Chopin - Op. 10 No. 12 Attempt

[_thepsor]

This is on my school piano... I was wondering if people might be able to give me advice and tell me what they thought and heard. Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you guess how long I've been playing piano and how long I've been playing this piece? Thanks

[_thepsor]

Really any comments whatsoever really appreciated... It's okay if it's harsh too I just want to get better

[lelle]

I really couldn't guess how long you've played! You look a bit tense sometimes, how do your arms and hands feel after playing it?

If I were completely honest, it's difficult to give feedback on specific things, because it seems like you are struggling quite a bit sometimes, and the sixteenths in the left hand sometimes become quite uneven, and that means the piece is simply a bit too difficult at this time. Which is okay! We take our piano journey one step at a time. But you'll benefit a lot more, and develop a lot faster if you play some pieces that are a bit easier and develop your technique. Like there are things I could point out that need improvement, but the improvement that really is needed is that you play some more pieces, get some more experience, develop your technique and then come back to this piece and discover that it's much easier to tackle. Do you have a teacher who can help you with that?

I hope I'm not being too harsh on you, it's clear you love the piece and I don't want to kill your enthusiasm. I just hope that what I'm saying is the most helpful thing for you to hear right now

[_thepsor]

Thank you so much! Midway through the piece my left forearm gets a bit bad, then it feels a bit better, and by the end it feels pretty tired again. I think a lot of the uneveness stems from having learned it more or less a tempo, so that would make sense... Do you have any suggestions for some newer pieces? Currently I primarily play Moonlight Sonata III, Chopin's Waltz in A minor, this piece, and his first Polonaise in G minor... I'd prefer a Chopin piece, as I'm pretty obsessed with him, but anything works! Thanks so much again!!

[_thepsor]

And by the way, I play maybe 4 hours a day so any difficulty you think is suitable for me is great

[_thepsor]

Do you have a teacher who can help you with that?

Sorry forgot to answer this... I do, but we don't focus very much if at all on how to work on lessening tension and they let me choose pieces such as this one above my difficulty level so I am uncertain as to where I really am at...

[lelle]

Thank you so much! Midway through the piece my left forearm gets a bit bad, then it feels a bit better, and by the end it feels pretty tired again. I think a lot of the uneveness stems from having learned it more or less a tempo, so that would make sense...

In my experience the tiredness and the unevenness are related. Tension makes you tired and your playing uneven, and being tired makes it even more uneven. And this is my point - when you have developed your technique, this piece will not feel tiring at all, but comfortable and easy to play at an even faster tempo than what you are doing now. But comfort and ease can't be forced, you have to learn how to do it. So you have that to look forward to, if you feel so inclined 

Do you have any suggestions for some newer pieces? Currently I primarily play Moonlight Sonata III, Chopin's Waltz in A minor, this piece, and his first Polonaise in G minor... I'd prefer a Chopin piece, as I'm pretty obsessed with him, but anything works! Thanks so much again!!

Hmm I'm not a teacher so I'm not that good at suggesting repertoire. But I think you'll find pieces you can manage fine among his Nocturnes, Mazurkas, Waltzes...

It's always a good foundation to play some Bach (see if you like something from his Inventions, Sinfonias or either book of the Well Tempered Clavier), Mozart (check his sonatas), Beethoven (check his sonatas too, Op. 14, 49, 79 are some of the easier ones, his Bagatelles), Clementi (sonatinas/sonatas). It can't hurt to work on your scales and arpeggios - the Revolutionary Etude is basically just a bunch of scales and arpeggios so it'll be much easier if you improve those.

Sorry forgot to answer this... I do, but we don't focus very much if at all on how to work on lessening tension and they let me choose pieces such as this one above my difficulty level so I am uncertain as to where I really am at...

I see! To be completely honest with you, that will hold you back and it's likely you'll not progress as fast or as far as you could do with careful guidance on technique and a sequenced order of pieces. Technique does not necessarily come automatically from playing more and more difficult things, but from learning how to do it comfortably and efficiently. But I'm not saying you shouldn't play things for fun or enjoy yourself! Just keep that in the back of your head.

I hope this is helpful!

[_thepsor]

Thanks so much again! Since I've already begun with this etude do you think there is a way to practice it to bring it to a nice level on the side while practicing scales, arpeggios, and easier pieces primarily, or should I drop it and come back in a few years? If so though, how should I approach that?

[lostinidlewonder]

If you are keen on Chopin etudes it is helpful to play many etudes from Heller and Cramer-Bulow.

[lettersquash]

Thanks so much again! Since I've already begun with this etude do you think there is a way to practice it to bring it to a nice level on the side while practicing scales, arpeggios, and easier pieces primarily, or should I drop it and come back in a few years? If so though, how should I approach that?

There's not a lot I can add to lelle's feedback, but this question prompted me to suggest practising this - and everything else - as slowly as you can. I should say, I'm no expert. I had a few years of lessons as a kid and returned to playing (properly) in my late 50s. I probably wouldn't attempt this piece, but if I did I'd play it very very slowly.

Slow practice is a really important technique, in my view. It gives you time to figure out how to move from one note to the next, and which changes are to be legato (so you can't jump from one to another too abruptly - in other cases, staccato, ends of phrases, etc., you have more freedom to move the hands in between).

It's necessary for figuring out the best fingering, although you seem to have got something there that already works for you. Maybe you practised it slowly already, but your lack of accuracy suggests otherwise. Or maybe you normally play it slower than this, but were trying to get the correct tempo for your "attempt".

I do sometimes try to push the tempo beyond what I can do without mistakes, but only for a while, and then I return to playing it slowly enough for everything to be correct. Faster tempo sometimes helps to hear the rhythm and shape of phrases, etc. - which is why I said play it "as slowly as you can" - it can be difficult to do, but if you persevere it can reveal things about the music that will be important later.

Probably the main reason for playing slowly is that if you rush in any way and get wrong fingering, sloppy timing, missed notes, etc., you're just programming your brain to play it like that, which makes it harder to correct. It's difficult to resist the temptation to push it, especially when I think I should have made more progress by now than I have, but if I force myself to go back to a slower tempo it pays off the next day or week.

Same goes, by the way, for scales and exercises.

I'm also wondering how good your teacher is, if they let you choose any piece you want and don't give you useful directions on how to play it!

I'm curious how long you've been playing and learning this piece. My guess would be uninformed and pretty wild. But, with my background of a few years' lessons, I took about a year to learn pieces much simpler than this to any degree of accuracy.

One last tip - your piano is the wrong way round. The bass should be at the left. 
All the best!
John

[_thepsor]

Thanks so much John!!
I'll make sure to do so, you explained the importance of slow practice really well! I've been wondering, at what point do you up the tempo? Because I often feel I can play it quickly rather early on and then am unsure as to at what point I should do so...

I'm curious how long you've been playing and learning this piece. My guess would be uninformed and pretty wild. But, with my background of a few years' lessons, I took about a year to learn pieces much simpler than this to any degree of accuracy.

I've been "playing" for 10 years probably, meaning that I never practiced, and learned a simple transcription of a piece once a year... that was until a year ago, when I got really excited about classical music and began playing pieces I knew were above my level, and this is one of them... I was wondering what people thought of how long I'd been playing because I'm uncertain as to what level I'd compare to typically due to my unusual situation. This piece though, probably 4 months, not practicing very slowly until recently, a week or two before I posted this.

Thanks so much again!

[brogers70]

I agree with the suggestion of more slow practice. When you are practicing slow, one thing I found quite helpful (a hint from Josh Wright) is to make sure my fingers are landing exactly in the center of the key I'm aiming for. For some reason that seems to carry over into fast tempi automatically, once you've gotten used to it. Pay attention to exactly how things feel when you're getting the center of the keys perfectly and then just aim for the same feeling from then on. Also I'd suggest you shape all those long strings of 16th notes in (mostly) the left hand a bit more. So more differentiation between downbeats and upbeats, more shaping of the rises and falls in the bass line. I don't really think this piece is beyond you, at least not so far beyond you that working on it carefully and slowly wouldn't be worth the effort. I'd say keep at it.

[_thepsor]

I agree with the suggestion of more slow practice. When you are practicing slow, one thing I found quite helpful (a hint from Josh Wright) is to make sure my fingers are landing exactly in the center of the key I'm aiming for. For some reason that seems to carry over into fast tempi automatically, once you've gotten used to it. Pay attention to exactly how things feel when you're getting the center of the keys perfectly and then just aim for the same feeling from then on. Also I'd suggest you shape all those long strings of 16th notes in (mostly) the left hand a bit more. So more differentiation between downbeats and upbeats, more shaping of the rises and falls in the bass line. I don't really think this piece is beyond you, at least not so far beyond you that working on it carefully and slowly wouldn't be worth the effort. I'd say keep at it.

Awesome thanks for the advice!

[brogers70]

One thing I forgot to mention. When you start working on this etude, there's a tendency to think that the key is the LH, because it is so fast and busy. But one of the things the etude is trying to teach, I think, is how to make a less busy melody sing clearly over a fast accompaniment. So I'd suggest spending more time than you might think on the right hand. When there's a two note slur in the right hand, make sure it sounds like a real two note slur, no matter how fast the LH is moving underneath it. And work on playing the LH softer than you think you should. One good place to practice that is measures 37-40; make sure that you hear the right hand as a long line extending smoothly over those four bars, without letting all the activity in the LH overwhelm it.

[geopianoincanada]

Holy smokes!! That was amazing!

I tried recording myself once. I can't play for a camera, I get so tense that I just slow to a snail's pace.

[fignewton]

Congrats on your playing so far which has a lot of great things already. I agree with what other posters have said.. slow practice and evenness is the key to success imo. Regarding your question of when to increase the tempo, I personally like to do slow practice with a metronome, and I only increase the tempo by a couple clicks if I am consistently playing evenly in rhythm and tone. For example, I would run a small section of this etude around 50=quarter note, try to get that section even and repeat it that way 3x in a row, then increase to 52 and do the same process. If a mistake is made/things get uneven, I drop by two clicks. To get from 50 to 60 (or up to the performance tempo) in this way takes a lot of patience, but it can be really helpful. I usually will reach a plateau in tempo, work on different rep for a couple months, then try the piece again.