Where should I put the piano? and where do you put piano at home?

[julytwenty]

Hi all,

We plan to remodel our house soon. My husband and I are debating about where to place the piano. (we both play). It is a model M.

Option 1 - living room.
* pro: larger room
* con: too much echo from all the stuff in living room

Option 2 - a dedicated room.
* pro: plan to add sound proof so we can play any time we want
* con: smaller space than living room. It seems to be a waste of space if we don't combine it with room function such as home library or office.

Option 3 - combined home library/office and piano.
* pro: save space. share bookshelf for scores
* con: lot of distractions

Want to collect some inputs from everyone. Thanks

[quantum]

What kind of musical activities would you be involving the piano with?  Is it just a personal practice instrument?  Do you want to do recordings of the piano?  Do you teach piano?  Do you want to have musical friends over at your home to do ensemble music?  Do you need to play piano while some other disruptive activity takes place: such as someone wants to use the TV, someone needs to prepare food in the kitchen, etc.

Think of the situations when you want to play the piano, and it will help you decide where to put it. 

[ted]

If possible, to minimise damp getting to the instrument, try to avoid placing it near an outside wall. Apart from that just carefully consider quantum's questions and the answer shouldn't be hard to find.

[quantum]

A few more ideas.

Living room:
Larger space means the sound has more opportunity to bloom and resonate.  It gives more space to accommodate groups of musicians.  It also provides a good space to entertain guests with piano music.  If the living room is open to the rest of the home, it also means piano playing is more likely to be disrupted by other daily activities.  Things like recording or teaching lessons might be impacted by disruptions.

Dedicated room:
A room that you can specifically design for piano playing.  You have the opportunity to do acoustic treatment.  Great for recording as the sound is more controlled. Provides a focused space for teaching piano.  Provides a focused space for practice that does not interfere with other people going about daily activities.  You have an opportunity to create an environmentally controlled room that is optimal for piano health.  Less space for accommodating other musicians.  Might not be optimal for listener seating if you like to have home recitals.  You could put book shelving in such a room, so I would not worry too much about it being a single function room.

Home office/library piano room:
It's a good room if you need to use the piano along with other computer equipment in your office - for example streaming piano videos.  It's close to your library, so books and scores at near to access.  Probably not the best situation if one person needs to play piano and another person needs to use the office to do unrelated tasks such as answering phone calls or video conferencing.  Might not be optimal if you like entertaining with the piano or having other musicians join you. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Option 1 - living room.
* pro: larger room
* con: too much echo from all the stuff in living room

It's a lack of "stuff" in an empty room which causes echo though.

[julytwenty]

Everyone, thank you for the great inputs.

Speaking of purposes.
1. Recording (for keeping journal of study, improvisation, composition and competitions)
2. Practicing (at least 3 hours daily, possibly starting as early as 5:30am or as late as 9:00 pm)
3. Home concert (this is the least consideration at the moment due to covid)

I've read through everyone's suggestion and have better ideas now. Maybe a dedicated room with bookshelf and a chaise longue will be good. (less crowded than the NPR tiny desk concert settings)

@lostinidlewonder, we noticed the fuzzy vibration echo from things like lamp (metal parts) or window (glasses). Spoke to tuner, he suggests keep piano certain angle away from those items.

[quantum]

@lostinidlewonder, we noticed the fuzzy vibration echo from things like lamp (metal parts) or window (glasses). Spoke to tuner, he suggests keep piano certain angle away from those items.

That is more likely to be sympathetic vibration than echo.  It can happen in any size room.  Best thing to do is to adjust the offending item that is vibrating, such as the said lamp. 

[lostinidlewonder]

That is more likely to be sympathetic vibration than echo.  It can happen in any size room.  Best thing to do is to adjust the offending item that is vibrating, such as the said lamp.

Thanks quantum.

A larger room is better for a grand especially when you open it up. Grands can easily become too noisy in smaller rooms and the lid needs to be closed and you may even need to cover the piano while playing. It is nice to play for others with the grand opened up and have a room that is large enough to deal with the big sounds that come out of it. Many people have grands in rooms that are far too small, the grand just becomes more of a decorative piece than something that improves the sound in the room you are playing in. One of my students has a 7'4" grand in a small room and it's bloody noisy, not good at all, we put large pieces of felt inside the piano to dampen it but it's still bloody loud lol.

[quantum]

A larger room is better for a grand especially when you open it up. Grands can easily become too noisy in smaller rooms and the lid needs to be closed and you may even need to cover the piano while playing. It is nice to play for others with the grand opened up and have a room that is large enough to deal with the big sounds that come out of it. Many people have grands in rooms that are far too small, the grand just becomes more of a decorative piece than something that improves the sound in the room you are playing in. One of my students has a 7'4" grand in a small room and it's bloody noisy, not good at all, we put large pieces of felt inside the piano to dampen it but it's still bloody loud lol.

Yes, a larger room will allow the sound waves to more fully propagate.  It also allows one to place microphones further back from the piano. 

Then again, some people seem to have a big piano working in a small room.  Josh Wright's studio has two grands in it, one of them a 9 foot concert grand.  From his videos, it seems like the room is somewhere in the range of a large bedroom in size. He also likes to play with lids fully open. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Then again, some people seem to have a big piano working in a small room.  Josh Wright's studio has two grands in it, one of them a 9 foot concert grand.  From his videos, it seems like the room is somewhere in the range of a large bedroom in size. He also likes to play with lids fully open.

Urg I bet it would sound very loud in person, you can do all sorts of tricks with recordings. A few years ago I was interested in a 9ft Steinway and visited the dealer, he had it next to his bed!! lol. It was ridiculously loud in his small bedroom even with it all closed up. If you always play very quiet music I guess it doesn't matter if a grand piano is in a small room but it feels such a shame when you have to restrain from the fortes because they become harsh and noisy.

I have noticed this is a problem with some students of mine who have performed on larger stages for the first time. Some of my students practice on pianos which are in very small rooms so they never really understand what it is like to project the sound into larger rooms. There is more room to move, your volume levels do not need to be so subtle as you need to do it in enclosed spaces. Because of this when they play on stage for the first time sound too quiet because they can hear the piano in front of them but are unaware of how it is projecting beyond the space immediately infront of them. It is always advantageous then to have a grand piano in a larger space so you can experience over time how its sound projects through the space and not treat the piano merely as a speaker infront of you but rather an entity which surrounds the air around you.

[quantum]

I have noticed this is a problem with some students of mine who have performed on larger stages for the first time. Some of my students practice on pianos which are in very small rooms so they never really understand what it is like to project the sound into larger rooms. There is more room to move, your volume levels do not need to be so subtle as you need to do it in enclosed spaces. Because of this when they play on stage for the first time sound too quiet because they can hear the piano in front of them but are unaware of how it is projecting beyond the space immediately infront of them. It is always advantageous then to have a grand piano in a larger space so you can experience over time how its sound projects through the space and not treat the piano merely as a speaker infront of you but rather an entity which surrounds the air around you.

Excellent point.

One needs to develop an understanding of acoustics in different size spaces, and that the interpretation of a piece one develops at home in a small room acoustic is not necessarily the same interpretation one delivers in a large acoustic for a live audience. 

[jimf12]

I have an upright in the living room.    It's a pretty open room, hardwood floors, and I do have it placed near an inside wall but that's just because where it looked/sounded best.   My house was constructed in 1990's, and most modern homes with reasonable insulation probably make the "inside vs outside wall" argument kind of moot.   I would definitely first check to make sure any placement in those rooms didn't have a major issue - near a draft, in direct sunlight, over a heat duct etc...   

Other than that I think you need to decide how the piano will be used.   If you regularly are going to have parties and such with people over, then the living room would probably be best for your audience. 

After those considerations, I would decide based on acoustics.   I'm confused by your statement about echo in the living room, as mentioned if you have "stuff" in it that will help subdue the echo.   In general more space has the opportunity for better overall acoustics.   Your mileage will vary though, and don't be so set on where you put the piano.   I mentioned earlier that mine is on an inside wall, I moved it from an outside wall because 1) it did look better which got me thinking in the first place and 2) it sounded better.   It sounded even better when I moved it again from about 2" from the wall to about 8", and moved it 6" further away from a corner and put some sound panels in that corner.   It's amazing the difference small changes in placement can make.    I have an institutional piano with big casters and super easy to move around on hardwood, so I can make those types of adjustments.   

Based on very little info that you gave I'm going to say living room because of the size.   Echo can usually be dealt with pretty easily with carpets, drapes, panels etc..   

Good luck.   

[anacrusis]

It's important to be able to soundproof and dampen the sound in the room you use. Pianos are capable of producing sound levels that are dangerous to your hearing long-term if you don't take precautions.

[dogperson]

It's important to be able to soundproof and dampen the sound in the room you use. Pianos are capable of producing sound levels that are dangerous to your hearing long-term if you don't take precautions.

I did not need to actually soundproof my piano room,  snd I know of many pianists who have not needed it, either.  For me, soft furnishing did the trick:  a thick tug pad underneath a large rug,  chairs, pillows, drapes.  Experiment to see what your actual room needs.

[anacrusis]

I did not need to actually soundproof my piano room,  snd I know of many pianists who have not needed it, either.  For me, soft furnishing did the trick:  a thick tug pad underneath a large rug,  chairs, pillows, drapes.  Experiment to see what your actual room needs.

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. With soundproof I mean = getting rugs and drapes and stuff like that, not necessarily professional soundproofing Anything to dampen the sound and preventing it from bouncing around the room.

I once used a decibel meter to measure what sounds levels my baby grand produced at home. With a closed lid I could still push peaks to 90-100 dB without too much effort. For reference, sounds below 70 dB are generally safe. Anything over 85 dB can lead to damage over time - the higher the dB, the shorter the "safe" time for sustained noise. I have since covered the grand with a blanket and that has helped. It feels a bit sad to not be able to produce glorious, loud sounds but it's better for my hearing. I have some tinnitus already.

[victor66]

I once used a decibel meter to measure what sounds levels my baby grand produced at home. With a closed lid I could still push peaks to 90-100 dB without too much effort. For reference, sounds below 70 dB are generally safe.

The NIOSH Recommended Exposure Limit (REL) for occupational noise exposure is 85 decibels, A-weighted, as an 8-hour time-weighted average (85 dBA as an 8-hr TWA) using a 3-dB exchange rate. Exposures at or above this level are considered hazardous.

Now 85 dBA here doesn't mean 85 dB at peak. It's a total exposure, which is averaged over time, and "occupational" means 5 days a week every week. You don't play ff all the time, and I don't think you practice 8 hours a day (I certainly don't). Of course we are all different, and my ears do start ringing when I play ff for some time even with a closed lid. They didn't when I was young, and they may ring now without piano too Is it hazardous? Maybe. Also DB meters (well, expensive ones) have "fast" and "slow" mode. You need "slow" mode to average (usually over 3 sec).

[quantum]

Now 85 dBA here doesn't mean 85 dB at peak. It's a total exposure, which is averaged over time, and "occupational" means 5 days a week every week. You don't play ff all the time, and I don't think you practice 8 hours a day (I certainly don't). Of course we are all different, and my ears do start ringing when I play ff for some time even with a closed lid. They didn't when I was young, and they may ring now without piano too Is it hazardous? Maybe. Also DB meters (well, expensive ones) have "fast" and "slow" mode. You need "slow" mode to average (usually over 3 sec).

Good point.  Investing in a good acoustic piano then muffling it up seems counterproductive to me.  The primary function of a piano is to produce sound.  Treating the room so the piano produces a beautiful balanced sound is where the focus needs to be, things like addressing unwanted resonances and comb filtering.

Part of the beauty of playing with a fully open lid is not that you can play loud, rather that you develop the ability to control soft sounds.  Keeping the lid open allow harmonics to speak freely into the room, adding richness and complexity to the tone, these harmonics are attenuated when one closes the lid. 

If one is concerned about hearing safety, there are other daily activities that one could address first.  When using loud appliances such as vacuum cleaners, lawnmowers, etc. one could use hearing protection. 

[jimf12]

It's important to be able to soundproof and dampen the sound in the room you use. Pianos are capable of producing sound levels that are dangerous to your hearing long-term if you don't take precautions.

Even smaller acoustics.   Mine is a 46" Kawai, and it has plenty of sound.   If you read online about the dB of a piano, an often cited number is that piano practice is typically between 60-70dB.   I honestly think that someone at some point in time wrote those numbers down, and everyone in the world has just taken it for granted and republished it without checking.   There is no way a typical acoustic piano is sitting at 60-70 dB.    I've measured mine, and just playing normally (mf) easily in the 80's.   And if I ff it, 92 or so.    I get in the low 60's to mid 60s on the pp passages.   

I am 58 yo with a bit of tinnitus in one ear, so I try to be careful.   I have an app where it you hit record and it will then track your daily dosage.   If I'm working on something loud, I'll use that app and check it to make sure I'm not overdoing it.    But I'm pretty sure I could if I wasn't careful.  If I spent all day working on some loud stuff and not paying attention, I don't doubt that I could get into the unsafe zone.

If I ever got a 6' grand in this room I would have to do some more room prepping.   

[victor66]

If you read online about the dB of a piano, an often cited number is that piano practice is typically between 60-70dB.

Yeah, that sounds totally wrong. I used a cheap sound meter BAFX3370 (so take it with a grain of salt), which I used to calibrate REW app at 1kHz, which in turn I used to measure an equivalent dose with a calibrated mic. So playing in the range of p-f with a closed lid gives me ~82dB (give or take), after opening the lid it goes up to ~85dB. If I start pounding hard it easily goes up to ~90dB and further. But still, according to NIOSH even 88dB gives me ~4 hours a day without any serious damage (each +3dB cuts time approximately in half, for an average guy of course). I have Yamaha 5'8", but with a foam under the belly to cut hardwood floor reflections. Anyway, it's not even close to 60-70dB, yet within NIOSH limits. So when I want to enjoy my playing I'm opening the lid, at least partially, but when I practice, especially something like scales, I keep the lid closed.

[lelle]

Yeah, that sounds totally wrong. I used a cheap sound meter BAFX3370 (so take it with a grain of salt), which I used to calibrate REW app at 1kHz, which in turn I used to measure an equivalent dose with a calibrated mic. So playing in the range of p-f with a closed lid gives me ~82dB (give or take), after opening the lid it goes up to ~85dB. If I start pounding hard it easily goes up to ~90dB and further. But still, according to NIOSH even 88dB gives me ~4 hours a day without any serious damage (each +3dB cuts time approximately in half, for an average guy of course). I have Yamaha 5'8", but with a foam under the belly to cut hardwood floor reflections. Anyway, it's not even close to 60-70dB, yet within NIOSH limits. So when I want to enjoy my playing I'm opening the lid, at least partially, but when I practice, especially something like scales, I keep the lid closed.

Yeah 60-70dB sounds wrong. Our upright at home is in the 75-85dB range.