What are your thoughts on these kind of "visualized" top-down piano videos?

[transitional]

Aren’t they just people playing on normal keyboards with a light effect representing the different intervalic positions? I found it quite interesting and even a tad useful for larger works where they were AI modified to performances of famous pianists playing things like Brahms 2, Prok 2 and Rach 3 etc. But many of the ones where the pianist is playing some etude or something have clearly been tampered with eg sped up and overly enhanced. A prime example of that is that guy called ‘Rousseau’. Obvious fraud yet the general public totally buy into it.

It's hard to tell, that just seems like an imposed theory. I mean, they could have normalized the audio, sped it up, or have good audio quality. I just think that some of these videos have zero sensitivity or emotion. Like Rousseau's 1st ballade, it sounds like the notes plus the dynamic markings. But Rousseau can play really well technically. If it sounds good slow,  there is just no way to tell if the recording was tampered with

[dedalus89]

I think a lot of people are a bit too harsh and dare i say it, closed-minded just because these visualizations sit outside of the "correct" way to enjoy a piece.  Also it seems many people only look at it from the lens of a person trying to learn piano rather than "merely" a listener. A lot of people can't read music and these visualizations can help them follow along with the piece.  They can catch themes that recur easier, grasp the patterns being used better, all kinds of things. It's just adding a visual element to music which is nothing new.  I mean opera to state the obvious but television and movies as well as video game music. But in this case the visual element is directly related to the piece. I really can't imagine why somebody could see this as a bad thing.  Not enjoying it yourself is fair, but just what could possibly be bad about adding an interesting visual element that helps people follow the music?  For many people, classical music is relatively foreign and difficult to follow and understand, so put yourself in their shoes

[lostinidlewonder]

I think any visualisation for piano playing that engages an audience is wonderful. Not everyone sees the piano in the traditional way, and not everyone need even learn piano in a traditional manner. There is a long history of resistance when there is any medium that tries to detract from normal sheet music so it's no surprise that there will be those who disregard and miss the educational use of these "falling notes".

People have to learn to look outside of their box, they might learn something new and valuable.

[perfect_pitch]

so it's no surprise that there will be those who disregard and miss the educational use of these "falling notes".

You mean - copying like a rote-playing monkey...

GOTCHA. There is no educational use of the falling notes... none.

[lostinidlewonder]

There is no educational use of the falling notes... none.

I have an autistic student who learns complex pieces with only the falling notes. He learned Hungarian Rhapsody no 2 by memory in a week. Not educational?

You are being short sighted to the fact that there are a large number of pianists who do not relate to reading sheet music and have learned to connect and experience creativity with the piano with the falling notes. It cannot be substantiated that this is not educational.

Your close mindedness and refusal to observe that the "falling notes" connects people to piano in different and useful way which is other than what you and I were taught is without foundation.

There are plenty of highly reputable rote learning schools of thought with the piano are you saying that they are all wrong? My first years of learning the piano was rote learning and playing by ear what I heard my father play, it served me very well so you are just exhibiting a lack of understanding different approaches to your own. As a music teacher you benefit from being aware that there are many pathways to connecting with the piano not just the one you prefer to teach.

It's crucial for music educators to acknowledge and respect these varied pathways to musical expression and mastery, you do disservice to those who can't jump through your preferred hoops and also limit your pedagogical awareness.

[dedalus89]

I think something that gets forgotten is that musical notation is merely symbols end representations of music as well as an algorithm for creating a certain piece of music-- like a cookbook, telling you the directions.  The music resides in the sound of the piece itself and that exists in the mind of the listener, performer, and composer, none of which have an identical idea or experience of the music. Western art music has a very sophisticated form of notation but think about all the music of the ancient world or folk music for which notation is superfluous yet nobody would say that stuff wasn't serious music. The point I'm trying to make is that the visual representations we're talking about are just like "proper" notation in that they are representing the real art-- sound over time--in a visual medium. It can never represent the art perfectly, nor should it try.  The fact that western notation doesn't is shown by the need for interpretation.

The purpose of music is for the performer and listener to enjoy it.  If people enjoy this form of consuming music then how could that be a bad thing?

[perfect_pitch]

I have an autistic student who learns complex pieces with only the falling notes. He learned Hungarian Rhapsody no 2 by memory in a week. Not educational?

And you assume/believe he couldn't play it with the conventional sheet music?

You are being short sighted to the fact that there are a large number of pianists who do not relate to reading sheet music and have learned to connect and experience creativity with the piano with the falling notes. It cannot be substantiated that this is not educational.

So they're completely dependant on falling notes, thus being the absolute opposite of what it takes to  'learn' something. They only reason people do these types of videos is because it means that a single person has to play it many, many, multiples of times just to learn the pieces - thus boosting their YouTube views. That's the only reason most people make them.

Your close mindedness and refusal to observe that the "falling notes" connects people to piano in different and useful way which is other than what you and I were taught is without foundation.

No... it's not. I've had many people who have tried to play many pieces of music through the 'falling notes', and generally most times their fingering is bloody awful, they can't actually play it as fluently as the video, it's heavily fragmented where they'll be able to play a single bar or 2 in time, but it's got a jillion pauses in it, and a lot of the time these videos are done by people who can't properly notate the music anyway (i.e. those who usually create musescore arrangements).

Then the problem is I have to undo all their bad habits, and show them how to play the piece properly.

There are plenty of highly reputable rote learning schools of thought with the piano are you saying that they are all wrong? My first years of learning the piano was rote learning and playing by ear what I heard my father play, it served me very well so you are just exhibiting a lack of understanding different approaches to your own. As a music teacher you benefit from being aware that there are many pathways to connecting with the piano not just the one you prefer to teach.

Nice analogy... poorly thought of though. There's a difference between learning by ear and the 'falling notes'. If you hear something and you try and work it out by ear, it involves a process of trial and error in figuring out the notes until you get them right - and in doing so you are trying to process and work out the pitch of the notes faster, and with more accuracy over time. This is a skill.

If I point to a note and tell you to play it, followed by the next note, and the next note without any reference to fingering, and tell you to do it several hundreds or thousands more times... THIS IS NOT LEARNING!!!

It's crucial for music educators to acknowledge and respect these varied pathways to musical expression and mastery, you do disservice to those who can't jump through your preferred hoops and also limit your pedagogical awareness.

I don't want students to jump through hoops... I just want to give them the gift of being able to read music. That is what we are - educators. We are trying to give them independence - we are trying to give them tools they can take to other pieces of music they haven't studied with us.

The greatest joy in my job is when someone comes back after a couple weeks holidays, or during the week - they say to me 'I learnt this song all by myself' without any help from me in that particular piece.
Why? This way I know I am teaching them... they are not copying me - they are doing independent thought and practice... THEY are the ones learning. 

That's what makes a good teacher.

[lostinidlewonder]

And you assume/believe he couldn't play it with the conventional sheet music?

There is zero assumptions he can't stand sheet music it makes him highly anxious and he refuses to use it. You need to realise that there are different approaches to learning and we as teachers need to be able to be flexible enough to manage it. When dealing with autistic students you should also appreciate how different they approach learning and as teachers we have a lot to learn from that!!

Even non autistic students can have the NEED to learn differently and it is something to embrace and celebrate rather than trying to assimilate it to conventions. It is akin to forcing a fish to climb a tree and if it can't it is thought to be a failure and slow learner, it is however the test itself which is the failure!!

I've converted many to learning sheet music appropriately so don't get me wrong. But there are those who indeed do not want to use it and must connect to music in other ways.

So they're completely dependant on falling notes, thus being the absolute opposite of what it takes to  'learn' something. They only reason people do these types of videos is because it means that a single person has to play it many, many, multiples of times just to learn the pieces - thus boosting their YouTube views. That's the only reason most people make them.

You have talked straight past my point that people need to learn in different ways. As a sight reader I am dependant on the sheets, someone who uses falling notes is depending on the falling notes, there's no different in terms of dependence. You also gain memory through doing both.

No... it's not. I've had many people who have tried to play many pieces of music through the 'falling notes', and generally most times their fingering is bloody awful, they can't actually play it as fluently as the video, it's heavily fragmented where they'll be able to play a single bar or 2 in time, but it's got a jillion pauses in it, and a lot of the time these videos are done by people who can't properly notate the music anyway (i.e. those who usually create musescore arrangements).

Again you have quoted me and talked past my point. People do indeed use the falling notes and connect to the piano differently to conventional sheet music. The fact that it can be done wrong is totally irrelevant, you can read and use sheet music wrong too! Fingering and appropriate practice methods can be taught through the falling notes, more recent innovations to it for example has the finger numbers attached to the falling notes and has students playing logical sections at a time. My autistic student enjoys watching people's actual hands playing with the falling notes and gets all the fingers correct, many others do just the same.

Then the problem is I have to undo all their bad habits, and show them how to play the piece properly.

Because you don't know how to teach through the falling notes medium doesn't mean it's wrong, even if a student reads sheet music there will be much to correct and improve upon.

Nice analogy... poorly thought of though.

Support your unsubstantiated claim, you are just saying this with zero evidence. There are plenty of reputable rote learning schools of music, how do you think music was played before sheet music too for thousands of years? Wake up.

There's a difference between learning by ear and the 'falling notes'.

Wrong, you can just listen to the falling notes too, why are you being so illogical?

If you hear something and you try and work it out by ear, it involves a process of trial and error in figuring out the notes until you get them right - and in doing so you are trying to process and work out the pitch of the notes faster, and with more accuracy over time. This is a skill.

This is ONE definition of what playing by ear means. It can also be used in combination with other skills, it is for instance used in sight reading all the time, why is it harder to sight read while playing on a silent piano? Obviously the ear controlling the playing is a large factor. Once more you talk past my point  it's so much easier responding to people like that right? Lol

If I point to a note and tell you to play it, followed by the next note, and the next note without any reference to fingering, and tell you to do it several hundreds or thousands more times... THIS IS NOT LEARNING!!!

People learn in many ways and visually watching someone then reproducing it is a valid way to learn. You contort the process into something with zero understanding of the process so you are providing your own biased and erroneous assessment.

I don't want students to jump through hoops... I just want to give them the gift of being able to read music.

So you are saying they must learn how to read sheet music and if they can't or won't they are utter failures and should give up piano? That's your hoop right there.

That is what we are - educators. We are trying to give them independence - we are trying to give them tools they can take to other pieces of music they haven't studied with us.

Falling notes can do exactly this too.

The greatest joy in my job is when someone comes back after a couple weeks holidays, or during the week - they say to me 'I learnt this song all by myself' without any help from me in that particular piece.

Falling notes can do this as well.

Why? This way I know I am teaching them... they are not copying me - they are doing independent thought and practice... THEY are the ones learning. 

They are copying what's in the sheet music. No one can learn without copying the example of something otherwise we need to recreate the wheel at all times. You can learn independently with practice with the falling notes too.

You need to realise that a teacher should LEARN from their students as well. All I am seeing from you is a stringent one direction type of learning, it's sheet music or the highway.

That's what makes a good teacher.

A good teacher adds to their pedagogical understanding and views many ways in which different people may learn. If you have a solitary preference for teaching with sheets that's fine but you then can't say other ways are wrong such as the falling notes that makes you highly close minded and the opposite of what defines a good teacher.

[dedalus89]

*ahem* Would you like your mic back, you dropped it.

[dedalus89]

I mean one can devise an entirely new form of notation to express the same exact piece of music. In fact, I was given this assignment in a music theory class in high school. We were to come up with our own notation system, and devise ways to show things like length, volume, pitch, etc., and I had the craziest and most complicated one of all (I was having fun with it). I had the length of the bar (it was in horizontal bars) corresponded to the pitch. That's right, short bar, low note, suuuper long bar that takes up a whole line, very high note. How high or low it was on the staff determined its volume. The color (I used colors) determined the pitch.

My example is pretty ridiculous, and crude, and inchoate, but the point is that you can create an entirely different system of notation to represent the same music. The western classical notation system's only advantage (and it is a very big one) is its popularity and history, and is used out of convention and tradition. BUT one could imagine an intelligently designed notation system, like a kind of Esperanto of musical notation, that had a team of scientists working with musicologists to devise a notation system that is as intuitive and easy to learn as possible while still retaining all the nuance that's possible (and perhaps even expanding on it) in western musical notation.

[perfect_pitch]

There are plenty of reputable rote learning schools of music

Yeah, and if you give them a simplistic piece of music to sight-read, they're absolutely fucked. They can usually play hard pieces well, but then don't have the ability to take their technical abilities and play a melody that is far easier than what they have just played.

A good teacher adds to their pedagogical understanding and views many ways in which different people may learn. If you have a solitary preference for teaching with sheets that's fine but you then can't say other ways are wrong such as the falling notes that makes you highly close minded and the opposite of what defines a good teacher.

No... there's been all sorts of fads in the last 10 years - people who believe they have found new and interesting ways to notate music. The 'Falling notes' is just another mere example of this.

And this is coming from someone who has perfect pitch, and can play by ear. I never try and endorse this because too many students do attempt to learn their songs by plonking at random notes until they play the right note. That's not exactly learning - that's just the elimination of wrong notes by sheer luck.

Even non autistic students can have the NEED to learn differently and it is something to embrace and celebrate rather than trying to assimilate it to conventions. It is akin to forcing a fish to climb a tree and if it can't it is thought to be a failure and slow learner, it is however the test itself which is the failure!!

I've never had anyone who was unable to read sheet music. I've taught a number of autistic people, and people who have had mental and physical disabilities as well - and I've been teaching for 15 years.

If you have a solitary preference for teaching with sheets that's fine but you then can't say other ways are wrong such as the falling notes that makes you highly close minded and the opposite of what defines a good teacher.

Okay... maybe your right. Teaching with sheets is fine and maybe the 'falling notes' isn't wrong... but it definitely is a hinderance, and a very weak substitution for the sheet music.

And I'm not closed minded - I've had a number of people who again learn these songs off the internet and it never turns out right. WHY? Because as a teacher - when you teach them the ability to read the notes, understand the fingering and the note lengths on the sheet music - you give them ALL the tools in order to understand at least the basic layout of the music.

What the falling notes does is try to force a person to fully commit to memory every single physical note on the piano and in the correct order - a task which is daunting in of itself... and when they fail to do this they go stabbing at random notes in an attempt to fill in the gaps in their memory.

What part of that is really 'learning' All I know is I won't contribute to the 'bastardisation' of piano teaching... and that's not closed-mindedness, although I can see how you could jump to that conclusion...

...actually, no... I can't.

[dedalus89]

I mean what do you say to the entire genres in which sheet music is not used and memorizing things is the default assumption. Like all rock and metal, prog or otherwise, genres. I began as a prog metal player, that's my home, and I memorized hundreds of riffs just fine. Most guitarists merely memorize their entire setlist, even acts like Dream Theater with incredibly technical and challenging music doing 2 hour sets, John Petrucci merely memorizes all of it. It's not a better or worse way, but if you get used to memorizing things you get a lot better at it. Just like if you get used to reading a score you get better at it. Again I go back to the fact that musical notation is merely a representation of the music, not the music itself. It's instructions to teach you how to play the thing, the thing does not exist in the notation. The thing in itself, the 'ding an sich' is the piece played by a performer and heard by a listener.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yeah, and if you give them a simplistic piece of music to sight-read, they're absolutely fucked. They can usually play hard pieces well, but then don't have the ability to take their technical abilities and play a melody that is far easier than what they have just played.

You are encouraging the ideology that everyone must jump through the hoop of sight reading to learn music appropriately. You need to appreciate that people can learn in all sorts of other ways and if you think its worse then that is worse FOR YOU, take an exact individual under inspection and you will find that your way is not the best for everyone and in fact there is a large niche of pianists who can't stand sheet music and still learn at a very high level without any hinderance.

No... there's been all sorts of fads in the last 10 years - people who believe they have found new and interesting ways to notate music. The 'Falling notes' is just another mere example of this.

You neglect to appreciate that there are a whole group of pianists who learn from this method in a perfectly fine manner and in fact learn faster than they would with sheet music. It is one of the much more popular alternative methods, to try and put that in the group of all other alternative methods is short sighted on your behalf. You can be a traditionalist and hold onto dear sight reading as much as you like no one is taking that away from you, but if you then shake your puny fist at those who learn successfully using other methods it just makes you look rather ignorant.

And this is coming from someone who has perfect pitch, and can play by ear. I never try and endorse this because too many students do attempt to learn their songs by plonking at random notes until they play the right note. That's not exactly learning - that's just the elimination of wrong notes by sheer luck.

Because you dont understand how to use it of course you will tell students not to use it because you have no capability to teach with it. No one is saying you can't teach in the manner than you prefer, that is not the argument. You are going too far to then say anything that isn't the way you teach is wrong and sub standard. Sure harvest your own opinion but realize the world out there is far larger than the little bubble you exist within.

I've never had anyone who was unable to read sheet music. I've taught a number of autistic people, and people who have had mental and physical disabilities as well - and I've been teaching for 15 years.

I've had more teaching experience than yoruself but this is irrelevant. Just use your logic, there are obviously a lot of people who cannot stand reading sheet music, they are those who don't come to you for lessons because they can't stand that system. In fact there are far more self learners of piano than those who study with a teacher, maybe that might surprise you, you do realize there are a lot more people out there who cannot afford thousands of dollars a year for piano lessons and cannot commit to a teacher and thus learn on their own. Many of those people have learned music without traditional sheet music. If you say that they are doing it wrong and are not being educated then how do you explain all these people connecting to music in other ways? Again if you want to exist in your little bubble of convention that's fine no one will take you from that safe space, but you are missing the larger picture and look ignorant if you disparage any other method you yourself don't use.

Okay... maybe your right. Teaching with sheets is fine and maybe the 'falling notes' isn't wrong... but it definitely is a hinderance, and a very weak substitution for the sheet music.

Again you need to use some logic here, you need to think relative to the individual not your own brain. There are plenty of pianists who will argue that it is far more superior to sheet music for them. There are so many ways in which people connect to music you should know this, just because people do not use sheet music doesn't mean that their approach is wrong, you may not know how to teach beyond this medium and thats fine you specialize in what you want, but to harbor a stance that anything other than what you do is wrong or missing something is simply being close minded, that is just logic. You can admit you do not know how to help those who want to learn in that manner because you don't understand how it can be done as effective as using sheet music, that's fine, we don't know everything in this world. But I know sheet music reading very deeply and I know falling note learning very deeply too and see the benefits, strengths and weakness of both, I can tell you for sure sheet music reading is better for person A but will be terrible for person B who much prefers the falling notes. 

And I'm not closed minded - I've had a number of people who again learn these songs off the internet and it never turns out right. WHY? Because as a teacher - when you teach them the ability to read the notes, understand the fingering and the note lengths on the sheet music - you give them ALL the tools in order to understand at least the basic layout of the music.

Your sample space is miniscule. the falling notes certainly has allowed a large number of new pianists to connect to the piano in a different more engaging way for them. There are also many who use it to then as a platform to read music too which you should not neglect.

What the falling notes does is try to force a person to fully commit to memory every single physical note on the piano and in the correct order - a task which is daunting in of itself... and when they fail to do this they go stabbing at random notes in an attempt to fill in the gaps in their memory.

You have to realize that some people actually see pattern in the falling notes and do not see it as one note after the other. Your misunderstanding of how it can be used is why you don't see its usefulness.

What part of that is really 'learning' All I know is I won't contribute to the 'bastardisation' of piano teaching... and that's not closed-mindedness, although I can see how you could jump to that conclusion...

...actually, no... I can't.

Of course your cannot because you are encased within your own conventions of teaching. This is totally fine no one should say you cannot do that, you can teach a whole lot of students successfully in this manner, I have taught conventionally and still do too. It is however NOT the only way and you need to realize that some teachers such as myself actually are interested in alternative methods because we have seen people thrive and do so well with it, there are also ways to play the piano without sheet music at all which can't even be considered as unconventional such as chord reading and improvisation. It intrigues me that people can use falling notes much more successfully than traditional sheet music, it is not something I will push again but instead strive to understand and on a professional level I have done this quite deeply and seen highly interesting results in thousands of people.

[lostinidlewonder]

I mean what do you say to the entire genres in which sheet music is not used and memorizing things is the default assumption. Like all rock and metal, prog or otherwise, genres. I began as a prog metal player, that's my home, and I memorized hundreds of riffs just fine. Most guitarists merely memorize their entire setlist, even acts like Dream Theater with incredibly technical and challenging music doing 2 hour sets, John Petrucci merely memorizes all of it. It's not a better or worse way, but if you get used to memorizing things you get a lot better at it. Just like if you get used to reading a score you get better at it. Again I go back to the fact that musical notation is merely a representation of the music, not the music itself. It's instructions to teach you how to play the thing, the thing does not exist in the notation. The thing in itself, the 'ding an sich' is the piece played by a performer and heard by a listener.

Excellent point, there are plenty of musicians out there who connect to playing their instrument without the need for sheet music at all. I personally know many who don't read sheet music to play.

[perfect_pitch]

You know what lost... you do whatever makes you happy and you teach whatever way you want.

I'll continue doing what I do. What you do is nobodies business but your own. Don't give me that 'little bubble' crap though... I've made FAR more mistakes in my learning of the piano than you ever have, and DESPITE that - I managed to fix them all and be a successful teacher.

I was taught by absolute morons growing up (for the most part of my primary, secondary and tertiary years), but I still managed to shake off those bad habits and refine my playing.

Yes, there are people who can play by ear - I already told you why there are flaws in this method (and again, I have perfect pitch and could easily play by ear), but I don't. There's WAY to much trial and error for people to play by ear. Yes, some people can do it but it is time-consuming in its guesswork to get the notes perfectly right.

You do what you want and see where that gets you... I'm going to continue teaching the proper way. Personally, I think your argument that Person A likes sheet music, and Person B doesn't like sheet music is a cop-out because they think they can't be taught how to read.

Your misunderstanding of how it can be used is why you don't see its usefulness.

That's just completely wrong. You're just assuming I dismissed it within 10 seconds of seeing it.

[transitional]

You can do either, but I think it's good to learn how to read the sheet music to better understand the music. Also, it can help you learn pieces faster and eventually enjoy the music more.

These videos are okay - people are attracted to the pretty colors that might get them into classical music. But they're also played by a faceless unnamed person, if you're seriously listening, listen to a more reputable pianist.

[perfect_pitch]

You can do either, but I think it's good to learn how to read the sheet music to better understand the music. Also, it can help you learn pieces faster and eventually enjoy the music more.

I also think it helps a person become a more independent learner. I don't want my students to 'copy' how I play. I want to guide them sure, and give them hints at how to play better, but I don't want them to copy my every whim, finger and note.

That's not the role of a teacher. Also, you get people who might be Grade 2 looking at these 'falling note' style videos of 'La Campanella' and think to themselves, while the music might be impossible to read at my level - they try and attempt these pieces which are beyond their level and ultimately hurt themselves or cause pain in their fingers trying to learn them.

...Like this person, who had the great idea of trying to play La Campanella after 2 months of starting piano: https://new.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/18cshkj/i_have_been_practicing_only_la_campanella_for_two/

He's also been trying to learn this using the 'falling notes' method.   🤦🏻‍♂️

[lostinidlewonder]

You know what lost... you do whatever makes you happy and you teach whatever way you want.

I do, I teach traditional/conventional ways and I teach beyond that too.

I'll continue doing what I do.

Not once have I said you can't, in fact I have supported the traditional method throughout my replies as it is something I also teach.

What you do is nobodies business but your own.

Well it is the buisness of my students and other people I discuss teaching with.

Don't give me that 'little bubble' crap though... I've made FAR more mistakes in my learning of the piano than you ever have, and DESPITE that - I managed to fix them all and be a successful teacher.

I have taught 2x longer than you, so I don't know how you can guess anything about what I have experienced. Although since you are open to the fact that you make mistakes (and we all do) you should perhaps realize you are also mistaken in this case too.

Yes, there are people who can play by ear - I already told you why there are flaws in this method (and again, I have perfect pitch and could easily play by ear), but I don't.

Again you are going down a narrow minded street by saying things like this. If you want to be narrow minded that's up to you but you are going to have to deal with the fact that others will call you up on that. I know plenty of excellent musicians who play by ear and never use sheet music, they would wipe the floor with you with their skills.

There's WAY to much trial and error for people to play by ear. Yes, some people can do it but it is time-consuming in its guesswork to get the notes perfectly right.

Your assumptions are trapped by your own experience. You are trying to encapsulate the entire human experience of music in a way that aligns with your own, logically that is just going to fail.

You do what you want and see where that gets you... I'm going to continue teaching the proper way.

You are going to teach in the only proper way there is? Again this highlights your narrow mindedness. That's fine be that way, but you are going to have to deal with people who actually point that out to you especially when you come all guns blazing calling other approaches uneducational, ineffective, useless and etc.

Personally, I think your argument that Person A likes sheet music, and Person B doesn't like sheet music is a cop-out because they think they can't be taught how to read.

I didn't use the word "like" I wrote "I can tell you for sure sheet music reading is better for person A but will be terrible for person B who much prefers the falling notes." The way in which people think and how they process information is the commanding factor, it is not about like or dislike. You lack the logic that the human experience is varied. Sheet music doesn't connect with everyone, if you disagree then you merely lack experience as a teacher. There are very successful ways to connect with music by avoiding sheet music, just because you don't know about that doesn't mean anything at all, you are mistaken that there is no other way and all other ways are ineffective, that just makes you highly close minded.

That's just completely wrong. You're just assuming I dismissed it within 10 seconds of seeing it.

I'm not assuming the time you used, but it is 100% obvious you have no idea how to use it because if you did you wouldn't be denigrating it. I am a much more experienced teacher than yourself telling you that I have seen its benefits and know THOUSANDS of people who have benefited from it since it is my professional interest to see people learn in different ways.

Have a look at your very first response to me in this thread, it's not that long ago, your close mindedness is the reason why I am responding to you. You want to go around spreading misinformation you are going to have someone with more experience than yourself push back against it.

[lostinidlewonder]

You can do either, but I think it's good to learn how to read the sheet music to better understand the music. Also, it can help you learn pieces faster and eventually enjoy the music more.

It "can" help you learn pieces faster and enjoy music more, I can attest to this experience from my own personal journey. But this is not the experience for everyone and it is marginalizing a large portion of pianists who do not connect with sheet music at all even though they have tried or simply don't have the need for it at all!

Heck I would love it if 100% of people loved sheet music and really connected with it at the level I do, but this is just not the case. As a teacher I could either a) only continue to teach only those who like sheet music or b) consider alternatives to sheet music so that I can still help those who cannot use it. Obviously I have chosen b) and from this I have learned a great deal more about the various ways people connect to music. Sheet music is not the only way and those that think it is the best and only way FOR EVERYONE are being ridiculous.

[perfect_pitch]

As a teacher I could either a) only continue to teach only those who like sheet music or b) consider alternatives to sheet music so that I can still help those who cannot use it. Obviously I have chosen b) and from this I have learned a great deal more about the various ways people connect to music. Sheet music is not the only way and those that think it is the best and only way FOR EVERYONE are being ridiculous.

Again... who is it that can't read sheet music??? Seriously... either you just assume that those who don't want to read sheet music can't... or you refuse to try and show them the benefits of it.

You try and show those 'falling notes' to any university teacher or long standing piano teacher, you're going to be laughed at. You show those 'falling notes' to any professional pianist and they're going to think you're a fruitcake.

I never said it was the only way (again, you completely disregard everything I have said)...

...but it IS the best way to learn. Perhaps you're too keen to jump onto the new fad of 'falling keys' that you have to endorse it. This is why I presume you stick an advert for it on your signature.

Heck I would love it if 100% of people loved sheet music and really connected with it at the level I do

Yeah... there's a reason that they haven't... and it's not for a lack of trying, naivety or short mindedness...

You have a good day.

[lostinidlewonder]

Again... who is it that can't read sheet music??? Seriously... either you just assume that those who don't want to read sheet music can't... or you refuse to try and show them the benefits of it.

I have already given you a prime example of my autistic student who actually feels anxiety and stress if I try to get him to read sheet music. This is an extreme example that I hoped would have opened your eyes to the fact that people out there process information differently and sheet music is not immune to this process difference. As a matter of pedagogy one area I specialise in is sight reading, I have students who study it just with me and have other piano teachers as well, I would bet I can teach reading sheet music much better than yourself too, so please keep your opinions to yourself otherwise counter opinions about you will be at the ready.

You try and show those 'falling notes' to any university teacher or long standing piano teacher, you're going to be laughed at. You show those 'falling notes' to any professional pianist and they're going to think you're a fruitcake.

Again you are looking at a samplespace that does not equate the entire piano experience of the world of pianists out there. That is why you are going to get the bais and close mindedness. There's a reason why many piano academics are a failure at hosting successful concerts or cannot sell their music products with high profit margins. They are looking through a narrow lens of what piano education and entertainment actual entails.

I never said it was the only way (again, you completely disregard everything I have said)...

Oh no? Just you will teach the "proper" way right? lol

Quote from: perfect_pitch on Today at 09:48:08 AM
You do what you want and see where that gets you... I'm going to continue teaching the proper way.

...but it IS the best way to learn.

Sight reading and using scores is NOT the best way to learn. Again you are merely looking at a baised sample space of musical interests and this is why the definition of close mindeness applies to you perfectly.

Perhaps you're too keen to jump onto the new fad of 'falling keys' that you have to endorse it. This is why I presume you stick an advert for it on your signature.

It has nothing to do with being "too keen" or jumping on a "new fad", I have personally seen its power and usefulness for those who are resistant to traditional methods of learning. I have seen the evidence, I don't just live inside of my head. The falling notes system has been around for a number of years and continues to be used so by definition it cannot be considered a fad. Since you are so close minded you have no idea of the game changer Augmented Reality has on the falling notes system and piano education, it's fine you can remain teaching tradition and ignore technological progress which aims to open new doors to piano education no one is stopping you from that. But try to deingrate these advancements and you are just proving that you are close minded.

Yeah... there's a reason that they haven't... and it's not for a lack of trying, naivety or short mindedness...

Well give this massive secret that would make 100% of pianists want to learn sight reading at a high level. You should be a very rich person if you can answer that, unfortunately you are dreaming there is no way to bring 100% of all pianists in this world to sight reading and want to do it.

You have a good day.

Of course I am.

[dedalus89]

You know what lost... you do whatever makes you happy and you teach whatever way you want.

I'll continue doing what I do. What you do is nobodies business but your own. Don't give me that 'little bubble' crap though... I've made FAR more mistakes in my learning of the piano than you ever have, and DESPITE that - I managed to fix them all and be a successful teacher.

I was taught by absolute morons growing up (for the most part of my primary, secondary and tertiary years), but I still managed to shake off those bad habits and refine my playing.

Yes, there are people who can play by ear - I already told you why there are flaws in this method (and again, I have perfect pitch and could easily play by ear), but I don't. There's WAY to much trial and error for people to play by ear. Yes, some people can do it but it is time-consuming in its guesswork to get the notes perfectly right.

You do what you want and see where that gets you... I'm going to continue teaching the proper way. Personally, I think your argument that Person A likes sheet music, and Person B doesn't like sheet music is a cop-out because they think they can't be taught how to read.

That's just completely wrong. You're just assuming I dismissed it within 10 seconds of seeing it.

This is kind of a random quote and not the exact thing I'm responding to, I just couldn't find something I remember you saying, but it's immaterial. I wonder if you would grant that even if this "falling notes" thing (I'm not familiar with it) isn't better than traditional western musical notation, that some type of notation could be devised that would be better. Do you think so or no, or do you think that western classical notation as it exists today is the absolute pinnacle of methods to represent music with symbols? Ask ask because western notation was developed over centuries--over a millennium--from people writing down plainchant sketches and from there it went through countless evolutions and stages, "fads" that died out, and what we have today is a product of history, natural selection, and accident. It would seem rather far too lucky to suppose that such a process would create the most ideal method imaginable.

A second thing is a couple places you talked about guessing notes to learn stuff by ear being just ellimination of wrong notes. I don't know, I suppose you could characterize it that way, but I'll tell you this, when I've played guitar with classically trained people they usually cannot play by ear or improvise whatsoever. I'll come up with a riff, ask them to play it back to me, and they really just can't do it or don't even know where to begin. It's pretty odd because if they play me back, I'll plunk a few notes and play it back to them in something like 10 seconds usually. Trial and error is a part of the process I would grant, but it involves a lot of intuition as well as a good ear with relative pitch. Just play any random note and hear the relative pitch between that and any note they plate, find a note that's the same, then the rest is just figuring out a melody from that one note. Maybe since you have perfect pitch you don't know what that's like, so here's an example where perfect pitch is a bit of a hindrance if this is your idea of learning things by ear.

Lastly and I just want to say this because it's similar to the last topic. Classically trained people can't improvise. They just can't.  You ask them to come up with something and they look at you like a deer in the headlights. Let me make sure and add that this isn't everyone, but it's definitely not uncommon. If somebody asks me to come up with something, you give me 30 seconds to a minute, and I'll have something we can start with to develop. It may not be the greatest thing in the world, in fact it's certainly not, but that's not the point, you can start anywhere and sculpt it into something that often sounds nothing like where you started.

[perfect_pitch]

Augmented Reality has on the falling notes system and piano education, it's fine you can remain teaching tradition and ignore technological progress which aims to open new doors to piano education no one is stopping you from that. But try to deingrate these advancements and you are just proving that you are close minded.

You're nothing but a business man trying to promote what you think will make money... hence why you advertise it.

Walk into any shop and they'll sell you whatever will make a sale, not what's best for the customer.

I've had enough prattling from you. Like 3D TV's and the Betamax, these falling note type videos might be popular now, but will eventually fall by the wayside... and do you know what will be left??? Sheet music and the standard notation we've had for the last several hundred years.

[lostinidlewonder]

You're nothing but a business man trying to promote what you think will make money... hence why you advertise it.

Oh dear poor pp is thinking his cynical world view is the ultimate truth. This is no surprise and runs in line with your close mindedness. Hey why are you advertising your arrangement websites? Stop peddling man  stop being a business man, gosh! Oh wait I guess if you do it is all good huh? Lol

Walk into any shop and they'll sell you whatever will make a sale, not what's best for the customer.

Just like how you peddle the sheet music reading product as if it's the one and only way? Hypocrite much?

I've had enough prattling from you. Like 3D TV's and the Betamax, these falling note type videos might be popular now, but will eventually fall by the wayside... and do you know what will be left??? Sheet music and the standard notation we've had for the last several hundred years.

Prattling lol too bad you cannot contend with anything I said and merely talk past it. Just highlights your narrow mindedness once more. The system has been around for almost 20
years (Piegdon 2006) and has only grown in popularity as technology also advances, too bad for your world view right? Lol!

[lostinidlewonder]

This is kind of a random quote and not the exact thing I'm responding to, I just couldn't find something I remember you saying, but it's immaterial. I wonder if you would grant that even if this "falling notes" thing (I'm not familiar with it) isn't better than traditional western musical notation, that some type of notation could be devised that would be better. Do you think so or no, or do you think that western classical notation as it exists today is the absolute pinnacle of methods to represent music with symbols? Ask ask because western notation was developed over centuries--over a millennium--from people writing down plainchant sketches and from there it went through countless evolutions and stages, "fads" that died out, and what we have today is a product of history, natural selection, and accident. It would seem rather far too lucky to suppose that such a process would create the most ideal method imaginable.

A second thing is a couple places you talked about guessing notes to learn stuff by ear being just ellimination of wrong notes. I don't know, I suppose you could characterize it that way, but I'll tell you this, when I've played guitar with classically trained people they usually cannot play by ear or improvise whatsoever. I'll come up with a riff, ask them to play it back to me, and they really just can't do it or don't even know where to begin. It's pretty odd because if they play me back, I'll plunk a few notes and play it back to them in something like 10 seconds usually. Trial and error is a part of the process I would grant, but it involves a lot of intuition as well as a good ear with relative pitch. Just play any random note and hear the relative pitch between that and any note they plate, find a note that's the same, then the rest is just figuring out a melody from that one note. Maybe since you have perfect pitch you don't know what that's like, so here's an example where perfect pitch is a bit of a hindrance if this is your idea of learning things by ear.

Lastly and I just want to say this because it's similar to the last topic. Classically trained people can't improvise. They just can't.  You ask them to come up with something and they look at you like a deer in the headlights. Let me make sure and add that this isn't everyone, but it's definitely not uncommon. If somebody asks me to come up with something, you give me 30 seconds to a minute, and I'll have something we can start with to develop. It may not be the greatest thing in the world, in fact it's certainly not, but that's not the point, you can start anywhere and sculpt it into something that often sounds nothing like where you started.

Some sensible ideas from you. Perfect pitch learns in the classical style and cannot see past his nose on that front. It's why he has not been able to content with what points you bring up. I studied with Jazz musicians too and learned to jam with them a skill not many classical trained musicians get a chance to do. So although I've studied the classical path I too know the paths where sheet music really is unnecessary and instinct, improvisation, chord and scale theory, rhythmic instincts etc are much more to the forefront. So many classically trained musicians have very little idea about this but not many will take pp's completely marginalised stance and denigrate them all in an attempt to make the classical approach look superior. That stance of his is utterly undefensible.

[brogers70]

The world is full of great musical traditions that do not rely on notation. I read music well and I have for many years. I cannot improvise to save my life. If someone asked me to accompany them on a Christmas carol and I did not have a score, I could not play it by ear without spending a long time working it all out. I am, musically, very happy with all that I can do, having learned the "traditional" classical way, but I'm missing some important things that other people who learned along other pathways can do very easily. Improvisation was once an indispensable skill for serious classical musicians; now it's a niche thing that only a small fraction of classical musicians even attempt. That's a loss, and it's partly the fault of over-emphasis on reading music at the beginning of learning an instrument, as though you tried to learn to speak by first learning how to read.

[perfect_pitch]

Prattling lol too bad you cannot contend with anything I said and merely talk past it. Just highlights your narrow mindedness once more. The system has been around for almost 20
years (Piegdon 2006) and has only grown in popularity as technology also advances, too bad for your world view right? Lol!

I'd take you serious... but what twat uses the word 'lol'

Grow up.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd take you serious... but what twat uses the word 'lol'

Grow up.

Lol! And your use of expletive language is acceptable? Gosh you are one hypocritical close minded person, good luck with that. One can only laugh at you.

... they're absolutely f*****

I've edited your poor language, I guess we supposed to take you seriously on that one right? Lol

[lostinidlewonder]

The world is full of great musical traditions that do not rely on notation. I read music well and I have for many years. I cannot improvise to save my life. If someone asked me to accompany them on a Christmas carol and I did not have a score, I could not play it by ear without spending a long time working it all out. I am, musically, very happy with all that I can do, having learned the "traditional" classical way, but I'm missing some important things that other people who learned along other pathways can do very easily. Improvisation was once an indispensable skill for serious classical musicians; now it's a niche thing that only a small fraction of classical musicians even attempt. That's a loss, and it's partly the fault of over-emphasis on reading music at the beginning of learning an instrument, as though you tried to learn to speak by first learning how to read.

A good point, before the internet it cost a lot to get sheet music. Go back further and printed sheet music was a rarity to have. You make a good point connecting that "classical" musicians of the past did work more without sheets than today and thus skills like improvisation was more commonly found.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Firstly and on the smaller point in this discussion, the near total inability of contemporary classical musicians to improvise is incomprehensible to me but it's something I've grown up being able to do. Secondly, IF whatever manner of learning music is effective and accurate then I don't see what the problem is regarding how it's accomplished. I know someone who learnt the Waldstein without being able to read music. People can learn music quite atrociously despite having a score in front of them and being able to read. However, for classical music, it's generally advantageous imo that they can read, for two reasons, one being when it comes to interpretation then analysis is much more easily performed through reading than aurally, unless the pianist has a truly exceptional ear; secondly if you're going to do non-solo performance eg chamber music. If someone CAN learn accurately by ear or from such videos, then that's a skill in itself and should be welcomed. I think the biggest hazard is actually beginners being mislead into thinking that because they managed to learn Fur Elise in this way, next week they'll be playing La Campanella via the same process.

[perfect_pitch]

I've edited your poor language, I guess we supposed to take you seriously on that one, correct?
I've edited your poor language, I guess we're supposed to take you seriously on that one, correct?

The use of the 'F' word is perfectly acceptable, and has been for a long time. Before you lecture me about the proper use of the English language, you can learn how to use it in the proper manner?

[lostinidlewonder]

The use of the 'F' word is perfectly acceptable, and has been for a long time. Before you lecture me about the proper use of the English language, you can learn how to use it in the proper manner?

Again you totally miss the point. You cry over the use of "lol" saying you can't take someone seriously which is just a childish tantrum, while you use swearing in your own responses thinking that's perfectly fine. It's about you applying standards to someone else but having no standards regarding your own behaviour, a close minded and hypocritical attitude which you display not only in this example but in your very own piano teaching ethics.

BTW I speak 3 languages how about you? Oh only one? Lol.

Oh dear look how many people disagree with your educational perspectives, ronde has some great points just included, you better run away with your tail between the legs.

[perfect_pitch]

It's about you applying standards to someone else but having no standards regarding your own behaviour, a close minded and hypocritical attitude which you display not only in this example but in your very own piano teaching ethics.

People also seem to realise that playing by ear has a fundamental flaw. While it is easy to try and learn Grade 1 or 2 pieces by ear and may just be as easy to complete as looking at the sheet music, it is almost INFINITELY harder to do for pieces Grade 8 and above. The harmonic complexities become exponentially harder to work out, so eventually people hit a wall when trying to play by ear... I know this for a fact.

Also, you don't get to criticise my teaching ethics... I'll teach what I truly believe to be the best way to inspire confidence, and instil a strong student-centred discipline that allows them to take the skills I teach them in the lesson and to learn pieces by themself at home by using a careful methodic approach to working out what to do between the sheet music and the piano keyboard...

...and not copy-paste of what a bunch of falling dots tells them to do. That's not 'teaching'.

[lostinidlewonder]

People also seem to realise that playing by ear has a fundamental flaw. While it is easy to try and learn Grade 1 or 2 pieces by ear and may just be as easy to complete as looking at the sheet music, it is almost INFINITELY harder to do for pieces Grade 8 and above. The harmonic complexities become exponentially harder to work out, so eventually people hit a wall when trying to play by ear... I know this for a fact.

Also, you don't get to criticise my teaching ethics... I'll teach what I truly believe to be the best way to inspire confidence, and instil a strong student-centred discipline that allows them to take the skills I teach them in the lesson and to learn pieces by themself at home by using a careful methodic approach to working out what to do between the sheet music and the piano keyboard...

...and not copy-paste of what a bunch of falling dots tells them to do. That's not 'teaching'.

All I hear from this is close mindedness and your own bias supporting your narrow perspectives. Tell me what % of piano students get to grade 8 and above? Your vision is being narrow. You refuse to believe that people actually do process information in different ways and some are better at one way compared to another or use different combinations with different intensitites. Perhaps you should go study a degree in teaching rather than rely on your music qualifications? It is well known that there are thinking types when it comes to learning:

Four Thinking Styles of Perception/Processes
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41550.0

This is an academic viewpoint with much research. You however want to funnel everyone through one hoop, it's just not going to work for everyone and if you don't realise that your experience is lacking. You are only using students that come to you for lessons, what about those who quit lessons with you or the 99.99999999% of other students and self learners out there you have zero understanding of? They all must do the narrow path you teach or are doing it wrong? Ridiculous.

[perfect_pitch]

1) I have a teaching degree in music, and a diploma in performance.

2) I didn't say that people only process information one way. Every single time I've had to clarify this, so you're not even reading what I write.

3) I've said very clearly that one way (use of sheet music) is a methodical approach that when given the tools, can help students work out music for themselves. The falling notes is based on a copy and repeat method which isn't technically teaching and forces the student to be solely reliant on this copy and repeat process... and if they learn a song this way, cant transfer those skills to learn a new piece - they're again reliant on the falling notes. Learning notes,songs and pieces by ear again forces a student to be totally reliant on the teacher (or audio) and the imitation of sound in order to learn... and the method of playing the right notes is by playing repeatedly and constantly eliminating the wrong notes until the right ones are discovered is not a very methodical process of learning.

4) What about the students I've had quit? Well, that's usually due to a number of reasons - some students find it easier to practice on their other instrument and favour that one over the piano. Some learn to love the sound of another instrument instead of the piano. I know I'd never want to learn the flute or the oboe only because there is something beautifully tactile and aesthetic about the piano, plus I love the repertoire for it - it's so vast and eclectic. Many students like the piano but find they have a love for sports more so they don't get to regularly practice. Some students have quit simply because when it gets to the older years in high school - they have to focus on their academic studies if they want to become doctors or physicians or whatnot.

5) Again... not everyone makes it to Grade 8 because of the reasons listed above. Not everyone wants to be a concert pianist, and even then most of them at least get to Grade 8 at another instrument. If you assume that everyone can get to Grade 8 - then that's just naive of you, and if you also assume that if a student quits - it must be the teachers fault... well, that's just plain wrong. You can't brain-wash students into staying at the piano because there's a whole multitude of sports, arts, hobbies and other academic studies pursue but they don't have the time to do everything.

6) You can't lecture me about the 99.999% of the other students either because you don't teach them all either - we can only teach a set amount of students due to the amount of hours in the day/week. I've had 15 years of teaching students, and in that time probably taught over 200 of them in total and found that all of them have had the ability to learn to read the notes. Those that may be reluctant will try and play by ear, but the frustration I see from them desperately trying to get just simple note or chord right by ear is frustrating for them a lot of the time and causes them anxiety. They're constantly getting annoyed when each attempt doesn't get them the right 'sound', YET every time I've gotten them to stop and calm down and work out the note on the music they begin to see the sensibility or using a METHODICAL way of working out the notes instead of random plonking of keys.

7) Hey... if this 'narrow path' (as you call it) helps give the students a methodical, tried and true way of learning and helps bolster their autonomy at the piano; and doesn't rely on a 'rote-playing, copy and repeat ad nauseum method'... well then I'll happily skip down that path.

And just in case you again refuse to read what I write...

I've said very clearly that one way (use of sheet music) is a methodical approach that when given the tools, can help students work out music for themselves... and pointed out the flaws with the falling notes or playing by ear.

I've also said multiple times you do your way and I'll do mine, and I've tried to put this discussion to bed, but you keep attacking my profile as a teacher... and that won't stand. I've made my thoughts about the different teaching styles very prominent as someone who has tried all 3 (to a small extent I tried a few videos with the 'falling notes' years ago when the sheet music wasn't available - this was before Musescore and Scribd) and it was tedious and monotonous.

I'm not going to be insulted further, so I'm not going to bother reading or replying to this thread. You do you and I'll do me... it's worked well for me so far.

[lostinidlewonder]

1) I have a teaching degree in music, and a diploma in performance.

I said teaching degree not music degrees. When studying teaching you learn about different processing in education as a whole.

2) I didn't say that people only process information one way. Every single time I've had to clarify this, so you're not even reading what I write.

Except you've said you teach the "proper" way and lots of other things which tries to elevate sheet music above all other approaches to music.

3) I've said very clearly that one way (use of sheet music) is a methodical approach that when given the tools, can help students work out music for themselves. The falling notes is based on a copy and repeat method which isn't technically teaching and forces the student to be solely reliant on this copy and repeat process... and if they learn a song this way, cant transfer those skills to learn a new piece - they're again reliant on the falling notes. Learning notes,songs and pieces by ear again forces a student to be totally reliant on the teacher (or audio) and the imitation of sound in order to learn... and the method of playing the right notes is by playing repeatedly and constantly eliminating the wrong notes until the right ones are discovered is not a very methodical process of learning.

And here is where your close mindedness is on display again. People using falling notes do see repeating patterns it's not a recreation of the wheel every time. Those who use sheet music are reliant on sheet music, those who use falling notes are reliant on falling notes, both rely on something.

4) What about the students I've had quit? Well, that's usually due to a number of reasons - some students find it easier to practice on their other instrument and favour that one over the piano. Some learn to love the sound of another instrument instead of the piano. I know I'd never want to learn the flute or the oboe only because there is something beautifully tactile and aesthetic about the piano, plus I love the repertoire for it - it's so vast and eclectic. Many students like the piano but find they have a love for sports more so they don't get to regularly practice. Some students have quit simply because when it gets to the older years in high school - they have to focus on their academic studies if they want to become doctors or physicians or whatnot.

Some leave because the work you present them through sight reading has far too much drudgery for them and you can't teach in an alternative method to keep them engaged.

5) Again... not everyone makes it to Grade 8 because of the reasons listed above. Not everyone wants to be a concert pianist, and even then most of them at least get to Grade 8 at another instrument. If you assume that everyone can get to Grade 8 - then that's just naive of you, and if you also assume that if a student quits - it must be the teachers fault... well, that's just plain wrong. You can't brain-wash students into staying at the piano because there's a whole multitude of sports, arts, hobbies and other academic studies pursue but they don't have the time to do everything.

Illogical conclusion  you brought up the grade 8 issue I said you are being narrow minded.

6) You can't lecture me about the 99.999% of the other students either because you don't teach them all either - we can only teach a set amount of students due to the amount of hours in the day/week. I've had 15 years of teaching students, and in that time probably taught over 200 of them in total and found that all of them have had the ability to learn to read the notes. Those that may be reluctant will try and play by ear, but the frustration I see from them desperately trying to get just simple note or chord right by ear is frustrating for them a lot of the time and causes them anxiety. They're constantly getting annoyed when each attempt doesn't get them the right 'sound', YET every time I've gotten them to stop and calm down and work out the note on the music they begin to see the sensibility or using a METHODICAL way of working out the notes instead of random plonking of keys.

I've taught many multiples of students more than you by far. You again miss the point. There is such a large amount of people learning the piano there of course will be those who prefer to avoid sheet music and indeed do much better without it. Open your eyes.

7) Hey... if this 'narrow path' (as you call it) helps give the students a methodical, tried and true way of learning and helps bolster their autonomy at the piano; and doesn't rely on a 'rote-playing, copy and repeat ad nauseum method'... well then I'll happily skip down that path.

Again a narrow minded conclusion. I teach with sheet music and have done so with many students but realise there are also other paths that engage students a lot more. You denigrate those other methods and try to elevate sheet music which is by definition close minded since there are various approached to learning music.

And just in case you again refuse to read what I write...

You are the one talking past points raised to you  and not only by me, this is because you have no ability to debate them since they are sensible and even handed.

I've said very clearly that one way (use of sheet music) is a methodical approach that when given the tools, can help students work out music for themselves... and pointed out the flaws with the falling notes or playing by ear.

This is not the issue, the issue is that you try to say that it's better than everything else and everyone who doesn't use it is learning music in an ineffective inferior manner. That's just being close minded.

I've also said multiple times you do your way and I'll do mine, and I've tried to put this discussion to bed, but you keep attacking my profile as a teacher... and that won't stand.

I'm debating the fact that your close mindedness as a teacher is indefensible. You continue to try and elevate sheet music methods while denigrating other methods. Have a look at your very first response here. You are the one being uneducated.

I've made my thoughts about the different teaching styles very prominent as someone who has tried all 3 (to a small extent I tried a few videos with the 'falling notes' years ago when the sheet music wasn't available - this was before Musescore and Scribd) and it was tedious and monotonous.

So you failed to use them that's not a problem of the system but your capabilities.

I'm not going to be insulted further, so I'm not going to bother reading or replying to this thread. You do you and I'll do me... it's worked well for me so far.

No one insults you, being close minded is just what you are many people are like this because they hold dear the one "true" way they believe in. Humans come packaged with much more variation than to all benefit from a single way, those who think this not true and put down all other ways but one single way are simply close minded.

[transitional]

So I think the TLDR of this argument, when we get rid of arguing, is pretty clear: If you want to enjoy the piano and learn easy pieces just to know how to play something, then fine, use Rousseau or whoever's videos. But besides that, it's always good to learn how to read sheet music eventually, if you plan to take the piano more seriously.

[lostinidlewonder]

So I think the TLDR of this argument, when we get rid of arguing, is pretty clear: If you want to enjoy the piano and learn easy pieces just to know how to play something, then fine, use Rousseau or whoever's videos. But besides that, it's always good to learn how to read sheet music eventually, if you plan to take the piano more seriously.

It is not "always good" at all that is the debate. People can learn and engage with the piano in different ways, what is better for one is not for the other, quite a simple thing to understand. Unfortunately in piano education and other disciplines too, we have highly narrow minds who can't see past their own nose and appreciate that others might learn differently from themselves and do perfectly fine.

[transitional]

I think it's like a universal language. Everyone learns English because it's just an extremely common language. You can, however, survive without it. Sheet music is just one way of notation. If you can understand the theory through Rousseau, sure. It doesn't have to be sheet music as long as it's an effective replacement for sheet music, and frankly, I don't see the "visualization" as an effective replacement. At least with my "narrow mind" I would not be able to write music with these hypermodern notation methods. Just find what works. If you can do what you want with another method, that is fine, but I'm not going to be very interested in it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Although sheet music can transcend spoken language barriers it is still not universal since there are musicians who cannot use it and yet still connect with music at an unimpeded level.

I personally like sheet music a great deal too, this all however has nothing however to do with what we prefer. When discussing the entire human experience of what it means to engage with the piano we need to be open minded because certainly other pathways are much better for certain individuals. I know its hard for some people to think outside of their own experience. I've seen excellent synergy between sheet music and falling notes too, so there is also no need to always consider them utterly segregated from one another either although the intensity in which an individual uses both varies considerably.

[transitional]

I don't want to bring back this argument, but I just found out about Eppur's channel who uses recordings of the great pianists and visualizes them with actual good recordings. Also it means it's not just overplayed virtuoso pieces like La Campanella. Don't get worked up about it, just thought it was food for thought. And I don't want to think what this means for the copyright, at least these videos have better playing

Here's an example:

&index=9

[ravelfan07]

Hey everyone,

I've been seeing these a lot lately, and decided to take a stab.  How does everyone feel about these though? I guess they're supposed to sort of channel the "Guitar Hero" video game experience that seems to be the only way the average person can tolerate something like classical music... am I being too cynical? 

Perhaps these videos are good for learning, because it provides a very clear presentation of what's going on in the music and on the keyboard (although you can't accurately observe what the pianist is doing physically on the z-axis - all the vertical movements and stuff) and of course, none of these "performances" are on a real piano.

 At any rate, it was actually pretty fun to make this and to mess around with a high quality VST piano sample 

Looking forward to comments and discussion on this topic!

M

No issue with them overall, they can be flashy and showy
But I do think pianists can be snobbish to these videos

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Personally, I wouldn't see too many problems with them, if not for the huge fan bases less accomplished people have compared to more accomplished people. Compare the famous Rousseau and the less well known Traum. Traum doesn't even have 1/10th as many subscribers (using that as a measurement of following), despite having much more unique stuff (Grand Galop Chromatique, Petrushka, etc.) and is known to be a concert pianist. Where are Rousseau and Kassia's live performances? Where have they uploaded stuff other than overplayed Liszt? Granted, Rousseau has a few great videos (Mazeppa, Gaspard).
Essentially, the less accomplished pianists are much more popular, which is the only major problem I see. I haven't heard of "Simply Piano," so I can't really judge on that.

[lostinidlewonder]

Personally, I wouldn't see too many problems with them, if not for the huge fan bases less accomplished people have compared to more accomplished people. .... Essentially, the less accomplished pianists are much more popular, which is the only major problem I see.

People, and especially aspiring professional pianists, need to realise that becoming popular and successful has little to do with your skill as a pianist (of course it's important) but more to do with providing something that people didn't know they wanted! Creating something new and engaging has a strong propensity to resonate more deeply with audiences than just technical prowess alone. Too bad they still don't teach this in conservatories around the world as they continue to spew out clone after clone that thinks high exam marks equates to professional success.

[roboute guilliman cfa]

 I don't believe people when they say they are actually learning by this method, they are just saying it as a shield when they post these scuffed recordings. Then people go from 'This is terrible...' to "Oh he learned by watching the synthenesia videos, it's impressive he's not playing even worse.'

So I'm fine with these videos, no harm is being done.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't believe people when they say they are actually learning by this method, they are just saying it as a shield when they post these scuffed recordings. Then people go from 'This is terrible...' to "Oh he learned by watching the synthenesia videos, it's impressive he's not playing even worse.'

So I'm fine with these videos, no harm is being done.

Your post is confusing. You don't believe people learn from it and instead just use it as a reason to encourage people to forgive substandard playing. This is just weird that people would do that.

Also there are many people who do learn from "falling notes". People have different ways to learn, just because you learn one way doesn't mean everyone does. Many people don't actually care if someone plays better than them or not. Not everyone measures their satisfaction solely based on how well they perform compared to others. People find joy in the process of learning, self-expression and creativity without any desire to obsess with comparative benchmarks.

[ranjit]

I don't believe people when they say they are actually learning by this method, they are just saying it as a shield when they post these scuffed recordings. Then people go from 'This is terrible...' to "Oh he learned by watching the synthenesia videos, it's impressive he's not playing even worse.'

So I'm fine with these videos, no harm is being done.

I have learned pieces from these videos, so I can confirm it can be done.

The hardest piece I learned from synthesia was this one:

i=SUnEO2n3Nz6tCvmy

Here's my (shoddy) attempt at it a couple years ago. I haven't seen the score of the piece to this date.

i=knDZEnsf3pU2dM6R

Feel free to ask me anything. I can't understand why people are surprised that one can do this, so I'm curious to hear your perspective.

[transitional]

It makes sense for slower pieces, people that just want to get a feel on the piano. I know someone who improvises on the guitar (quite well) without being able to read sheet music. However, I do feel that sheet music is the most viable way to go with because it doesn't require mass digitization (not everyone reads music on their tablets).

By the way, I'm curious what you guys think of Traum's new videos that aren't synthesia. Obviously they can't compare to Kissin, but I'm glad I can actually see his face now.