What do you do when you feel you suck at the piano?

[lostinidlewonder]

I do believe my basic technique is at fault. But the problem is that it looks like the only way to achieve basic technique properly is to start with a very good teacher at a very young age and play La Campanella at 12.

Heck I played piano some 12 years before I tried La Campanella so I was 3 years late. I think people underestimate the amount of years spent practicing at a lower levels, we see too many videos and recordings of virtuosos these days and it can tend to make one impatient.

[martinn]

Heck I played piano some 12 years before I tried La Campanella so I was 3 years late. I think people underestimate the amount of years spent practicing at a lower levels, we see too many videos and recordings of virtuosos these days and it can tend to make one impatient.

It’s great to hear good advice, about your own level and not staring at the top.
Myself, I have my journey and want to see where I can go, and I certainly don’t
want to be pushed down by somebody and get overly conscious over that I am not or
never will be a virtuoso.

[ranjit]

Haha.  Somehow I believe you might be kidding here - at least for your second sentence.   

No, I am quite serious. If you can master basic technique perfectly, then there's nothing much that prevents you from playing almost anything to a certain level, because pretty much everything is based on an increasingly refined understanding of principles such as stability, alignment, reinforcement of weaker fingers, finger strength, weight transfer, etc. Even when playing fast, the question is how to get that exact balance where the center of the hand and associated apparatus is in the exact spot and situation which causes it to produce a sound at the required volume. (Not all of this is done consciously, but I'm trying to describe something like riding a bicycle in words.)

Most concert pianists seem to get to this stage by the time they are in their early teens. Lostinidlewonder seems to have gotten there late  . But the point still stands. It's what I believe Ashkenazy or some famous concert pianist was talking about when they said that you must have a solid technique by 14-15, or else you will always have a "technical accent" of sorts. It is that kind of basic necessary foundation.

Oh and to clarify: The context is that I'm unable to play difficult repertoire properly, to which the response was that my basics are probably lacking. And basically, yes, I'm still working on playing scales well without any unnecessary accents and such. But the only people are consistently able to get basic technique right, in my experience, are those who started early with good teachers. And even if they can't play La Campanella, they are able to play something like the Winterwind etude technically sound at 12 or so.

[frodo1]

No, I am quite serious. If you can master basic technique perfectly, then there's nothing much that prevents you from playing almost anything to a certain level, because pretty much everything is based on an increasingly refined understanding of principles such as stability, alignment, reinforcement of weaker fingers, finger strength, weight transfer, etc. Even when playing fast, the question is how to get that exact balance where the center of the hand and associated apparatus is in the exact spot and situation which causes it to produce a sound at the required volume. (Not all of this is done consciously, but I'm trying to describe something like riding a bicycle in words.)

Most concert pianists seem to get to this stage by the time they are in their early teens. Lostinidlewonder seems to have gotten there late  . But the point still stands. It's what I believe Ashkenazy or some famous concert pianist was talking about when they said that you must have a solid technique by 14-15, or else you will always have a "technical accent" of sorts. It is that kind of basic necessary foundation.

Oh and to clarify: The context is that I'm unable to play difficult repertoire properly, to which the response was that my basics are probably lacking. And basically, yes, I'm still working on playing scales well without any unnecessary accents and such. But the only people are consistently able to get basic technique right, in my experience, are those who started early with good teachers. And even if they can't play La Campanella, they are able to play something like the Winterwind etude technically sound at 12 or so.

I guess my final thoughts were not quite final.  However, I’m not sure if am able to help you.  I do have a few questions though.

You say: “The context is that I'm unable to play difficult repertoire properly, to which the response was that my basics are probably lacking.”

What made me think you had a possible problem with your basic technique was your statement: “I feel like I cannot play even the simplest pieces 'well enough' and it seems like most elementary school kids who have had proper piano instruction are better than me in that respect.”  It was not that you are unable to play difficult repertoire properly.  It’s that you are unable to play the simplest pieces properly.

You say “I can't call myself a beginner because I can play a Chopin etude, and I can't consider myself an advanced student because I can't play a damn Czerny study well enough.”  Just to make sure I understand, what level of Czerny exercises are we talking about?  Level 5-6?  Can you reliably play level 3 Czerny exercises with a good sound at a good tempo?

You say “I'm still working on playing scales well without any unnecessary accents and such.”  This tells me a lot here.  Are we talking 4-octave, 16th note, 2 handed scales played at 100 BPM?  Can you play a single- handed 16th note scale at 80 BPM without any unwanted accents?

I’m not talking about you playing Winterwind etude technically sound.  I’m talking about playing level 5-6 Czerny and scales at a good but comfortable tempo with a reliably good sound.  I am convinced you can learn to do this, regardless of your age.  You can learn to improve your technique with proper help.  If you think otherwise – are you then agreeing with Pianodannn??

Again, I ask the following (unless you would rather not answer):
Have you read Murray McLachlan’s book "Foundations of Technique"? Klavieronin suggested some books.  Did you look at these?  Is it possible to see a top piano teacher from a conservatory for an evaluation of your technique and a few lessons?  Can your current teacher suggest someone?

Additional questions:  What have your current or past teachers said about your technique?  What books have you studied on technique?

[frodo1]

Or another way to approach this:

So, you have some imperfections in sound.  I have a CD on a reputable label of a harpsichordist playing Scarlatti sonatas.  He had a long career as a touring performer and was about age 60 when he recorded them.  On a few sonatas, you can hear him struggling and the sound was very uneven in several spots.  But he kept up with a steady beat and hit all the notes.  I’m sure these imperfections were due to his technique. You can say these imperfections added character to the performance.  Of course, Scott Ross played through these sections as if they were as easy as level 1 pieces.  And he probably spent at most 2 or 3 days learning each sonata.  He recorded all 555 in about 2 years and his technique was unsurpassed.

Instead of trying to remove the imperfections, give the best performance you can with them! 

[lostinidlewonder]

Most concert pianists seem to get to this stage by the time they are in their early teens. Lostinidlewonder seems to have gotten there late  . But the point still stands. It's what I believe Ashkenazy or some famous concert pianist was talking about when they said that you must have a solid technique by 14-15, or else you will always have a "technical accent" of sorts. It is that kind of basic necessary foundation.

I don't think that there really is a rule of thumb when it comes to ones progress. I wasn't aware of a number of Liszt Etudes until I was some 8 years into my piano studies when I hear a concert pianist play in a live concert and was gifted some cassette tapes. Then it took several years later before I found the sheet music. Back then the internet was in its infancy and really finding sheet music wasn't that easy still unless you studied at a music unversity. Today you have access to all sheets recordings and videos. I grew up before the internet was common in peoples home.

I learned a great deal of other works and built up my skills so the idea of virtuosic music never crossed my mind. My parents did own a cassette of Chopin etudes and was astounded by it but I never could find the sheets until many years later when I was in my later teens. I would listen to them a lot and try to play it by ear but never obsessed about getting to that level immediately because I was busy doing a lot of other easier works successfully and which gave me a lot of joy. I learned a lot of Beethoven sonatas and the Bach WTC from around the age of 10 (my teacher gifted me the books and I never have felt such excitement for music sheet ever since the internet) but never thought that this is grade x or whatever and my teacher never put barriers before me telling me what level they were. There seems to be some kind of level awareness nowadays, Oh this piece is hard or this piece is super hard etc etc. I think this puts barriers infront of people and can also make you think less of your own journey especially if you are constantly thinking you need to get to some kind of level. I remember learning Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit when I was in my teens and a number of his other works which are considered difficult but I had no concept of it being difficult, I just worked with it, I was rather amused in my 20s when on the internet I noticed people constantly saying it was considered a difficult work. I wonder how much it would have put unecessary barriers before me if I read all that as a teen.

I attended a number of master classes by Ashkenazi and personally didn't really think much about him as a teacher lol. When I studied with Roger Woodward I noticed how much work top class pianists put into their studies, I really didn't care for that after being exposed to it for a number of years (in fact it made me hate piano at one point!), I noticed Woodward had physical ailments due to so much sitting at the piano over the decades which he expressed to me.

I was astounded that the concerts I did at the same halls Woodward perfomed in sold more tickets, someone who is far beyond my technical capability sold less than me. It is all in the business skills. Laymen really don't care if you play extremely good or super difficult virtuosic music in concert, in fact they don't like it that much in Australia. I think sometimes we forget when perfoming piano in public we are not playing for a hall of piano teachers and academics, we can easily lose touch about what music is about for "normal" people as solo performers.

But this thread is not about professional performance but more about personal development in piano. I think to utterly master a piece takes years, you can hear the fake mastery of clever students who play note perfect and tread the expressive line but there is no REAL mastery in their playing. They sound like a clone there is no personality in their playing. So why not mull over a piece for years and years while learning more works theres nothing wrong with that. If you are a serious pianist you will build your base skills strongly and that doesn't require ultra difficult works. Even today I don't tend to play super virtuosic music, I already know I can achieve them but my interest rests elsewhere and it isn't all tough music. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy playing some difficult pieces here and there but it doesn't take over my life. I have nothing to prove!

It seems though today with the internet people accelerate their learning rate, especially those who self learn. Then you meet a teacher for the first time and they think you are at a certain standard because you play impressive works but really they don't realise the stuggle you went through to get it. They don't realize that you only JUST can manage it all, its all held together with weak glue. So they continue to over extend you and you start to feel like you are hitting all these barriers which are just not going away.

I know a little bit about ranjit's piano playing and the way he thinks at the piano and I feel he is being overly tough on himself. That is just how he works, he pushes himself and I think it is a good attitude. We have to be wary not to be impatient though! And ranjit you've only been at this for a little while in reality and already come so far, much more so than the average person. So just relax and build your skills up in areas where you are challenged but are able to conquer the challenges without too much hassle. I don't think you are stuck just yet since you are constantly improving every time I hear you.

[frodo1]

I know a little bit about ranjit's piano playing and the way he thinks at the piano and I feel he is being overly tough on himself. That is just how he works, he pushes himself and I think it is a good attitude. We have to be wary not to be impatient though! And ranjit you've only been at this for a little while in reality and already come so far, much more so than the average person. So just relax and build your skills up in areas where you are challenged but are able to conquer the challenges without too much hassle. I don't think you are stuck just yet since you are constantly improving every time I hear you.

Good to know and great advice!

[lostinidlewonder]

It’s great to hear good advice, about your own level and not staring at the top.
Myself, I have my journey and want to see where I can go, and I certainly don’t
want to be pushed down by somebody and get overly conscious over that I am not or
never will be a virtuoso.

I began learning piano at 3 but my aim was never to do piano for a living, that came much later on when I met Roger Woodward in my late teens who I studied with and eventually left my Computer Science/Engineering degree. So my background as a professional musician is unorthodoxed, I was not pushed by parents to become a concert pianist or specifically nurtured to expand my piano skills as efficiently as possible.

My earlier study with piano was very relaxed, it was a friend to me not something I had to conquer or keep up with others with. Piano has always been a part of my life and not seen as a tool to compete or compare, that I think is missing in many peoples journey. Piano is not just their friend, it is a device to compare themselves with their fellow humans. I learned predominantly by ear for my first few years, copying my fathers playing (and he still plays very well today even though he hardly plays anymore!) copying what I hear from the few piano recordings we had, learning from the few music books we had. Every year a new book would be added but it was such a rare occurance but the new music was so fun to learn from. When I was around 6 years old we bought a Commodore 64 which had a music program on it THE MUSIC SHOP. There I experimented with writing music and playing the many tunes on there which I enjoyed. When I was around 10 we got a PC and I could experiment with midi, and then when I was around 13 we got the internet and I could look at hundreds of midi piano pieces! I also learned other instruments too, the flute and recorder(which everyone had to do in primary school, I actually did it at quite a high level and entered many competitions which I won 99% of them lol even the adult competitions)

Today the internet is just an enormous library of sheet music, recordings and videos. It is utterly overwhelming. I think if that happened to me as a child my journey would have been confused and demented without a good teacher.

[ranjit]

You say “I can't call myself a beginner because I can play a Chopin etude, and I can't consider myself an advanced student because I can't play a damn Czerny study well enough.”  Just to make sure I understand, what level of Czerny exercises are we talking about?  Level 5-6?  Can you reliably play level 3 Czerny exercises with a good sound at a good tempo?

It's not about the level, it's about the technique required and the consistency. I looked for videos online on Czerny etudes, and found this one. I'm not talking about the tempo, you can look at the slow version, not the fast one.

Nothing special about this particular video, but just notice how the person playing it is completely in control. There aren't any unnecessary accents or hesitations. There is a certain consistency in touch because the person knows what exact hand movements they are using (for example, for the left hand jumps), and consistently using those for the sequences in a very reliable way. The fourth finger is never weak or unsupported (something I struggle with). And there is absolutely no room for hesitation. And this is the kind of consistency I see so many kids achieving, which I haven't been able to do starting as an adult and which makes me wonder whether it is the fact that I'm an adult which is limiting me from developing that.

Can you play a single- handed 16th note scale at 80 BPM without any unwanted accents?

Again, with reference to say the video above as a standard for consistency, no.

If you think otherwise – are you then agreeing with Pianodannn??

I don't know if I agree with pianodann. I have to concede that there probably are certain inherent (genetic/early environmental) limitations to technical facility, but I do not wish to think about it in that fashion.

Have you read Murray McLachlan’s book "Foundations of Technique"?

Not that particular book, but I have read quite a few books and watched a lot of videos which I think are more helpful. There are some concert pianists online who give very good advice over on YouTube and I've watched most of them. They explain similar principles, but video demonstration is better than text.

Is it possible to see a top piano teacher from a conservatory for an evaluation of your technique and a few lessons?
Additional questions:  What have your current or past teachers said about your technique?

They have said that certain things (such as with reference to specific techniques) that I have been able to do were very unusual given my background. But that I simply lacked the basic foundation which provides a solid, reliable sound and that it may or may not be possible to develop that at my age, often that they personally didn't know a single person who was able to learn it as an adult student.

[ranjit]

I learned a lot of Beethoven sonatas and the Bach WTC from around the age of 10 (my teacher gifted me the books and I never have felt such excitement for music sheet ever since the internet) but never thought that this is grade x or whatever and my teacher never put barriers before me telling me what level they were. There seems to be some kind of level awareness nowadays, Oh this piece is hard or this piece is super hard etc etc. I think this puts barriers infront of people and can also make you think less of your own journey especially if you are constantly thinking you need to get to some kind of level. I remember learning Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit when I was in my teens and a number of his other works which are considered difficult but I had no concept of it being difficult, I just worked with it, I was rather amused in my 20s when on the internet I noticed people constantly saying it was considered a difficult work. I wonder how much it would have put unecessary barriers before me if I read all that as a teen.

It seems though today with the internet people accelerate their learning rate, especially those who self learn. Then you meet a teacher for the first time and they think you are at a certain standard because you play impressive works but really they don't realise the stuggle you went through to get it. They don't realize that you only JUST can manage it all, its all held together with weak glue. So they continue to over extend you and you start to feel like you are hitting all these barriers which are just not going away.

When I started playing the piano, I actually did not have a peer group or think too highly of level ratings. I thought the initial grades seemed too easy and was skeptical. I just picked up pieces I liked and learned them, incorporating my own idiosyncratic idea of musicality irrespective of supposed difficulty. I would just figure out the individual hands, how to coordinate them, and somehow just "do it". It was only much later that I realized that I could only "half-play" most things, and that this was because I had just taught myself random pieces because they seemed doable. So my case in a way is a counterpoint to yours in which a lack of level awareness did cause some issues which needed to be resolved.

[lostinidlewonder]

The Czerny video I think has superflous movements, it's fine for some but just not necessary.

When I started playing the piano, I actually did not have a peer group or think too highly of level ratings. I thought the initial grades seemed too easy and was skeptical. I just picked up pieces I liked and learned them, incorporating my own idiosyncratic idea of musicality irrespective of supposed difficulty. I would just figure out the individual hands, how to coordinate them, and somehow just "do it". It was only much later that I realized that I could only "half-play" most things, and that this was because I had just taught myself random pieces because they seemed doable. So my case in a way is a counterpoint to yours in which a lack of level awareness did cause some issues which needed to be resolved.

You grew up in the information age with the internet surrounding you so it is quite difficult not to be influenced, access to all levels makes it easy to overextend. It is hard to really explain what it was like to learn before the explosion of the internet information age, it was much slower, gradual, you didn't feel in such a rush.

I think it is the ideology that it is TOO EASY can be problematic especially with the points where we "dont know we don't know" and of course with easier works you probably measured the difficult merely in "are you able to get the notes under your hand". Think of it like walking, most people can walk quite well, it's not that difficult if you are able bodied, but can you walk as stylishly as say a model? Or if you think of gymnastics, you might think doing a hand stand or rolly polly is stupidly easy but when a pro does it you really can a difference. Piano is no different, you can have easy works and people can control it but there is a level of expertise that is noticable if you really crack it and do it as well as possible.

I also see the same function with virtuosic music, people can play the notes and impress, if they are all hit right and accurately, but where is the soul and musical emotion? They can follow some ideology of what is right but merely sound like some clever parrot, they have no real musical language that they are fluent with, they merely recite what they have practiced.

Of course you can go so easy that it is utterly irrelevant, you wouldn't focus on learn 5 finger position pieces or kindergarten pieces lol (unless we are developing sight reading but that's a different issue). Surely you can play works which you are satisfied with and feel complete control? Surely you notice the point when this becomes blurred? It is about choosing the correct repertoire to build from and this takes years of effort. There are no short cuts, those who take short cuts usually are clever parrots but scratch that surface and you don't see someone who understand the musical language nor someone who naturally understands what the hands should be doing.

Also I think you need to sincerely enjoy simpler works more so than be draw towards such things as Cziffra or complicated arrangements. This is critical at the earlier levels I feel, you want to be able to do things "perfectly" and understand it in an intrinsic manner, not something that is labored on for extended periods of dissatisfaction.

Everyone is different in the way they learn too, I have taught hundreds of people over the years. Some play very precise from the get go and build appropriately, some play very haphazzardly and it takes years for them to generate control and coordination etc etc. You should be aware that it is your OWN two hands and your own MIND that you are dealing with, there is no book written specifically for you, no course made specifcally for you, you are unique in your development. No 2 people I have taught could I say are identical.

[frodo1]

It's not about the level, it's about the technique required and the consistency. I looked for videos online on Czerny etudes, and found this one. I'm not talking about the tempo, you can look at the slow version, not the fast one.

Nothing special about this particular video, but just notice how the person playing it is completely in control. There aren't any unnecessary accents or hesitations. There is a certain consistency in touch because the person knows what exact hand movements they are using (for example, for the left hand jumps), and consistently using those for the sequences in a very reliable way. The fourth finger is never weak or unsupported (something I struggle with). And there is absolutely no room for hesitation. And this is the kind of consistency I see so many kids achieving, which I haven't been able to do starting as an adult and which makes me wonder whether it is the fact that I'm an adult which is limiting me from developing that.
Again, with reference to say the video above as a standard for consistency, no.
I don't know if I agree with pianodann. I have to concede that there probably are certain inherent (genetic/early environmental) limitations to technical facility, but I do not wish to think about it in that fashion.
Not that particular book, but I have read quite a few books and watched a lot of videos which I think are more helpful. There are some concert pianists online who give very good advice over on YouTube and I've watched most of them. They explain similar principles, but video demonstration is better than text.
They have said that certain things (such as with reference to specific techniques) that I have been able to do were very unusual given my background. But that I simply lacked the basic foundation which provides a solid, reliable sound and that it may or may not be possible to develop that at my age, often that they personally didn't know a single person who was able to learn it as an adult student.

When I listened to this recording just now (slow and fast versions), I thought it was you playing. Then I read your post.  This person does a nice job.  Starting as an adult does make things harder, no doubt.  The main thing of course is YOUR enjoyment.  There is no other reason for you to be practicing since you will not earn your living from piano.  Lostinidlewonder said “So just relax and build your skills up in areas where you are challenged but are able to conquer the challenges without too much hassle.”  This could be your best advice.  I had also suggested that you consider accepting your imperfections and play your best with them – the imperfections remaining after you are able to conquer some “without too much hassle”, that is.  You could take a shot at the Murray McLachlan book – it is easy to read and only has about 100 pages.  I think the first 20-30 pages is all you need to read.  If the ideas in book come easy without too much hassle – great.  It might be worth a try.  Chapter 3 has most of the important items for very basic technique.

[lostinidlewonder]

Frodo1 think you extracted one of the more important axioms of studying anything. To challenge yourself but still notice consistent improvement. It is a loaded answer though because consistently finding the appropriate resource is tricky and even more so with art subjects. As a teacher it is constantly on my mind even away from lessons when I'm thinking about my students. I might see/hear a certain piece and I'm thinking it's perfect for this or that student or perhaps it is a good choice for them in the future or some food for revision etc. As a teacher for some 27 years it still challenges me to find the best path for a given student and even I miss the mark now and then too, of course it would be trickier for most of the students of piano to do it alone or even less experienced teachers.

[ranjit]

When I listened to this recording just now (slow and fast versions), I thought it was you playing. Then I read your post.  This person does a nice job.  Starting as an adult does make things harder, no doubt.  The main thing of course is YOUR enjoyment.  There is no other reason for you to be practicing since you will not earn your living from piano.  Lostinidlewonder said “So just relax and build your skills up in areas where you are challenged but are able to conquer the challenges without too much hassle.”  This could be your best advice.  I had also suggested that you consider accepting your imperfections and play your best with them – the imperfections remaining after you are able to conquer some “without too much hassle”, that is.  You could take a shot at the Murray McLachlan book – it is easy to read and only has about 100 pages.  I think the first 20-30 pages is all you need to read.  If the ideas in book come easy without too much hassle – great.  It might be worth a try.  Chapter 3 has most of the important items for very basic technique.

I have posted several recordings on this site. You can take a look at this, which was my playing around 9 months ago. I have improved since then, but the same issues persist.

There is no reason for practicing since you will not be earning your living from the piano. -- Well that's the stinger, I very much would like to, if I could.

[perfect_pitch]

I thought I would weigh in as this has been a touchy subject for me personally, but I'm hoping I can inspire some people.

I was taught by morons for the first few years of my life. I went to Yamaha school of music in Perth, and had the knack for picking music up very quickly, and even by ear without trying - but never had a single teacher to keep me in line in regards to posture, curved fingers at the piano (I used to play with flat fingers; like Horowitz), the importance of proper articulation, and not one teacher showed me or stressed the importance of practicing in sections and actively practicing to eradicate mistakes. They let me play hard pieces - moderately fluent and rehearsed, but they were not refined in anyway.

This continued through to High school where I was approaching Grade 7 & 8 pieces and without my knowledge - playing them a little hap-hazardly. I had a can-do attitude though, and determination and that's what got me through. I seemingly managed to get an A+ through the Guild Music program for Grade 8 (an achievement that I am now ashamed off, given how poor their marking system is). Let me explain...

Having come off this high of getting an A+, I used those pieces to get into University and continued practicing them for a little while in my first few weeks of Semester 1, and during those lessons - I had a very lovely critique who would very succinctly and clearly tell me what I was doing wrong. The reason I would call her a critique and NOT a piano teacher is that she had no problem telling me what I was doing incorrectly, but couldn't teach me how to do it properly. I continued on and went through University and in my last year sat my LMusA through the AMEB with a new teacher.

I failed it... and I was devastated... but I was also pissed off. I 'suspect' that my new teacher allowed me to fail so that I wouldn't see her criticism as being unjustly unfair, but needed an outside moderator to also drive the point home. 

I took that determination to better myself and attempted to do it the following year, however my teacher calmly explained that while my technique was getting better, I wasn't ready to sit it. I scrapped that repertoire and in 2008, I sat the LMusA for the second time and passed. I attempted to sit my FMusA in 2010 while I was unemployed, but in my desperate need for employment during that year, I took on more work and my practice suffered before the exam, and I failed.

This was the 2nd time I felt a little like giving up... but I persevered. I got away from the examination system and spent my time just working on various pieces for fun. I also got into arrangements which I sell on iTunes and Musicnotes. I've made a good chunk of money from my hard work, and while that may not have gotten me any educational merit, it was allowed me to demonstrate and work on my technique through my arrangements, which are on my YouTube channel.

Now, I am looking through the music of Rachmaninoff's 3rd, as this is the pinnacle of piano, a goal I want to reach... but finally after over 25 years of playing, and over 10 years of teaching - I've developed great ways to practice the piece that I wouldn't have done 10 years ago when sitting my FMusA.

Perseverance is the key. A love for music will drive you take these blows and to shrug them off. I believe we are all capable of progression at the piano; yes, some will progress faster than others and some will progress very slowly... but piano is a lifelong pursuit that can bring you happiness. Take the criticism and use it to drive you forward and overcome these obstacles.

It's worth it. I wish I had been a wunderkind at the piano in my teen years, but my perseverance is starting to help me achieve what they do; albeit a bit later... but is helping me to achieve what they can... just at an older age than what I wished.

[frodo1]

I have posted several recordings on this site. You can take a look at this, which was my playing around 9 months ago. I have improved since then, but the same issues persist.

There is no reason for practicing since you will not be earning your living from the piano. -- Well that's the stinger, I very much would like to, if I could.

Thanks for sharing this.  I have to ask – why is this in portrait mode instead of landscape?  Not that it really matters.

You definitely are talented.  I have little doubt that you would sound like a professional pianist if you had the technique of a professional pianist.  I can smooth over the rough spots in my mind and the end result sounds great.

Here are my immediate thoughts after listening twice.  Why don’t you keep music in front of you while you play the B section of this piece?  Also, the B section and the coda fall apart in this recording.  I wonder: If you recorded the B section separately and had the music in front of you as you play - would it hold together much better? If the B section always sounds like this, even when playing by itself with music in front of you – then you are going to have to completely rethink how you practice this.  But I am guessing that this is not the case.

It's interesting – I often hear student performers nail the slower, easier parts but completely fall apart in the harder, fast sections.  But I also hear many with the exact opposite: the fast, difficult parts tend to move and stay together, but the slow, easier parts fall apart.

As far as making a living with music – I will say that is going to be a major challenge, especially with you starting at a late age. 

[ranjit]

Thanks for sharing this.  I have to ask – why is this in portrait mode instead of landscape?  Not that it really matters.

It's just the way my phone recorded it, it switches based on which side the phone thinks is downward.

You definitely are talented.  I have little doubt that you would sound like a professional pianist if you had the technique of a professional pianist.  I can smooth over the rough spots in my mind and the end result sounds great.

I'm glad to hear that.

Here are my immediate thoughts after listening twice.  Why don’t you keep music in front of you while you play the B section of this piece?  Also, the B section and the coda fall apart in this recording.  I wonder: If you recorded the B section separately and had the music in front of you as you play - would it hold together much better?

This is not a piece my teachers told me to play. I felt like I could do it, and taught myself. I wasn't super concerned about the middle section because it's not that hard. The recording is mainly about the main section here, the middle and the end are present so you get an idea of my musical direction, but I didn't spend time polishing those. Again, as several people had pointed out to me, this piece we simply beyond my level to play competently, and so I didn't work on polishing it. At this point with my teacher, I was working on very easy pieces to hopefully build a technical foundation. But you get the idea, I can similarly play other hard pieces such as etudes, but it's all "wrong".

As far as making a living with music – I will say that is going to be a major challenge, especially with you starting at a late age.

No doubt, and this undoubtedly effects how I view myself as a pianist. My teacher gives concerts although he is not a touring artist or something, he is well regarded by local pianists as a good teacher (I asked the graduate students at the nearby university). He studied at Eastman for his Masters and then also did a doctorate. He said that he had to be honest in saying that I would never become a concert pianist, and that while I was talented, I wasn't exceptionally talented like a Kissin or something, so the high end would be something I'm never likely to reach. And it's just small things which are the problem which I can't get consistent, like getting my damn fourth finger to sound right consistently. And I know that it's basically that technical foundation which every serious child gets which limits me. I think I have some good ideas of my own when it comes to musicality, and my ability to understand music theory is very good. I am very good at theoretical subjects such as math, and this is something my piano teacher pointed out to me as well -- that I  understand concepts on the first try but then expect to be able to use that to learn piano technique instantly which doesn't work.

[frodo1]

It's just the way my phone recorded it, it switches based on which side the phone thinks is downward.
I'm glad to hear that.
This is not a piece my teachers told me to play. I felt like I could do it, and taught myself. I wasn't super concerned about the middle section because it's not that hard. The recording is mainly about the main section here, the middle and the end are present so you get an idea of my musical direction, but I didn't spend time polishing those. Again, as several people had pointed out to me, this piece we simply beyond my level to play competently, and so I didn't work on polishing it. At this point with my teacher, I was working on very easy pieces to hopefully build a technical foundation. But you get the idea, I can similarly play other hard pieces such as etudes, but it's all "wrong".
No doubt, and this undoubtedly effects how I view myself as a pianist. My teacher gives concerts although he is not a touring artist or something, he is well regarded by local pianists as a good teacher (I asked the graduate students at the nearby university). He studied at Eastman for his Masters and then also did a doctorate. He said that he had to be honest in saying that I would never become a concert pianist, and that while I was talented, I wasn't exceptionally talented like a Kissin or something, so the high end would be something I'm never likely to reach. And it's just small things which are the problem which I can't get consistent, like getting my damn fourth finger to sound right consistently. And I know that it's basically that technical foundation which every serious child gets which limits me. I think I have some good ideas of my own when it comes to musicality, and my ability to understand music theory is very good. I am very good at theoretical subjects such as math, and this is something my piano teacher pointed out to me as well -- that I  understand concepts on the first try but then expect to be able to use that to learn piano technique instantly which doesn't work.

I suspected that you practiced 99% on the A section and 1% on the B section and coda. The risk of playing music that is too difficult:  You may see some immediate, impressive gains in terms of what you hear in the performance – but these are often dead-end gains.  They leave you in a position that any further improvement is next to impossible and you develop bad technique in the process.

It sounds like you are in very good hands with your music teacher.  I agree – it would be a great target for you to play the Czerny that you posted as well as the person playing it.  Both the slow and the fast version.  As far as uneven scales, I’ll post an exercise that MAY help – it is easy.  I just need to notate it for you.  You don't have to play it.  It's there just in case you are interested.  Again, I recommend Murray Mclachlan book.

[frodo1]

Exercises to help play even scales.

To be played in all keys with hands together.  BUT FIRST - you need to perfect them with hands separate in the key of C major at a target tempo of 80 BPM.  Start slower than 80 BPM. Final target tempo – 140 BPM. You want to work for perfect, even sound – with each note at exact same loudness.  Play all notes Piano then repeat exercise, this time at Mezzo-Forte.

Use standard scale fingerings, but the 5th finger is never used in these exercises.  For example, in the key of C major:  The notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B of the C major scale are played with fingers 1, 2, 3, 1, 2 ,3, 4 respectively for the RH and fingers 1, 4, 3, 2, 1, 3, 2 respectively for the LH.  For example: All D's are played with the 2nd finger of RH. All D's are played with the 4th finger of the LH).

1st exercise:
Rhythm of 1st exercise – Four 16th notes followed by a quarter note. 
Play the following:
C, D, E, F, G     G, F, E, D, C     C, D, E, F, G     G, F, E, D, C (fingered 1,2,3,1,2    2,1,3,2,1 for RH)
D, E, F, G, A     A, G, F, E, D – REPEAT  (To be clear, D is played with 2nd finger of RH and 4th finger for LH)
E, F, G, A, B     B, A, G, F, E – REPEAT  (To be clear, E is played with 3rd finger of RH and 3rd finger for LH)
F, G, A, B, C     C, B, A, G, F – REPEAT
G, A, B, C, D     D, C, B, A, G – REPEAT
A, B, C, D, E     E, D, C, B, A – REPEAT
B, C, D, E, F     F, E, D, C, B – REPEAT
Continue upward

2nd exercise:
Rhythm of 2nd exercise – Two 16th note triples followed by a quarter note. 
Play the following:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B     B, A, G, F, E, D, C - REPEAT
D, E, F, G, A, B, C     C, B, A, G, F, E, D – REPEAT
E, F, G, A, B, C, D     D, C, B, A, G, F, E – REPEAT
F, G, A, B, C, D, E    E, D, C, B, A, G, F – REPEAT
G, A, B, C, D, E, F     F, E, D, C, B, A, G – REPEAT
A, B, C, D, E, F, G     G, F, E, D, C, B, A – REPEAT
B, C, D, E, F, G, A     A, G, F, E, D, C, B – REPEAT
Continue upward

Optional final exercise – assuming you have completed good understanding of precalculus math including Algebraic, exponential, logarithmic and circular (trigonometric) functions along with coordinate geometry in the plane:  Work on first half of Thomas/Finney "Calculus and Analytic Geometry" 9th edition (through chapter 9 - Conic sections, parametrized curves and polar coordinates).

[ranjit]

Exercises to help play even scales.

Thanks for the exercises. I will try them out!

Optional final exercise – assuming you have completed good understanding of precalculus math including Algebraic, exponential, logarithmic and circular (trigonometric) functions along with coordinate geometry in the plane:  Work on first half of Thomas/Finney "Calculus and Analytic Geometry" 9th edition (through chapter 9 - Conic sections, parametrized curves and polar coordinates).

Not sure why you recommend this book, but I have completed a complete undergraduate sequence in math haha. Baby Rudin, if you've heard of it.

[frodo1]

Thanks for the exercises. I will try them out!
Not sure why you recommend this book, but I have completed a complete undergraduate sequence in math haha. Baby Rudin, if you've heard of it.

Haha.  I bought Principles of Mathematical Analysis (International Series in Pure and Applied Mathematics) 3rd Edition by Walter Rudin for my son back on 9/9/2013 I see on Amazon.  Your all set then.  Great!

[ranjit]

Haha.  I bought Principles of Mathematical Analysis (International Series in Pure and Applied Mathematics) 3rd Edition by Walter Rudin for my son back on 9/9/2013 I see on Amazon.  Your all set then.  Great!

Oh, has your son finished a math degree? That is pretty cool, I haven't seen too many people go down that route.

[frodo1]

Oh, has your son finished a math degree? That is pretty cool, I haven't seen too many people go down that route.

I have degrees in math and music.  My son unfortunately never completed his degree, although he went further in math than I did through self-study.  My nephew is in Japan working on post doctoral projects in mathematics.

[ranjit]

I have degrees in math and music.  My son unfortunately never completed his degree, although he went further in math than I did through self-study.  My nephew is in Japan working on post doctoral projects in mathematics.

Interesting. Did you do your math and music degrees simultaneously or at different points in time? I'm sure there are a lot of people interested in both, but I think many choose one or the other. Asking because I might also consider a music degree in the future.

[frodo1]

Interesting. Did you do your math and music degrees simultaneously or at different points in time? I'm sure there are a lot of people interested in both, but I think many choose one or the other. Asking because I might also consider a music degree in the future.

I was getting master's degree in music performance at University of Toronto, even though I lived in USA all my life.  About 90% through the program, I decided to go into math.  So I bought a used pre-calc book at a Toronto book store. I still have this!  I went to the Toronto library for a month going through this book before dropping out of their music program.  I went back to USA and received my math degree.  I'm a retired actuary after working for 30 years.