Need Teachers!

[jpahmad]

The interaction on this forum has been very helpful to me over the past decade since I started my own business.  I respect a lot of the professionals here.  That being said, does anyone on this forum want to move to Austin and teach piano for $32-$40/hour?  I have a never ending stream of students (currently teach about 60 kids myself throughout the week) and can't recruit any qualified staff.  All the applicants either can't teach (to my standards at least) or don't want to work for what I offer.  It's like "boomtown" here and I can't handle the demand all by myself.  Where are all the music degree graduates?  All working a coffee shops?  Am I missing something here?

[lelle]

If teachers at the level you are looking for don't want to teach for the rates you offer, don't you need to offer higher rates? It seems like the only logical conclusion to me.

[keypeg]

T That being said, does anyone on this forum want to move to Austin and teach piano for $32-$40/hour?  I have a never ending stream of students (currently teach about 60 kids myself throughout the week) and can't recruit any qualified staff. 

Isn't that on the low side?  I paid $35/hour almost 20 years ago, and it was a special price because we were quite poor at the time.  I'm reading that fees go between $40 - 60, or $50 - 70.  I wonder if price is part of your problem.

[bwl_13]

I agree with others. The price seems a little low for a rate that music degree graduates, especially those with Masters or PhDs. It could be that you've just got the lowest rates for your qualifications.

[jpahmad]

I'm a neighborhood piano studio.  Based on what I charge, I don't see how I can pay someone $60/hour.  I also know that I charge pretty much industry standard and many of my students won't be able to afford that much of an increase.  These are mostly middle class families.  The applicants that are turning down $40/hour for potentially 25 hours a week must have other attractive alternatives I suppose.  I wonder what those are.  Tech industry?

[lelle]

I'm a neighborhood piano studio.  Based on what I charge, I don't see how I can pay someone $60/hour.  I also know that I charge pretty much industry standard and many of my students won't be able to afford that much of an increase.  These are mostly middle class families.  The applicants that are turning down $40/hour for potentially 25 hours a week must have other attractive alternatives I suppose.  I wonder what those are.  Tech industry?

I see a potential option that they're teaching in their own business for $50/hour?

[jpahmad]

But then why are they asking me for a job? 

[ranjit]

But then why are they asking me for a job?

They may be asking around and selecting the best offer they get, don't you think?

[bwl_13]

But then why are they asking me for a job?

You also offer the guarantee of being able to send students their way since you have built up a reputation.

In my area of Ontario, the industry standard for a teacher with a solid reputation and the typical qualifications you'd imagine (music degree, RCM certification etc.) is ~$60 CAD, but that's on the low side. I'm speaking only from personal experience and have 0 data to back this up so take that as you will.

What do you expect from your teachers? You say you've had to reject applicants who are under qualified but also have had qualified applicants lose interest. What sorts of qualifications do they need and how much experience?

I would be happy to take $32-40 USD to teach, but I'm a student and I live in Canada so that's unlikely to say the least...

[ranjit]

Also, I believe Austin is a rather expensive city to live in. Taking that into account, I think your rates are just too low. There's enough demand that someone with a Masters degree in piano should be able to advertise themselves and get students who they can charge more.

[keypeg]

jpahmad, in view of problem-solving:

- If you are paying teachers, and student/parents are paying you, then you also need to make a profit as well as pay for the costs for running your premises.  Therefore if you pay a teacher $35, for example, you are not charging the student $35, but more than that, would that be correct?  (I imagine a good teacher can set up their own studio and charge the full amount that you charge students.)

- Conversely, what do you offer teachers to make them want to teach at your facility rather than their own studio?  Given that they will be paid a relatively low amount?

- What are the standards or the things that you expect from teachers?  I.e. you say that some don't meet your expectations.  What kinds of expectations might that be?

[brogers70]

jpahmad, in view of problem-solving:
- Conversely, what do you offer teachers to make them want to teach at your facility rather than their own studio?  Given that they will be paid a relatively low amount?

In my rural, middle-of-nowhere area, the going rate for piano lessons is $60/ hour. So if you are paying teachers $32-40/hr, they are forgoing $20-28/hr that they would get teaching independently. What are you offering them in terms of support that would make it worth their while to give up such a significant fraction of their potential income?

[jpahmad]

In my rural, middle-of-nowhere area, the going rate for piano lessons is $60/ hour. So if you are paying teachers $32-40/hr, they are forgoing $20-28/hr that they would get teaching independently. What are you offering them in terms of support that would make it worth their while to give up such a significant fraction of their potential income?

Consistent work.  I can fill their schedules very quickly.  5 hours a day at $40/hour is not bad.  I handle all the parents and payments so they don't have to deal with that.  I pay for the recitals.  It's steady and consistent work. 

give up such a significant fraction of their potential income?

But, are they really making that income per hour consistently?  I may be wrong, but that is very unusual to do unless they work for themselves.  It it's not easy to grow a reputation and gene pool of students like I have over the past decade.

[jpahmad]

- Conversely, what do you offer teachers to make them want to teach at your facility rather than their own studio?  Given that they will be paid a relatively low amount?

Consistent work.  I can fill their schedules very quickly.  5 hours a day at $40/hour is not bad.  I handle all the parents and payments so they don't have to deal with that.  I pay for the recitals.  It's steady and consistent work. 





- What are the standards or the things that you expect from teachers?  I.e. you say that some don't meet your expectations.  What kinds of expectations might that be?

Well, let's say I have a recital.  My students go up and perform their pieces alongside the students of the other teacher (who I hired).  There should be some relative consistency in the teaching results right.  Otherwise the parents will be scratching their heads and wonder why one group is significantly less developed than the other, yet everyone is paying the same price. 

So, I know that seems obvious, but I have had "over-qualified" teachers who simply can't teach.  Yet they cost the most.  That's not good for business.

On the other hand, I have taken younger kids (in college or just out of college) who may not even have any prior knowledge in piano pedagogy, and trained them myself.  They've got better, more consistent results.  But, it's hard to find these types who are reliable.  And, their schedules are always wacky.

On another note, my wife calls up one of the universities here and asks for recommendations.  That had, out of the entire program, only one kid!  I scooped him up and he is great, but he is going abroad for a whole year in the Fall.   What are these universities charging money for if the end result of four years of higher education is only being able to recommend one kid out of their entire teaching program?   She literally told my wife that she can't recommend anyone else.  what?

[jpahmad]

jpahmad, in view of problem-solving:



- What are the standards or the things that you expect from teachers?  I.e. you say that some don't meet your expectations.  What kinds of expectations might that be?

Well, let's say I have a recital.  My students go up and perform their pieces alongside the students of the other teacher (who I hired).  There should be some relative consistency in the teaching results right.  Otherwise the parents will be scratching their heads and wonder why one group is significantly less developed than the other, yet everyone is paying the same price. 

So, I know that seems obvious, but I have had "over-qualified" teachers who simply can't teach.  Yet they cost the most.  That's not good for business.

On the other hand, I have taken younger kids (in college or just out of college) who may not even have any prior knowledge in piano pedagogy, and trained them myself.  They've got better, more consistent results.  But, it's hard to find these types who are reliable.  And, their schedules are always wacky.

On another note, my wife calls up one of the universities here and asks for recommendations.  That had, out of the entire program, only one kid!  I scooped him up and he is great, but he is going abroad for a whole year in the Fall.   What are these universities charging money for if the end result of four years of higher education is only being able to recommend one kid out of their entire teaching program?   She literally told my wife that she can't recommend anyone else.  what?

[brogers70]

Simply put, the teachers who are willing to work for what you pay do not meet your standards and the teachers who meet your standards are not willing to work for what you pay. You either have to lower your standards or pay more.

These days, that's not a problem unique to piano teaching. For at least 40 years employers have been in a strong position of power with respect to employees (pretty much since Reagan broke the air traffic controllers' strike); the pandemic and other factors have shifted the power towards the employees. There's nothing wrong with graduates these days, it's just that the balance of power has shifted and employers who got used to having the upper hand for many years have to adapt.

[keypeg]

A few things here:

Consistent work.  I can fill their schedules very quickly.  5 hours a day at $40/hour is not bad.

While I'm a trained teacher, I am in a different profession as a solopreneur these days.  Some similarities is that we have people who practice the profession without training in the field, at a less professional level, and others who are highly qualified and competent.  It's the same confusing scenario as private one-on-one teaching.

In my profession, I can try to get my own clients (and I do), or I can work for a middleman - called agencies or companies.  They're well advertised, very visible, and have an admin structured centered on interacting with interested clients.  And so theoretically, there's an advantage to go with them (same reason as yours).  These middlemen contact me, and offer me "consistent work" - but I need to lower my fees substantially.  Sometimes it's 50% of what I charge.  My argument is that not only do I need to work twice as hard to earn the same amount of money; but with "regular, consistent work" keeping me busy, I'd have to say no to my clients who will pay me double.  And having built a reputation, I do have those clients.  It is the inexperienced novice who does not yet have the reputation and clients who is most likely to be enticed.   I suppose the same is true in your case.

The $40/hour - isn't, really.  I mean, I've taught, both in the classroom and later one-on-one.  A decent teacher often does prep work.  That one hour lesson may be 90 hours between the lesson, and the preparation of material and whatever.  If the teacher responds to student questions in between, maybe altogether it may be 2 hours all told.

   I handle all the parents and payments so they don't have to deal with that. 

That of course can be a plus.

Well, let's say I have a recital.  My students go up and perform their pieces alongside the students of the other teacher (who I hired).  There should be some relative consistency in the teaching results right.  Otherwise the parents will be scratching their heads and wonder why one group is significantly less developed than the other, yet everyone is paying the same price. 

Here I had a note of caution.  On the question of expectations there are many things you didn't list.  Such as skills.

About recitals.   When my child started lessons, initially the teacher taught at a "place".  There were biannual recitals.  The teachers were pressured to show "fast progress".  I remember the 6 year old who broke down trying to sing Ave Maria.  Our teacher went slower, and solidly, by comparison.  What I heard, as someone with an ear, is that this "easier" music was being played well, with assurance - the kids appeared well taught.  But that might not have been the overall impression.

About recitals again: A child can be rehearsing a small number of pieces - maybe only one or two - and then shine in the recitals, giving the teacher and the school a stellar reputation.  Later as a transfer student, the new teacher discovers a bunch of things this child never learned to do.  But boy, those 8 pieces learned over 4 years, aren't they amazing!

You are right, however, that credentials - pieces of paper - will not necessarily reflect the quality of the teacher or that the teacher can teach.  Those of us who are students are faced with that same problem.

For your situation, do you have teacher right now whom you have retained - who have stayed with you for a couple of years and thus must be satisfied, who could try to pass on to good teachers they may know, that you have open spots?

An afterthought:  From time to time we hear from teachers who teach at a "place" and sometimes they don't seem to have freedom to choose.  For example, they are assigned students and don't have a say.  Or may be told how they should teach, or what.  Such a thing might attract learner students, but be a no-go for seasoned professionals.

Just throwing things out there.

[jpahmad]

Simply put, the teachers who are willing to work for what you pay do not meet your standards and the teachers who meet your standards are not willing to work for what you pay. You either have to lower your standards or pay more.

No, I think you reversed what I said. The ones who have met my standards so far, are willing to work for less than premium price.  However, they have goofy schedules (in college) that make consistency difficult because they are students.  The ones who have not met my standards and don't seem willing to change their methods, want more money.  I have no problem paying $50/hour if I don't have to train them and they already get good results.  This has not been the case in my experience though. 

But you're right, I guess I have to just re-calibrate my expectations.  I may just be out of touch with reality.

These days, that's not a problem unique to piano teaching. For at least 40 years employers have been in a strong position of power with respect to employees (pretty much since Reagan broke the air traffic controllers' strike); the pandemic and other factors have shifted the power towards the employees. There's nothing wrong with graduates these days, it's just that the balance of power has shifted and employers who got used to having the upper hand for many years have to adapt.

I don't really subscribe to the post-modern Marxist analysis of markets because I finished college before they really pushed that indoctrination hard.  I've always viewed the employer/employee relationship as a win-win negotiation.  And, I'm willing to negotiate.  The other option is just to not care and make my money and not hire anyone.  I'm doing fine on my own.  Just thought that I would share my ability to pull students from the community for someone who needs the work and can do a good job.  If they don't need it, well, more power to them. 

That being said, I've actually had success with kids right out of high school who still live at home and don't have student debt.  I'll just have to stick to that demographic.  I appreciate the insight though everyone.  Thanks for responding to my thread!

[jpahmad]

In my profession, I can try to get my own clients (and I do), or I can work for a middleman - called agencies or companies.  They're well advertised, very visible, and have an admin structured centered on interacting with interested clients.  And so theoretically, there's an advantage to go with them (same reason as yours).  These middlemen contact me, and offer me "consistent work" - but I need to lower my fees substantially.  Sometimes it's 50% of what I charge.

Yeah, I worked for Musika about 15 years ago before I started my own studio, and they took a huge chunk.  Maybe I made $25/hour.  That was back then though.  I don't know what they pay now.  I Also had to drive everywhere I taught.  I was also working as a substitute teacher during the day as well and because I didn't have the size of the bills that I have today, this arrangement worked for a year or so.  I'm pretty sure that Musika wasn't paying me $40/hour though. 

[jpahmad]

A decent teacher often does prep work.

That's just it.  Most of them use method books and just go from one page to the next.  There is no prep work from them.  They literally just guide them through the book.  When I became aware of this, it horrified me greatly.  These are the seasoned teachers that I have experienced so far.  I think my standards are too high.

Keypeg, given everything I explained about my situation.  What would you do if you were in my shoes?  I don't need to expand, I can just teach myself and enjoy a huge waiting list.  But I could share the gene pool of students I have built up over the years with other people who would like to do work in the music education profession.  Can I find the win-win?  What would be your strategy.  Just know I will contemplate your advice very seriously.  Thanks for the help.

[brogers70]

No, I think you reversed what I said. The ones who have met my standards so far, are willing to work for less than premium price.  However, they have goofy schedules (in college) that make consistency difficult because they are students.  The ones who have not met my standards and don't seem willing to change their methods, want more money.  I have no problem paying $50/hour if I don't have to train them and they already get good results.  This has not been the case in my experience though. 

I was responding to your statement "All the applicants either can't teach (to my standards at least) or don't want to work for what I offer." Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Also, I think it is hardly post-modern and Marxist to notice that the interests of employees and employers are not identical, and that there is a power dynamic between them. Even as solid a capitalist as Adam ("Invisible Hand") Smith recognized that the interests of labor and management were at odds.

[keypeg]

Keypeg, given everything I explained about my situation.  What would you do if you were in my shoes?  I don't need to expand, I can just teach myself and enjoy a huge waiting list.  But I could share the gene pool of students I have built up over the years with other people who would like to do work in the music education profession.  Can I find the win-win?  What would be your strategy.  Just know I will contemplate your advice very seriously.  Thanks for the help.

In my present profession I've sometimes been asked to go in an area I don't, or I was booked up.  That could have been the time to become a middleman / form an agency.  That gets way too complicated when you have professional standards.  I sometimes pass on work to colleagues whose work quality I know well enough and the relationship is between the client and the colleague - I'm out of the picture.  i don't want the agro, and I don't have the training or temperament to become an admin.  That is, I did once mentor and train someone - having been a teacher first, that sort of came naturally.  That person was an assistant of sorts for a while, and then less and less as he found his own feet.

[jpahmad]

In my present profession I've sometimes been asked to go in an area I don't, or I was booked up.  That could have been the time to become a middleman / form an agency.  That gets way too complicated when you have professional standards.  I sometimes pass on work to colleagues whose work quality I know well enough and the relationship is between the client and the colleague - I'm out of the picture.  i don't want the agro, and I don't have the training or temperament to become an admin.  That is, I did once mentor and train someone - having been a teacher first, that sort of came naturally.  That person was an assistant of sorts for a while, and then less and less as he found his own feet.

That's pretty much what I have did with this last kid that I hired.  He's young and willing to learn.  I had him observe/assist me for an entire month, for which I paid him of course, and I also made tutorial videos for each piece I use in my curriculum.  He was very delighted with a lot of the teaching concepts and told me that he never got that kind of insight from college.  I feel confident now that he "get's it" and will be ok on his own with a new student.  Unfortunately he is leaving for London, England in the Fall and won't be back till the Spring.  I hope I will see a return on my investment with him eventually.  Who knows, he may just not come back.  I told him that it rains a lot in London and it's dreary. Lol.  Didn't work. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Your best bet is most likely social media. Facebook has numerous music teacher groups, find one specific for your area. I run the one for my city and surrounding areas and there is constant work being shared on there I am sure you will find the same.

When running a music business where you are getting clients for teachers it is generally best you don't hound the teachers and inspect in great details their teaching method, nor should you enforce them to teach in your way. Results simply speak for themself, if a teacher retains the students for multiple semesters then they are doing a good job. When you are passing students off to another teacher they are no longer your students and you thus should trust your teachers you hire to do a good job in whatever way works best for them. Micromanaging each and every student and teacher is just a little crazy imho.

If however you insist teachers teach exactly as you want then the pool of selections will shrink dramatically and you generally will only attract people who are new to the teaching profession. Unless you have some ground breaking system that blows the mind of experienced teachers you really will struggle in general to get knowledgeable teachers on board. I would say most experienced teachers would feel somewhat insulted if they must teach in a certain manner and they would be much more effective teaching in a manner they are well versed in. Relaxed teachers provide better service.

[jpahmad]

When running a music business where you are getting clients for teachers it is generally best you don't hound the teachers and inspect in great details their teaching method, nor should you enforce them to teach in your way. Results simply speak for themself, if a teacher retains the students for multiple semesters hen they are doing a good job. When you are passing students off to another teacher they are no longer your students and you thus should trust your teachers you hire to do a good job in whatever way works best for them. Micromanaging each and every student and teacher is just a little crazy imho.

Yeah, I would never do that.  Once I hire someone, unless there is some kind of agreement that they use my method, I just leave them alone.  I would absolutely hate someone peaking in on me and critiquing every little thing. 

The only problem though, is the results.  They don't have decent retention (maybe 2 years max on average).  Most all my students stay for over 5 years (from beginning) and many until they finish high school.  That's "cradle to grave" as I call it.  I would just like to keep that retention consistent for everyone who works for me.  Maybe not possible or realistic. 

On the other hand, I just might have to stick with hiring inexperienced teachers and training them from scratch.  I know I would be quite insulted if someone hired me in good faith because I am a "professional" and then proceeded to tell me how to teach.  Thanks for the input lostinidlewonder 

[lostinidlewonder]

The only problem though, is the results.  They don't have decent retention (maybe 2 years max on average).  Most all my students stay for over 5 years (from beginning) and many until they finish high school.  That's "cradle to grave" as I call it.  I would just like to keep that retention consistent for everyone who works for me.  Maybe not possible or realistic. 

As a manager of the school you can tell prospective students if they are ever not enjoying lessons that they can let you know (or you can ask them yourself if they are enjoying the lessons periodically) and you can match them with someone else or teach them yourself until you do. That way the students themselves act as discreet feedback regarding your teachers performance, this without you even having to be there observing the lessons yourself. Your good teachers will have hardly any spaces left and the lesser ones will be very free, that will give you some good ideas as to which teacher is performing well.

On the other hand, I just might have to stick with hiring inexperienced teachers and training them from scratch.  I know I would be quite insulted if someone hired me in good faith because I am a "professional" and then proceeded to tell me how to teach.  Thanks for the input lostinidlewonder 

When you train teachers you are giving them a precious product which they are not bound to only use when working for you, they could certainly simply go off on their own and use it themselves. So they can get free training from you and then go and use that elsewhere rather than at your school. I also feel that actual practical experience teaching is the best teacher, so beginner teachers no matter how well trained they are will need to test ideas out with students to become proficient at teaching. In any case it is an interesting journey you have got yourself into jpahmad, so many things to think about.