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Topic: What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata) (Read 3071 times)

alexf26

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What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata)

on: December 10, 2022, 09:47:45 PM

Never seen this symbol in any standard list of ornaments. But it appears quite a few times in my Henle book of Haydn Sonatas
A turn? An inverted turn?
For reference the piece is Sonata (Divertimento) in F Major, Hob. XVI:9: II. Minuet

photo_2022-12-10_21-43-44.jpg (131.49 kB, 960x1280 - viewed 270 times.)

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lelle

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Re: What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata)

Reply #1 on: December 18, 2022, 07:37:36 PM

This pianist plays it like a simple turn:

But I found other recordings that did something else. Check different recordings from great pianists and see if there is anything in common with what they do, if you can't find a source or a preface in your sheet music book that explains it.

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alexf26

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Posts: 23

Re: What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata)

Reply #2 on: December 19, 2022, 09:19:11 PM

Thanks lelle for your reply. I found out in the meantime by more extensive research and asking on other forums that is in fact Haydn's mystery ornament that himself called "half-mordent" and that there is a preface on Wiener text editions that mention it. No one knows in fact what he intended with this symbol but some experts agree that it should be performed as a regular turn in most cases.

Thought I would share and hope it helps other people that may encounter this on Haydn's sonatas urtext editions.

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ego0720

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Posts: 161

Re: What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata)

Reply #3 on: May 15, 2023, 10:55:50 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on December 10, 2022, 09:47:45 PM

Never seen this symbol in any standard list of ornaments. But it appears quite a few times in my Henle book of Haydn Sonatas
A turn? An inverted turn?
For reference the piece is Sonata (Divertimento) in F Major, Hob. XVI:9: II. Minuet

“inverted-turn” or inverted gruppetto in the following sources.

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/musical-notes-symbols/

https://soundadventurer.com/what-is-that-sideways-s-in-music-for/

Note that the inverted turn symbol was inconsistent.

Turn vs mordant:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-turn-and-a-mordent-in-violin

Sorry if I’m redundant. This was for myself. I may have to reference this later. The question raised by OP was helpful. Right there with double accidents.

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alexf26

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Posts: 23

Re: What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata)

Reply #4 on: May 19, 2023, 09:38:48 PM

Sorry ego0720 but this symbol does not match the ones on the sources you posted.

This is a more complex question and I would recommend reading the discussion on https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3292103/what-ornament-is-this-haydn-sonata.html

Not that is too important for the performance as most people agree to play this as a regular fast turn. It's nice to know though if you would like to learn about the composer's history.

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ego0720

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Posts: 161

Re: What ornament is this? (Haydn Sonata)

Reply #5 on: May 20, 2023, 02:39:08 AM

Quote from: alexf26 on May 19, 2023, 09:38:48 PM

Sorry ego0720 but this symbol does not match the ones on the sources you posted.

This is a more complex question and I would recommend reading the discussion on https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3292103/what-ornament-is-this-haydn-sonata.html

Not that is too important for the performance as most people agree to play this as a regular fast turn. It's nice to know though if you would like to learn about the composer's history.

Thanks for the link. OP answered their question that it is half-mordant (sorta). I was learning other things as well and needed to group it here. I am learning so much from everyone. You guys have so much knowledge.

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