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Topic: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension  (Read 1770 times)

Offline robertus

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Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
on: April 10, 2023, 03:48:24 AM
On another thread, I advanced the opinion that Chopin's Op.10, No.1 was essentially a study in finger extension, not "throwing the hand", or "rotating the wrist". My reasons for this opinion is that:
1) In the 19th century, pianists did actually work hard on expanding that hand flexibility by using physical exercises.
2) The approach of playing the arpeggio by lateral movement of a more-or-less fixed hand posture is consistent with the 19th century emphasis on economy of movement
3) Exercises which take this precise approach are to be found amongst the works of Henselt, Philip, Godowsky, etc.

As several people asked for a video, I attach here a short demonstration of the approach. As it was very hard to film it so you can see what my hand is doing (in the absence of a separate camera-person), and what the hand position and movement is, I have confined it to two octaves. But hopefully the video suffices to see that this approach is perfectly possible and realistic.

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Offline ranjit

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #1 on: April 10, 2023, 07:43:38 AM
Good on posting a video demonstrating the idea. Well, my response to this would be the following:
1. You very much have unusually large hands. Nowhere was it written that Chopin had saucepans for hands, and so why would he compose something he couldn't play himself? At a full stretch, you might even be able to stretch a thirteenth from what I see, and that is not average.
2. You manage the tenths alright, but struggle with the elevenths. The problem is not in the stretch, but the evenness. Your descending runs, especially in the wider stretch, are very uneven, and the inner fingers clump together. This is because the extended hand position doesn't facilitate fluid movement since it restricts your ability to move those fingers downward.
3. You are noticeably struggling with the two easiest arpeggios of the Chopin etude, and struggle to get any sense of consistency when it comes to those, to play without flubbed notes and so on. Extended to the entire piece, that would make for a very shoddy performance.
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Offline robertus

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #2 on: April 10, 2023, 12:00:08 PM
Quote from: ranjit on April 10, 2023, 07:43:38 AM
Good on posting a video demonstrating the idea. Well, my response to this would be the following:
1. You very much have unusually large hands. Nowhere was it written that Chopin had saucepans for hands, and so why would he compose something he couldn't play himself? At a full stretch, you might even be able to stretch a thirteenth from what I see, and that is not average.
2. You manage the tenths alright, but struggle with the elevenths. The problem is not in the stretch, but the evenness. Your descending runs, especially in the wider stretch, are very uneven, and the inner fingers clump together. This is because the extended hand position doesn't facilitate fluid movement since it restricts your ability to move those fingers downward.
3. You are noticeably struggling with the two easiest arpeggios of the Chopin etude, and struggle to get any sense of consistency when it comes to those, to play without flubbed notes and so on. Extended to the entire piece, that would make for a very shoddy performance.

Bear in mind this is playing without support of the l.h. sonorities, or any sustaining pedal. Perhaps YOU can play the attached drill (with the 'easiest arpeggios', which I play at  0'22"-0'29" on the video, i.e. at about MM=210), faster, more accurately, more evenly and more articulately than I do here, even using the 'hand rotation' technique? If so, please feel free to upload your own video....I will sincerely look forward to hearing it, with the greatest anticipation and interest.

By the way, you flatter me about the size of my hands-which are not so big at all (except by virtue of special training, over many decades). I am  only 6'3", which is by no means an exceptional size.
 
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Offline rubens99

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #3 on: April 10, 2023, 03:21:36 PM
Interesting. Isn't this is opposite to what was observed when Chopin himself was playing this piece? I don't remember the source, but the observer described his right hand motions as opening and closing rapidly.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #4 on: April 10, 2023, 05:00:32 PM
Quote from: rubens99 on April 10, 2023, 03:21:36 PM
Interesting. Isn't this is opposite to what was observed when Chopin himself was playing this piece? I don't remember the source, but the observer described his right hand motions as opening and closing rapidly.
That would describe what is appropriate. The hand needs to strive to remain at naturally relaxed position when playing to promote a relaxed hand and Chopin would encourage this too. This paper might be of interest exploring many ideas of relaxed playing.
 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336577947_Expressive_gesture_and_structural_disambiguation_in_Frederic_Chopin's_fingering_indications_A_preliminary_study_through_selected_etudes
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Offline johnmcclane

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #5 on: May 05, 2023, 03:20:29 AM
Quote from: lostinidlewonder on April 10, 2023, 05:00:32 PM
That would describe what is appropriate. The hand needs to strive to remain at naturally relaxed position when playing to promote a relaxed hand and Chopin would encourage this too. This paper might be of interest exploring many ideas of relaxed playing.
 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336577947_Expressive_gesture_and_structural_disambiguation_in_Frederic_Chopin's_fingering_indications_A_preliminary_study_through_selected_etudespizza tower
I agree. Remain hands at naturally relaxed position will help to avoid hand fatigue. The article is so useful and informative. Thank you for sharing.
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Offline robertus

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #6 on: May 05, 2023, 11:55:39 AM
Quote from: lostinidlewonder on April 10, 2023, 05:00:32 PM
That would describe what is appropriate. The hand needs to strive to remain at naturally relaxed position when playing to promote a relaxed hand and Chopin would encourage this too. This paper might be of interest exploring many ideas of relaxed playing.
 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336577947_Expressive_gesture_and_structural_disambiguation_in_Frederic_Chopin's_fingering_indications_A_preliminary_study_through_selected_etudes

Hmm...Seems like yet another "armchair technician"......Can he actually deliver?
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Online brogers70

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #7 on: May 05, 2023, 02:12:15 PM
Quote from: robertus on May 05, 2023, 11:55:39 AM
Hmm...Seems like yet another "armchair technician"......Can he actually deliver?

Can you deliver? It's easy to go online and find excellent performances of Chopin 10/1 by concert pianists. Slow the videos down and you invariably see the "ugly, inelegant, inefficient technique" you complain about, and yet they look comfortable and sound great. All you've offered in your support is half a bar in the right hand from the etude. It's not unreasonable for people to be skeptical that you've found a better, more 19th century-ish technique, if all we've got to see is a couple of not particularly fluid arpeggios. So, go ahead and deliver a musical performance of the etude and you'll have a better chance at convincing skeptics.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #8 on: May 05, 2023, 06:22:07 PM
Quote from: robertus on May 05, 2023, 11:55:39 AM
Hmm...Seems like yet another "armchair technician"......Can he actually deliver?
Lol at this guy.

If you want me to critique your video of a ridiculously small fragment of the piece and give an essay and video examples proving how poor your technique is I could do so, but what is the point? Now I'd rather point and laugh at you.

Why do I have to show a video when there are plenty masters already showing what is to be done? Why don't you show us one video of someone respected expanding like you do? Oh what's wrong you can't find any? You must have the ultimate secret technique that only super duper experts know!!! All those experts out there with videos already don't tell you anything at all, what is a video on pianostreet going to do? Your logic is killing kittens. Case closed.


https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=69324.msg721744#msg721744

Why does your stretching fail in this example you posted above.  ::)
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #9 on: May 05, 2023, 06:26:03 PM
Quote from: brogers70 on May 05, 2023, 02:12:15 PM
Can you deliver? It's easy to go online and find excellent performances of Chopin 10/1 by concert pianists. Slow the videos down and you invariably see the "ugly, inelegant, inefficient technique" you complain about, and yet they look comfortable and sound great. All you've offered in your support is half a bar in the right hand from the etude. It's not unreasonable for people to be skeptical that you've found a better, more 19th century-ish technique, if all we've got to see is a couple of not particularly fluid arpeggios. So, go ahead and deliver a musical performance of the etude and you'll have a better chance at convincing skeptics.
Its just delusions of grandeur compiled with Dunning–Kruger effect. Sad state.

Chopin has plenty of movements which have large intervals played without stretching, it is anti knowledge to believe stretching is superior when a more elegant technique is so much more desirable. The link I posted has many examples of this all which go against mere stretching.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #10 on: May 05, 2023, 06:35:50 PM
Quote from: johnmcclane on May 05, 2023, 03:20:29 AM
I agree. Remain hands at naturally relaxed position will help to avoid hand fatigue. The article is so useful and informative. Thank you for sharing.
You're welcome, certainly a lot of take in but very insightful.
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Offline jamienc

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Re: Chopin's Etude Op.10, No. 1 as a study in extension
Reply #11 on: May 19, 2023, 04:11:56 PM
Depends on the definition of extension. If one believes the hand has to accommodate the full shape of the chord they are going to have a very difficult time avoiding exhaustion by the end. The way the groups of notes are perceived physically is what determines success, and I find that success by never extending more than an octave to facilitate each group. I pay attention to the beam groups as the main physical item that determines the gesture. For example, in the first chord, I complete the c-g-c, and then treat the e on beat two as the beginning of the next group. This is opposed to the deceptive case of the ‘e’ being the end of the previous group. When you think this way, the idea of extension goes away and it becomes more of a quiet arm/wrist mechanism “bringing” the independent finger to its proper place.

I haven’t recorded this from a top down view, but did perform the Op. 10 set in April with Op. 109 to satisfaction. He real test of whether you play 10/1 correctly is if you can play 10/2 without fatigue at the end.
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