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Topic: How slow is slow practice for you?  (Read 3955 times)

Offline anacrusis

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How slow is slow practice for you?
on: May 11, 2022, 12:32:52 PM
I was thinking a bit about my practice habits today. I realized that it's rare that I practice really, really slowly, but rather, most of my practice happens in a moderate tempo, slightly below the edge of whatever speed I feel in full control. Contrast that to the anecdote of Rachmaninoff practicing Chopin's "thirds" etude so slowly that somebody who overheard him did not recognize the piece. So I'm just curious, from professionals and amateurs alike on this forum, what is your typical slow practice tempo? How slow is it? What benefits do you feel you derive from it vs. practicing a bit faster?
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Offline bwl_13

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #1 on: May 11, 2022, 03:41:09 PM
Slow to me is about half tempo and sometimes less. It depends on the passage, but sometimes it's very helpful to play at even 1/8th speed in order to get precise articulation in Bach fugues or other intricate contrapuntal passages.

Slow practice is only good if it has a purpose. If you're only playing slow because you think it'll be good for you, it's likely not going to do much. If you're practicing slow to focus on other things and break the piece down into more manageable chunks, then it definitely works.
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Offline nightwindsonata

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #2 on: May 11, 2022, 06:10:31 PM
I typically use slow practice when disentangling a tricky passage or sight-reading. I find that breaking down the beats into tiny chunks at tempo (or near-tempo) is much more useful to obtain a final product, though in something dense and awkward like Rachmaninoff one often has to work up to full tempo, even in those small chunks.
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Offline brogers70

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #3 on: May 11, 2022, 07:37:13 PM
For me, it depends on what the slow practice is for. If I've learned a piece and it feels pretty comfortable, but falls apart when I try to bring it up to tempo, then I practice "slowly" at a tempo slow enough that it feels calm and relaxed, and just do that until it feels solid, before working on bringing the tempo up. If there's a passage that makes me tense or feels awkward, then I practice the hard section very, very slowly, maybe even relaxing everything for a second or two between each note. That sometimes helps me figure out how to stay relaxed when playing it at a more normal speed.
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Offline ranjit

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #4 on: May 11, 2022, 09:56:17 PM
I almost never think of it as slow practice. It's usually a certain movement that needs to be isolated and thought about in more detail. And it's like I'm thinking about that movement frame-by-frame, taking it back to the workshop and honing it. Then, when I get back to playing, I play it at almost full speed (it may be 75% or so instead of full speed).
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Offline bwl_13

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #5 on: May 12, 2022, 03:51:53 AM
Quote from: ranjit on May 11, 2022, 09:56:17 PM
I almost never think of it as slow practice. It's usually a certain movement that needs to be isolated and thought about in more detail. And it's like I'm thinking about that movement frame-by-frame, taking it back to the workshop and honing it. Then, when I get back to playing, I play it at almost full speed (it may be 75% or so instead of full speed).
I really like this description. I can definitely apply this to how I think of slow practice. Sometimes the word "slow" makes you think differently, but if you use the same movement you'd use at tempo then you can isolate that much better.
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Offline anacrusis

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #6 on: May 12, 2022, 10:08:04 PM
Interesting answers! So none of you typically do slow practice where you play an entire piece in a very slow tempo?
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Offline bwl_13

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #7 on: May 14, 2022, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: anacrusis on May 12, 2022, 10:08:04 PM
Interesting answers! So none of you typically do slow practice where you play an entire piece in a very slow tempo?
I've done this before. I found it to be beneficial only in the final phases of polishing a piece. It gives me an idea of where any remaining problem areas are, and if I'm able to keep a piece engaging throughout in a very slow tempo then I know I'm in a good place.
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Offline nightwindsonata

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #8 on: May 14, 2022, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: anacrusis on May 12, 2022, 10:08:04 PM
Interesting answers! So none of you typically do slow practice where you play an entire piece in a very slow tempo?

It depends on where I am with my piece. With piece that is very slow already, I find slower practice to only be marginally helpful. However, with a fast piece (such as the Beethoven Sonata Op. 31 No. 3, my current recital project), you can never have to much slow practice. It is especially helpful if you do it with the metronome, and the score, carefully digesting every note. Likewise, running through it slowly, from memory, is an excellent way to ensure long-term retention. However, these methods are most helpful when one has already learned the notes of the piece. In my opinion, one should first learn it measure by measure, at or near tempo, and then commence slow practice to bind the whole thing together. I also find segmented slow practice to be helpful with memorizing--if I work on the memory in half-tempo, then I am not simply relying on a short-term muscle memory, but instead committing the work into my brain. That has been my process for my latest side-project, Fantasie Impromptu; I will let you know how it goes.
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Offline lelle

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #9 on: May 16, 2022, 06:43:45 PM
Quote from: anacrusis on May 12, 2022, 10:08:04 PM
Interesting answers! So none of you typically do slow practice where you play an entire piece in a very slow tempo?

I was taught to practice that way by my first teacher rbut honestly I find it terribly boring and can rarely force myself to do so. :/
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Offline brogers70

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #10 on: May 16, 2022, 06:59:35 PM
My teacher told me that slow practice was very important, so important that she did 85% of her practice at very slow tempos. The strange thing is that over nine years of weekly lessons I never managed to arrive at her house except during the 15% of the time she was practicing up to tempo.
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Offline anacrusis

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #11 on: May 24, 2022, 01:00:22 PM
Quote from: brogers70 on May 16, 2022, 06:59:35 PM
My teacher told me that slow practice was very important, so important that she did 85% of her practice at very slow tempos. The strange thing is that over nine years of weekly lessons I never managed to arrive at her house except during the 15% of the time she was practicing up to tempo.

In my own experience as a teacher I know I'm guilty of sometimes teaching my students to do things I wish I did, but that I often don't do, hoping I will at least be able to teach them to be more disciplined even if I myself am not. Haha, it's my guilty little secret! I wonder if she was the same? :)
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Offline anacrusis

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #12 on: May 24, 2022, 01:02:47 PM
Quote from: nightwindsonata on May 14, 2022, 06:53:17 PM
It depends on where I am with my piece. With piece that is very slow already, I find slower practice to only be marginally helpful. However, with a fast piece (such as the Beethoven Sonata Op. 31 No. 3, my current recital project), you can never have to much slow practice. It is especially helpful if you do it with the metronome, and the score, carefully digesting every note. Likewise, running through it slowly, from memory, is an excellent way to ensure long-term retention. However, these methods are most helpful when one has already learned the notes of the piece. In my opinion, one should first learn it measure by measure, at or near tempo, and then commence slow practice to bind the whole thing together. I also find segmented slow practice to be helpful with memorizing--if I work on the memory in half-tempo, then I am not simply relying on a short-term muscle memory, but instead committing the work into my brain. That has been my process for my latest side-project, Fantasie Impromptu; I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for sharing your experience, it's interesting to hear - I have gathered you are a student at a music college right now? Learning measure by measure near the full tempo sounds interesting, I might try that! Please let us know how you are progressing with the Fantasie Impromptu! :)
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Offline passaas3

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #13 on: May 30, 2022, 10:13:52 AM
I almost never think of it as slow practice. It's usually a certain movement that needs to be isolated and thought about in more detail.   vidmate apk mobdro download
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Offline mad_max2024

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #14 on: May 30, 2022, 01:58:32 PM
Slow practice for me is usually as slow as it takes to get everything like I want it to be.
I usually try to get everything right first (technique, phrasing, articulations, etc.) at a slow speed and only when everything feels right do I increase the speed with the metronome.
Speed is always the last thing I worry about. Everything else is usually more important to me.
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Offline anacrusis

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #15 on: May 31, 2022, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: passaas3 on May 30, 2022, 10:13:52 AM
I almost never think of it as slow practice. It's usually a certain movement that needs to be isolated and thought about in more detail.

Interesting. I felt inspired to try this on some Etudes I'm working on, just working on one figure or bar very slowly and considering the movements. Thanks for sharing!

Quote from: mad_max2024 on May 30, 2022, 01:58:32 PM
Slow practice for me is usually as slow as it takes to get everything like I want it to be.
I usually try to get everything right first (technique, phrasing, articulations, etc.) at a slow speed and only when everything feels right do I increase the speed with the metronome.
Speed is always the last thing I worry about. Everything else is usually more important to me.


Interesting! I feel similarly but often end up doing this work in like a comfortable mid-tempo rather than slowly.
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Offline jamienc

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #16 on: June 01, 2022, 09:24:13 PM
Slow practice is a very tricky technique for learning a piece or learning the physical requirements that will make a difficult passage work. Firstly, there must be a very specific goal as to why you are practicing slow. Playing 2/3 of the final tempo you seek just to say you’ve practiced slow is not nearly good enough reason for doing it. Secondly, I’ve mentioned this in a couple of other comment forums elsewhere, but slow practice absolutely must replicate the same technical requirements you will need at the faster tempo. For me, the whole point of practicing slow is to gradually encourage the body to be accurate with the musical demands (such as articulation, dynamics, complicated polyphonic areas, etc.) so that the body reacts properly when tempo increases. Here are a few of the conscious goals I always have when practicing slow with anything I decide to perform:

1. Attack and release the key to create even space between the notes in the texture.
2. Keep the wrist loose and activate the finger.
3. Do position changes occur smoothly?
4. Do fingering choices allow for symmetrical usage as a landmark? For example, is there a place where the indexes meet to provide a mental marker?
5. The faster the tempo, the lighter and more detached the notes will need to be performed.
Et cetera…

Hope this helps!
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Offline roncesvalles

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #17 on: November 28, 2022, 05:15:42 PM
I practice slow for a couple of reasons.  The most common reason I do this is to start off with as little tension as possible.  The second is a mixture of kinaesthetic and sonic, particularly in a piece with counterpoint--to both get it under my fingers and to work out the balancing of voices.

Last year I learned Chopin's Op. 28 no. 10.   At first I tried to just will myself through it, but the sound was heavy, while the piece is marked leggiero.  So I practiced it for a day almost absurdly slow with light finger staccato, pianissimo, letting my fingers relax after sounding each individual note.  The next day I played nonlegato and focused on smoothness, first slow and then ramping up the tempo, working beat by beat.  And the following day I put it together, and the result was so much better than when I started off playing close to tempo with a sound that wasn't acceptable.   Building up from a place of relaxation helps me get the sound I want, and I'm not baking tension into my muscle memory for the piece.

For the second kind of slow practice, I'm current working on Émile-Robert Blanchet's Op 53 no. 1--an etude for the left hand solo that generally involves thirds played successively with fingers 3-2 and 4-1 while 5 accompanies the thirds with longer note values.  There are a lot of different articulations--nonlegato, legato--some stretches of 9ths that have to immediately collapse in the allegro tempo to tighter positions, and a few jumps involved--all of which make smoothness and voicing difficult, so slow practice really helps me balance everything out and focus on precision.  The actual writing of the piece involves pretty much the same figuration, so articulation really makes the different sections of the piece what they are, and it's easy to lose that when I get overconfident and just try to zoom through the whole thing.   This kind of slow practice is less about the mechanics of playing and more about ensuring I can achieve the sound I want, so I have a good standard and awareness of nuances as I approach getting the piece to speed.



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Offline happy notes

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #18 on: November 28, 2022, 08:29:44 PM
Slow practice means playing at a speed where it is possible for you to make absolutely NO mistakes. 
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Offline droprenstein

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #19 on: November 28, 2022, 09:55:54 PM
My slow practice speed depends on the piece. If I'm playing a section or piece that's already slow, then it's more helpful for me to play at full speed or 90% to work out articulation such. But if I'm playing a much faster piece, like Rachmaninoff 39/1, I'll practice usually at some 15-20% speed and slowly work up to full speed.
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Offline anacrusis

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #20 on: November 29, 2022, 02:20:35 PM
Quote from: happy notes on November 28, 2022, 08:29:44 PM
Slow practice means playing at a speed where it is possible for you to make absolutely NO mistakes.

That's funny, I'm guaranteed to make at least one blunder regardless of tempo ;) But I think I do have a quasi ADHD like issue with controlling my focus.
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Offline comma

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #21 on: December 05, 2022, 07:39:30 PM
Quote from: happy notes on November 28, 2022, 08:29:44 PM
Slow practice means playing at a speed where it is possible for you to make absolutely NO mistakes.
Slow practice means playing at a speed where it is possible for you not to REPEAT (i.e. learn) mistakes. But remember: Mistakes are not only wrong notes. Anything that is not 100% in line with your musical intention is a mistake. If you practice with such a high artistic aspiration, it can never be boring.
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Offline ranjit

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #22 on: December 05, 2022, 08:14:46 PM
I often play at the minimum speed I can go at while still hearing all of the phrasing and other details.
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Offline timothy42b

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #23 on: December 06, 2022, 01:15:37 PM
Quote from: happy notes on November 28, 2022, 08:29:44 PM
Slow practice means playing at a speed where it is possible for you to make absolutely NO mistakes.

What speed would that have been for Rachmaninoff?
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Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #24 on: December 06, 2022, 02:15:31 PM
Quote from: timothy42b on December 06, 2022, 01:15:37 PM
What speed would that have been for Rachmaninoff?

Maybe I should be less cryptic.

When Rachmaninof played slowly at, say, MM = 40, he did so with the identical technique that he would use at 160.  Or maybe 260, given it was him.

When a beginner plays slowly at MM = 40, he uses technique that maybe, just maybe, might reach 55.  The trouble is it is intuitive to play 100 times at 40, 100 times at 41, etc., until that incorrect technique is burned in so firmly it is difficult to unlearn.  Sometimes impossible. 

If you play slowly enough to not make a mistake, I think maybe you are defining mistake as a wrong note.  But a mistake can be the wrong technique on the right note. 
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Offline lelle

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #25 on: December 06, 2022, 03:04:55 PM
Quote from: timothy42b on December 06, 2022, 02:15:31 PM
Maybe I should be less cryptic.

When Rachmaninof played slowly at, say, MM = 40, he did so with the identical technique that he would use at 160.  Or maybe 260, given it was him.

When a beginner plays slowly at MM = 40, he uses technique that maybe, just maybe, might reach 55.  The trouble is it is intuitive to play 100 times at 40, 100 times at 41, etc., until that incorrect technique is burned in so firmly it is difficult to unlearn.  Sometimes impossible. 

If you play slowly enough to not make a mistake, I think maybe you are defining mistake as a wrong note.  But a mistake can be the wrong technique on the right note.

Very good point. I was initially just taught to practice slow, but not the technique needed to play fast. So my slow practice did not save me from technical issues when trying to speed up before I improved my technique across the board so I knew what technique I was trying to develop when working slowly.
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Offline roncesvalles

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #26 on: December 06, 2022, 07:16:11 PM
Does anyone ever practice faster than the piece's target tempo?

After I get a feel for a piece, if something's to be played leggiero and isn't technical in a way where I need to be vigilant about tension, I often play through it faster (and louder) than I would in performing the piece.  Then doing it at tempo and at a softer dynamic feels like a breeze.  But maybe this is mostly psychological.
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Offline brogers70

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Re: How slow is slow practice for you?
Reply #27 on: December 06, 2022, 08:18:53 PM
Quote from: roncesvalles on December 06, 2022, 07:16:11 PM
Does anyone ever practice faster than the piece's target tempo?

After I get a feel for a piece, if something's to be played leggiero and isn't technical in a way where I need to be vigilant about tension, I often play through it faster (and louder) than I would in performing the piece.  Then doing it at tempo and at a softer dynamic feels like a breeze.  But maybe this is mostly psychological.

Definitely agree. What I usually do is warm up a bit, and then go straight for a too fast tempo, even knowing that I'll flub some notes. Then when I do flub, I go again, at the too fast tempo, and often find that the mistakes have fixed themselves, maybe because the body has been shocked into figuring out how to move more efficiently. Then I play through several times, each time slower than the last until I get a good bit below my target tempo. I find this works better than the opposite approach of going slowly at first and then gradually building up speed during the practice session. Doing it with progressively increasing speed, for me anyway, often leads to progressively increasing tension.
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