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Topic: Rach 3 ??  (Read 4996 times)

Offline happy notes

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Rach 3 ??
on: December 15, 2022, 03:19:34 PM
Has anyone ever learnt Rach 3 ? 
Experiences ? 
Any recommended copy to buy ? 
Also, when people learn concertos like this, do they get a solo copy, or do they learn off a copy that has all the parts displayed?
Thanks!
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Offline lelle

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #1 on: December 15, 2022, 11:14:43 PM
I think if you want to really learn, understand and master the concerto in depth, you study the full score with the orchestra. When starting out just learning the notes of the piano part, learning from a solo part with an orchestra reduction is more than enough (and more convenient). Just my 2 cents.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #2 on: December 16, 2022, 12:51:57 AM
I have learnt most of the notes, and could play most of the passages fine... but there were a couple of bits that were just hard to fix - especially while teaching full-time (45 hours/week).

The copy I'm using is the Schirmer - but that's because my father bought me the book when I was 12. It holds sentimental value to me. I'm sure you'll find most copies are just the piano solo and orchestral reduction.
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #3 on: December 21, 2022, 10:45:49 PM
Hello, happy notes.

I learned Rachmaninoff's Third Concerto when I was 24 years old, having previously learned and performed with orchestras his Second Concerto (I was 16 years old), as well as the "Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini" (I was 20 years old).

I have played it on several occasions with different orchestras. It has proven a big advantage knowing the orchestral parts in detail, as well as learning the second piano. In other words, get the two piano arrangement and the orchestral score. It's not only a good idea for learning it, but also for understanding it and building an authentic and credible interpretation.

I generally do the same for every work for piano and orchestra - from J. S. Bach to L. Bernstein. It makes a huge difference.

Would be happy to answer any Rach3-related questions for you,
Dino
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #4 on: December 22, 2022, 06:15:44 AM
you'd learn it like you learn any other song.  except you should know everyone else part as well
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #5 on: December 22, 2022, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: dinoimeri on December 21, 2022, 10:45:49 PM
Hello, happy notes.

I learned Rachmaninoff's Third Concerto when I was 24 years old, having previously learned and performed with orchestras his Second Concerto (I was 16 years old), as well as the "Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini" (I was 20 years old).

I have played it on several occasions with different orchestras. It has proven a big advantage knowing the orchestral parts in detail, as well as learning the second piano. In other words, get the two piano arrangement and the orchestral score. It's not only a good idea for learning it, but also for understanding it and building an authentic and credible interpretation.

I generally do the same for every work for piano and orchestra - from J. S. Bach to L. Bernstein. It makes a huge difference.

Would be happy to answer any Rach3-related questions for you,
Dino

This is really helpful, thank you Dino!  But, you say 2nd piano part ?  I thought there was only one piano involved (and the orchestra of course)... am I wrong ?
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #6 on: December 22, 2022, 01:57:48 PM
Quote from: happy notes on December 22, 2022, 11:52:44 AM
This is really helpful, thank you Dino!  But, you say 2nd piano part ?  I thought there was only one piano involved (and the orchestra of course)... am I wrong ?

For each work written for piano and orchestra there is an arrangement for two pianos, the second piano plays the orchestral part. This is done for learning and rehearsal purposes. The public performance - of course - is always done with piano and orchestra.

So, when you study the work you have the option to find a two-piano arrangement. That way you can find someone to play the second piano (orchestra parts) with you, or you can learn it yourself in order to familiarise yourself with the orchestral part more thoroughly.

All the best,
Dino
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #7 on: December 22, 2022, 02:56:10 PM
Quote from: dinoimeri on December 22, 2022, 01:57:48 PM
For each work written for piano and orchestra there is an arrangement for two pianos, the second piano plays the orchestral part. This is done for learning and rehearsal purposes. The public performance - of course - is always done with piano and orchestra.

So, when you study the work you have the option to find a two-piano arrangement. That way you can find someone to play the second piano (orchestra parts) with you, or you can learn it yourself in order to familiarise yourself with the orchestral part more thoroughly.

All the best,
Dino

Ohh, that makes a lot more sense, thank you so much for explaining! 
I'd really love to learn this but if I go ahead with it... which copy exactly would you recommend me to buy?  I really don't want to land up with the wrong thing so your recommendation would be highly valued and appreciated.  :)

Just wanted to say thank you so much for being here to talk to.

(P.S - Out of curiosity... how long did it take you to learn ?)

~ Bex
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #8 on: December 23, 2022, 09:29:07 AM
Quote from: happy notes on December 22, 2022, 02:56:10 PM
Ohh, that makes a lot more sense, thank you so much for explaining! 
I'd really love to learn this but if I go ahead with it... which copy exactly would you recommend me to buy?  I really don't want to land up with the wrong thing so your recommendation would be highly valued and appreciated.  :)

Just wanted to say thank you so much for being here to talk to.

(P.S - Out of curiosity... how long did it take you to learn ?)

~ Bex

It's my pleasure, Bex.

For Rachmaninoff's particular work there are many available editions that you can find online for free, as well as ones you can buy or order. I have used two different editions because I wanted to cross-check. Both of them were Russian editions, one by "Kompozitor" (St. Petersburg) and the other one "Muzika" (Moscow, 1982).

I believe you can find the latter on IMSLP.org library if you search for 'Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto no.3', and then go to the 'Arrangements and transcriptions' section. I think the editor is Pavel Lamm.

I had about 3 months to learn it the first time I was invited to perform it. That's a very short time for a work like this, so it was very challenging but the performance went very well in the end. But you see, capital works like this one you study your whole life and you discover new things every time you start working on it. This happened to me every time I played it - the last time was in April this year.

If you decide to learn it, having the right approach will save you a lot of trouble.
Let me know if you have any more questions or doubts.

Dino
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #9 on: December 23, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
Quote from: dinoimeri on December 23, 2022, 09:29:07 AM
It's my pleasure, Bex.

For Rachmaninoff's particular work there are many available editions that you can find online for free, as well as ones you can buy or order. I have used two different editions because I wanted to cross-check. Both of them were Russian editions, one by "Kompozitor" (St. Petersburg) and the other one "Muzika" (Moscow, 1982).

I believe you can find the latter on IMSLP.org library if you search for 'Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto no.3', and then go to the 'Arrangements and transcriptions' section. I think the editor is Pavel Lamm.

I had about 3 months to learn it the first time I was invited to perform it. That's a very short time for a work like this, so it was very challenging but the performance went very well in the end. But you see, capital works like this one you study your whole life and you discover new things every time you start working on it. This happened to me every time I played it - the last time was in April this year.

If you decide to learn it, having the right approach will save you a lot of trouble.
Let me know if you have any more questions or doubts.

Dino

Hello Dino

Thank you very much for your recommendations. Yes, I think I'd like to make it my goal to learn this in 2023. I'm quite a visual person so I think buying the score would be much better than trying to read online. Sorry for acting really confused again, but if I'm going to buy the score, should I buy just the piano part, or find an edition for two pianos, or buy the full thing ?
Oh, yes! I've actually seen the full score on IMSLP... but are you referring to the full score or do they have just the piano part listed on there too?
Another thing that I'm thinking of is... where would I find an orchestra that would play it with me? lol

Wow!  Three months isn't much time at all. That must have been a very big achievement - well done!  (I really admire you for that.)

I'd love to learn this so if you'd like to share helpful approaches etc, I'm like a sponge, ready and excited to soak up all the info my brain can contain.  Music's my passion and a very massive part of my life so I'm very dedicated and willing to learn.

Just as a fun note, and also in case you're thinking about capability for Rach 3 etc, etc, I'm 17 years old but have just taken my DipABRSM exam in piano performance about a week ago. (Are you familiar with this exam?) I've heard it'll take three months until I get the results though. :(  (Such a long time!!)
I'm currently learning Liszt Liebestraum No.3 to keep me busy as I can't stay away from the piano! haha
I'm currently going at a page a day - it's SO beautiful and I just want to be able to play it properly!
Also, I live in the UK. (England to be a bit more specific!) 🙃 Where are you based?

Thank you SO much for your help,

Wishing you a good Christmas and a wonderful new year!

~ Bex
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #10 on: December 23, 2022, 07:32:39 PM
Quote from: happy notes on December 23, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
Hello Dino

Thank you very much for your recommendations. Yes, I think I'd like to make it my goal to learn this in 2023. I'm quite a visual person so I think buying the score would be much better than trying to read online. Sorry for acting really confused again, but if I'm going to buy the score, should I buy just the piano part, or find an edition for two pianos, or buy the full thing ?
Oh, yes! I've actually seen the full score on IMSLP... but are you referring to the full score or do they have just the piano part listed on there too?
Another thing that I'm thinking of is... where would I find an orchestra that would play it with me? lol

Wow!  Three months isn't much time at all. That must have been a very big achievement - well done!  (I really admire you for that.)

I'd love to learn this so if you'd like to share helpful approaches etc, I'm like a sponge, ready and excited to soak up all the info my brain can contain.  Music's my passion and a very massive part of my life so I'm very dedicated and willing to learn.

Just as a fun note, and also in case you're thinking about capability for Rach 3 etc, etc, I'm 17 years old but have just taken my DipABRSM exam in piano performance about a week ago. (Are you familiar with this exam?) I've heard it'll take three months until I get the results though. :(  (Such a long time!!)
I'm currently learning Liszt Liebestraum No.3 to keep me busy as I can't stay away from the piano! haha
I'm currently going at a page a day - it's SO beautiful and I just want to be able to play it properly!
Also, I live in the UK. (England to be a bit more specific!) 🙃 Where are you based?

Thank you SO much for your help,

Wishing you a good Christmas and a wonderful new year!

~ Bex

Hello again, Bex.

Thank you for the kind wishes, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year too!

I am sure you can find some sheet music stores in your city. Since you live in England, I guess you can find these editions which look okay to me, but you can find any other too as long as they are arrangements for two pianos:
- https://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Rachmaninoff-Sergei-Piano-Concerto-No-3-Op-30-in-D-minor-arr-2-pianos-4-hands/606750
- https://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Rachmaninoff-Sergei-Piano-Concerto-No-3-Op-30-in-D-minor-arr-2-pianos-4-hands/605394

These ones are arrangements for two pianos. The first piano is the solo part and the second piano is the accompaniment (the orchestra). Whenever you start learning a new work for piano and orchestra, a two-piano arrangement is the way to begin. Have you learned some other piano concerto so far?

Rachmaninoff's Third is certainly not a first piano+orchestra work to learn by all means. You should consider learning some other works first and reach the Third eventually.

I am familiar with DipABRSM being the grading system for the Royal Schools of Music, if I am not mistaken? Good luck with the results!

I am based in Skopje, North Macedonia. I am 32 years old and I teach at the University here and I perform concerts in Europe. Hopefully, next year I will perform in England - who knows!
Anyway, wishing you the best of luck with your development.

Dino
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #11 on: December 24, 2022, 12:14:56 AM
Quote from: happy notes on December 23, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
I'm 17 years old but have just taken my DipABRSM exam in piano performance about a week ago.

Okay - seriously, if you want to learn the Rach 3 - I'd undertake the LRSM, then the FRSM and then you've be in a far better position to even THINK of tackling the Rach 3.

Going from DipABRSM to Rach 3 is BONKERS!!! Trust me.
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #12 on: December 24, 2022, 06:49:15 PM
Quote from: perfect_pitch on December 24, 2022, 12:14:56 AM
Okay - seriously, if you want to learn the Rach 3 - I'd undertake the LRSM, then the FRSM and then you've be in a far better position to even THINK of tackling the Rach 3.

Going from DipABRSM to Rach 3 is BONKERS!!! Trust me.

Ohh, are you serious ?  You mean, it's really "BONKERS" ?  Not actually something I'm possibly capable of doing ?
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #13 on: December 24, 2022, 11:32:39 PM
If you're currently doing Liebestraum just to keep busy, then yes. The type of people who learn pieces like the Rach 3 could learn Liebestraum in an hour or so. The Rach 3 is TUMULTUOUSLY hard.

Try perfect a Mozart Concerto, then maybe a Beethoven Concerto, then a Brahms concerto... and then maybe work your way up to the Rach 3.

I'm not trying to be a defeatist, but you'll spend a LOT of time, agony and frustration trying to get it under your fingers... and it won't be something you're capable of doing... yet.

Stick at it and one day it will be possible though.
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Offline frodo3

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #14 on: December 25, 2022, 01:44:42 AM
Quote from: perfect_pitch on December 24, 2022, 11:32:39 PM
If you're currently doing Liebestraum just to keep busy, then yes. The type of people who learn pieces like the Rach 3 could learn Liebestraum in an hour or so. The Rach 3 is TUMULTUOUSLY hard.

Try perfect a Mozart Concerto, then maybe a Beethoven Concerto, then a Brahms concerto... and then maybe work your way up to the Rach 3.

I'm not trying to be a defeatist, but you'll spend a LOT of time, agony and frustration trying to get it under your fingers... and it won't be something you're capable of doing... yet.

Stick at it and one day it will be possible though.

Maybe happy notes could also watch the movie "Shine" based on a real pianist.  I only saw this once a long time ago.  But wasn't there a scene where the pianist was young and wanting to play Rach 3 immediately?  He was already an accomplished performer at the time.  His teacher (or father?) said that this was impossible.  He would first need to play  Mozart, then Beethoven, then Chopin, then Brahms concertos before even thinking of starting on this concerto.  Something like that.  I may be way off in my recollection.  Maybe I will rent this movie before the year is up.

Happy notes - your notes may not be very happy if you try Rach 3 too soon.   ;)  I'm just kidding!  It is of course your choice to try to play it now or wait.    :)  :)  :)
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Offline frodo3

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #15 on: December 25, 2022, 05:16:16 AM
P.S.  I happen to agree 100% with perfect_pitch on waiting before playing Rach3.  I believe in the importance of quality.  But I also believe that it is of course your choice to try to play Rach3 now or wait.  You however do not have a choice on whether you can play this piece with quality at this time.  This will be determined by your current ability level and to a much lesser extent, your talent and determination.  Just my opinion.  I wish you the best of luck with this!!
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #16 on: December 25, 2022, 02:19:52 PM
I would definitely not put any of the two Brahms Piano Concertos before Rachmaninoff Third. I find both of them to be much more difficult works that only truly mature artists can deliver.

Among the other concerti suggested by the others, I would also add Rachmaninoff's Second, Rachmaninoff's "Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini", Tchaikovsky b-flat-minor concerto.. They will certainly add to your experience and make the transition to big concerti more natural.

Dino
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #17 on: December 26, 2022, 01:46:54 PM
Quote from: frodo3 on December 25, 2022, 01:44:42 AM
Maybe happy notes could also watch the movie "Shine" based on a real pianist.  I only saw this once a long time ago.  But wasn't there a scene where the pianist was young and wanting to play Rach 3 immediately?  He was already an accomplished performer at the time.  His teacher (or father?) said that this was impossible.  He would first need to play  Mozart, then Beethoven, then Chopin, then Brahms concertos before even thinking of starting on this concerto.  Something like that.  I may be way off in my recollection.  Maybe I will rent this movie before the year is up.

Happy notes - your notes may not be very happy if you try Rach 3 too soon.   ;)  I'm just kidding!  It is of course your choice to try to play it now or wait.    :)  :)  :)

Hello Frodo and thank you for your reply.
Maybe you guys are right, maybe I'm not ready. I guess it's hard for you all to judge because sometimes it's better to base on the physical known abilities that can be seen rather than just judging from a grade, if that makes sense. Anyway, I'll give it some thought. Also, thank you for the film recommendation. :)
Haha, your joke made me smile ;)
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #18 on: December 26, 2022, 01:56:50 PM
Quote from: dinoimeri on December 23, 2022, 07:32:39 PM
Hello again, Bex.

Thank you for the kind wishes, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year too!

I am sure you can find some sheet music stores in your city. Since you live in England, I guess you can find these editions which look okay to me, but you can find any other too as long as they are arrangements for two pianos:
- https://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Rachmaninoff-Sergei-Piano-Concerto-No-3-Op-30-in-D-minor-arr-2-pianos-4-hands/606750
- https://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Rachmaninoff-Sergei-Piano-Concerto-No-3-Op-30-in-D-minor-arr-2-pianos-4-hands/605394

These ones are arrangements for two pianos. The first piano is the solo part and the second piano is the accompaniment (the orchestra). Whenever you start learning a new work for piano and orchestra, a two-piano arrangement is the way to begin. Have you learned some other piano concerto so far?

Rachmaninoff's Third is certainly not a first piano+orchestra work to learn by all means. You should consider learning some other works first and reach the Third eventually.

I am familiar with DipABRSM being the grading system for the Royal Schools of Music, if I am not mistaken? Good luck with the results!

I am based in Skopje, North Macedonia. I am 32 years old and I teach at the University here and I perform concerts in Europe. Hopefully, next year I will perform in England - who knows!
Anyway, wishing you the best of luck with your development.

Dino

Hello again Dino

I have to start by telling you that I found the link to your YouTube channel and... WOW!  You are so good, I saw the Rachmaninoff 3 Cadenza of yours. It's awesome!!  I'm going to subscribe :)

Thank you so much for the links. It looks very good, I appreciate your help very much. And, no, I have not learnt any other piano concertos before. I have never played the piano with an orchestra before either. I have only played the violin in an orchestra but have never been solo piano. I hope I'm able to do this one day though.

Yes, you're right about the DipABRSM. :)

Macedonia ?  Wow!  So what is your native language then ?  It would be a wonderful opportunity for you to be able to bring your music to England. :)

All the best
Bex
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #19 on: December 26, 2022, 03:03:31 PM
Quote from: dinoimeri on December 25, 2022, 02:19:52 PM
I would definitely not put any of the two Brahms Piano Concertos before Rachmaninoff Third. I find both of them to be much more difficult works that only truly mature artists can deliver.

I can't comment on the 2nd Brahms Concerto, but the first is definitely easier to perform than the Rach 3.

A lot of pianists seem to think they can perform the Rach 3, but usually they just perform at blazing speeds, and in their tempo destroy the beauty which can be found if they just take their time.

As for the Brahms 1st in d minor, most of the bravura comes from the tempo. You stagnate and play too slow, you lose the appeal.
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #20 on: December 26, 2022, 09:27:21 PM
Quote from: happy notes on December 26, 2022, 01:56:50 PM
Hello again Dino

I have to start by telling you that I found the link to your YouTube channel and... WOW!  You are so good, I saw the Rachmaninoff 3 Cadenza of yours. It's awesome!!  I'm going to subscribe :)

Thank you so much for the links. It looks very good, I appreciate your help very much. And, no, I have not learnt any other piano concertos before. I have never played the piano with an orchestra before either. I have only played the violin in an orchestra but have never been solo piano. I hope I'm able to do this one day though.

Yes, you're right about the DipABRSM. :)

Macedonia ?  Wow!  So what is your native language then ?  It would be a wonderful opportunity for you to be able to bring your music to England. :)

All the best
Bex

Hi again, Bex.

Thank you for your kind words and for listening. I'm happy you like my performance of the cadenza.

I am sure you will succeed quicker than you think, given your passion and drive for music. I never imagined I would be able to play half of the music I have played so far, so step by step you'll get where you want to be.

Since I receive a lot of questions from students, pianists, admirers of music in my inbox, channel comments and personally, one of my wishes for 2023 is to share some of the experiences I've had with music online with perspective pianists, so I plan to open a separate YouTube channel for educational videos. I'll make sure to send you the link once I start with that, so it would help if you think of any question you might have that I can try to answer in a video.

In Macedonia we speak Macedonian language (200 phrases in Macedonian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gsdPpTX1w), you can read more about it on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language.

I'll make sure to bring some Macedonian music to England, it would be very interesting to share it with the audiences there!

All my best,
Dino
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #21 on: December 27, 2022, 02:15:13 PM
Quote from: dinoimeri on December 26, 2022, 09:27:21 PM
Hi again, Bex.

Thank you for your kind words and for listening. I'm happy you like my performance of the cadenza.

I am sure you will succeed quicker than you think, given your passion and drive for music. I never imagined I would be able to play half of the music I have played so far, so step by step you'll get where you want to be.

Since I receive a lot of questions from students, pianists, admirers of music in my inbox, channel comments and personally, one of my wishes for 2023 is to share some of the experiences I've had with music online with perspective pianists, so I plan to open a separate YouTube channel for educational videos. I'll make sure to send you the link once I start with that, so it would help if you think of any question you might have that I can try to answer in a video.

In Macedonia we speak Macedonian language (200 phrases in Macedonian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gsdPpTX1w), you can read more about it on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language.

I'll make sure to bring some Macedonian music to England, it would be very interesting to share it with the audiences there!

All my best,
Dino

Hello again Dino

Thank you very much and, yes, please do let me know when you open that new YouTube channel. I would like to see that very much.
Thank you so much for all your help, it is much appreciated.

Best wishes

Bex
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #22 on: January 04, 2023, 10:42:18 PM
Hi Dino

Just out of interest... do any copies of Rach 3 contain printed fingering? Or is that something a pianist has to figure out for themselves?

Much thanks,
Bex
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Offline dinoimeri

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #23 on: January 06, 2023, 05:59:02 PM
Quote from: happy notes on January 04, 2023, 10:42:18 PM
Hi Dino

Just out of interest... do any copies of Rach 3 contain printed fingering? Or is that something a pianist has to figure out for themselves?

Much thanks,
Bex

Hello, Bex.

Most editions have fingerings on some of the more difficult passages, but it's always better to figure out which fingering works best for you.

Dino
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Offline happy notes

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Re: Rach 3 ??
Reply #24 on: January 07, 2023, 12:14:59 AM
Quote from: dinoimeri on January 06, 2023, 05:59:02 PM
Hello, Bex.

Most editions have fingerings on some of the more difficult passages, but it's always better to figure out which fingering works best for you.

Dino

Ah, I understand.  Thank you very much for getting back to me. 🤝
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