenting as much as you can - you learn so much more and get a lot of "aha" moments
Yes, memorizing the trick is sort of easy, but perfecting the angles, momentum, smoothness of action, building confidence, there comes 95% of the work.
Then the matter of moving on or obsess over details - we start on listing one of many self imposed obstacles in a learning journey. which I know increase exponentially when you are self taught have no one to snap you out of it.

This became interesting I feel I could spend the day discussing

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #16 on: October 31, 2021, 03:30:18 AM

Quote

know I'm talking about it almost like a sport which may feel weird to some

Not at all. I fully agree with you, essentially it is a motor movement, a very fine one with a grade of complexity off the charts.
You can decode the technique of a runner frame by frame. For elite runners they go frame by frame, they analyze every inch of every angle to get those extra milliseconds.

Not suggesting we should to the same, but in fact a fascinating topic - what exact movements and what speeds produce the best sound or produce the best sound AND look the best?
Bc for me what you see is also important, as a viewer the way you perceive sound changes quite a lot depending on how the performer presents himself in terms of movement, which can be shaped very finely.

Topic for a 7 month beginner? Maybe not... or maybe it's a topic suitable for everyone.
- anyway it's not preventing me from practicing and learn other pieces

Your post was insightful, detailed and super interesting ranjit

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bwl_13

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #17 on: November 15, 2021, 05:51:13 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on October 30, 2021, 10:13:51 PM

Any tips I can do to get closer to that level? This the type of thing that comes with time as you build confidence with the piano?

Or simply just time to get myself a teacher asap?

I haven't had a chance to read through every single comment left on this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything someone else has said. First thing is congratulations on paying such close attention to the way your body moves as a self taught pianist. I've seen some really worrying posture and tension in self taught beginners' playing so this very well done so far. However, don't let my comment make you think you shouldn't get a teacher. Your hands look like you're on the right track, but bad habits can develop and part of the reason that it's so important to have a teacher is so they can spot things like this.

One of the most helpful pieces of advice I've received is from Annique from the YouTube
channel HeartofKeys or something like that. She speaks about the body being the real instrument and she has some of the loosest and most natural playing I've ever seen. Some of her earliest videos especially are invaluable, although I'm not certain whether some things she says might give beginners the wrong idea so I'm now slightly second guessing myself. I'm mostly thinking of her videos on fingering so maybe approach those with a slightly different mindset if you do watch them? Anyway, this truth about the body is essential to realize and helps so much with relieving tension.

Finally, as to your final question I can only give you my experience. A while ago I was feeling the same way you were and tried to figure out how you play as fluidly as possible and I'm happy to report that all that it took for ME was experience. However, keep in mind I do have a teacher and although I don't recall her mentioning much or really anything about posture I still had somebody there guiding me. It's a personal thing and by no means am I the most relaxed pianist in the world, but I definitely feel like a lot of the tension issues I was dealing with back then have lessened to such an extreme that it's far harder to notice them. Don't get me wrong, they're still there, but finding them requires being as mindful as possible about the different ways your hand feels as you play. Anyway, I'm gonna have to learn to be more concise on this forum lol...

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alexf26

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Re: Tips on playing gracefully with no tension. Lack of technique?

Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 02:57:51 AM

Heya bwl_13, thanks for the reply :DD

Good news I got a teacher, started last week. First lesson I felt nervous and couldn't properly function

hope this goes away in future lessons.
she didn't start anything specific other then let me play and talk lol. She did but did point out a few issues with similar comments as made by ranjit and lost.

Eager for my next lessons to see how is the approach - and feel much more motivated already. Really think it was the right call.

Thanks all of you for the help

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