"Substantial" romantic pieces

[pianissima]

Hi everyone! This is my first post here, and I have a question that has been puzzling me for a while. I've seen some audition rep requirements that ask for a "substantial" piece from the Romantic era. What does that mean, exactly? What are some examples?

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

[franks66]

Hi
is a certain difficulty level meant?

Ther's no clear definition for "substanrtial". And there will be some controversity on that subject.

First pieces that come to my mind are:
Late Schubert Sonatas.
Schumann Fantasia
Chopin Ballades, Sonatas  2 and 3
Liszt Sonata
Brahms late piano pieces

There' a lot more of course, that was just my first impulse.

[thorn]

In my experience it usually means a standalone work of a longer duration, as in not a piece from a collection or a single movement from a Sonata. Obviously there are exceptions- if someone showed up with Liszt's Dante Sonata nobody would complain because it's part of a set. However you're in murkier waters with something like a piece from Brahms op.116-19 (not saying to avoid, just that there may be different attitudes on different panels).

[lelle]

Can confirm the above comments from my own experience. It tends to be a single movement work of a longer duration. This allows you to demonstrate how you manage form, if you can keep a longer piece both interesting throughout and feeling as a unified whole. How long that longer duration is is hard to say exactly, but I would not go shorter than 7 minutes. So maybe 7-15 min. Examples include any of the Chopin Ballades or Scherzi, something from the Années de pèlerinage or a Hungarian rhapsody by Liszt, etc.

[pianissima]

Thanks for the input. I have been working on Liszt's "Un sospiro" and have been wondering what would be a good "substantial" Romantic piece to follow that if I want to audition for undergrad. I did spend some time on Chopin Ballade No. 1 a few years ago but didn't quite get there with it ...

[lelle]

Thanks for the input. I have been working on Liszt's "Un sospiro" and have been wondering what would be a good "substantial" Romantic piece to follow that if I want to audition for undergrad. I did spend some time on Chopin Ballade No. 1 a few years ago but didn't quite get there with it ...

Sometimes Etudes are a separate category from "substantial" Romantic works in auditions. Take a careful look at the audition requirements and see if that's the case here. If so, Un Sospiro would probably count as an Etude rather than a substantial work. You could always contact the school and ask how they see it.

[thorn]

You should play something you are completely on top of/will be by the time of your audition. If the Chopin is still a work in progress then avoid it.

I assume your Liszt is for the etude category so your Romantic work should be by a different composer and show off a different side of your technique. It's also worth asking the department for their definition of 'Romantic' because someone in my undergrad played one of Dohnányi's Rhapsodies (1902/3) as she thought a Liszt one was too obvious and they loved it. But ask first as some departments would strictly require a 19th c. work (ridiculous but that's another thread!)

[pianissima]

I wasn't thinking of the Liszt as a substantial piece - it's short. My question is more what would be a good next-step kind of piece to learn over the next 6-9 months that I could possibly use for auditions if I want to go that route.

Here is the list for one school:
From memory:
1. Prelude and Fugue from the Well-Tempered Clavier by J. S. Bach.
2. One of the following: A complete sonata by Beethoven, excluding opus 49 and opus 79; a complete sonata by Mozart; a complete sonata by Haydn from the following list: Hob. XVI Nos. 20, 23, 24, 32, 48, 49, 50 and 52 or a complete sonata by Schubert.
3. A major composition by a 19th-century Romantic era composer.
4. A composition from the last 100 years in a style representative of the many diverse developments in music of the 20th or 21st century, or a work of your personal choice reflecting current genres in today’s inclusive musical landscape.

There are also easier requirements for a BA:
From memory:

1. Sinfonia or Prelude and Fugue from the Well-Tempered Clavier by J. S. Bach.
2. The first movement, in sonata-allegro form, of a Classical period sonata, i.e. a Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn or Schubert.
3. A composition by a 19th-century Romantic era composer.
4. A composition from the last 100 years in a style representative of the many diverse developments in music of the 20th or 21st century, or a work of your personal choice reflecting current genres in today’s inclusive musical landscape.

And for the less competitive school (for a BA):
-2 memorized pieces in contrasting styles (examples include, but are not limited to, a Bach Two or Three-part Invention or Prelude and Fugue, a first movement of a Classical period Sonata, a Chopin Nocturne or equivalent Romantic or 20th Century work).
-All major and minor scales and arpeggios, 2 octaves.
-Sight reading will be included in the audition

I may not even be good enough to get into these schools, but I'd like to try. I would have a better shot at the BA program than the BM. (In case it matters, short story is that I'm old and doing this for my own enjoyment, not for any career ambitions. I have an extremely strong music background including graduate degrees in performance, but not in piano. I'm working on an AA in piano at a community college right now.)

[thorn]

I notice the two BA lists don't say the piece has to be 'substantial' and in this case don't create extra work for yourself, just use Un sospiro as you've already learned it and have 6-9 months to polish it.

Your question seems more applicable to the first list above. What are you playing for the WTC, classical Sonata and 'last 100 years' requirements? This will help us to make suggestions.

[pianissima]

@thorn - yeah, I realized that when I went to look at the lists again. There was some other audition that used the word "substantial," I think.
This past year, these are the pieces I've worked on in addition to the Liszt. I intentionally chose pieces that were less technically demanding so I could focus on polishing them to a higher level:
Beethoven Op. 26
Chopin Op. 9 No. 2 1 (mistyped!)
Bach WTC I P&F in B flat major and WTC II P&F in A minor
Haydn Sonata in C major Hob. Xvi:50
Barber Excursions 1 & 2

I do have a pretty long list of repertoire I've studied and performed in mostly casual situations, some of which is more difficult than the above. But I've been working on improving my memory and in general being more focused on what I can do well rather than what I can do sort of.

I may set some of these aside after this next month and start learning others - why I posted here, because I'm having a hard time choosing. If I stay at the community college for another year, there are some other categories* they ask for in the 3rd and 4th semesters of the program, and they say "four new pieces" each semester (though TBH it's not a very demanding school and whatever I play is probably fine - but I'd like to follow the guidelines just to provide some discipline for myself).

I could conceivably audition for one of the BA programs next month and start in the fall, but I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to do that.

*Suggestions are a P&F from WTC, a Romantic or contemporary period sonata or concerto movement, a theme and variations or other form except sonata movement (3rd semester); work by an early German composer or by Scarlatti and another work from any period (4th semester).

[thorn]

If you may end up having to study a Romantic sonata at your current college then the most straightforward option would be to use this as your audition piece (just make sure it's different enough from your Beethoven/Haydn).

That being said Romantic sonatas tend to be long and I'm guessing this would take you over the audition time limit?

In my own audition I played Liszt Légende 1 because I was obsessed with Impressionism at the time and it was a way of playing to my strengths while ticking the 'Romantic' box. So think creatively- if you're strong in 'true' Romantic stuff then go for a big Chopin piece or a Sonata (time depending), if you like Baroque then look at a Liszt/Bach transcription, if you're better in post-1900 stuff then Liszt wrote a lot of stuff you could call 'proto-Impressionism'.

[bwl_13]

I think typically a 'substantial' work means a longer, more virtuosic work than the many character pieces and etudes common in the romantic period. I think they're basically not looking for Chopin nocturnes (except maybe the C minor?), or Brahms intermezzi (unless you prepare a whole opus, but again, don't quote me on that).

In my opinion there are two subclasses classes of 'substantial' works, one being something like Chopin ballades, Liszt Rhapsodies etc., the other being romantic sonatas, fantasies (I'm thinking Schumann) or long variation sets like Rachmaninoff's Corelli Variations. I'd imagine for undergrad they really are not asking you to prepare the Liszt sonata or the Corelli variations, probably something more in that first class. You can always email the audition coordinator and ask.

I'm not sure if you wanted recommendations, but Schumann's Papillons seems to fit, or Brahms Op. 117 (I would definitely email to confirm if you would want to do a set like this). You can also do one of the more popular choices like a Chopin ballade or scherzo, but most of those seem a bit harder than the other pieces you're considering for the audition. The other issue with picking one of the more popular, one movement virtouso pieces, especially written by Chopin, is that you'll find they require a lot of time to really become controlled.

[robertus]

The terms are vague, and probably deliberately so. If you played the "Suspiro" very well, that would be fine. If your playing shows the standard they are looking for, they won't quibble about what is 'substantial'.

Music schools are keen to gain students, rather than excluding them- at the same time, establishing a high standard for themselves- in order to attract good students (depending upon what market they're aiming at).

Personally, I would recommend the Liszt Ballade No.2- it's really easy to play, and no one can say it's not substantial. Also, the Grieg Ballade, Op. 24, is impressive and easy, and would show that you think outside the square. Or the Grieg Sonata, Op. 7- very impressive too, and can be learnt very quickly. The MacDowell Sonatas too.

I would suggest avoiding the Chopin Ballade No. 1....They will surely be sick of hearing that!

[pianissima]

So do you all think every serious pianist absolutely has to be able to play all those Lisztian swathes of notes? That kind of thing is so hard for me.

[thorn]

If you find that kind of thing difficult right now then don't play such a piece for the audition. However if you're accepted I doubt you'll be able to go through an entire undergrad program without playing something of that nature- every school asks for either a Chopin or Liszt etude at some point, for example. It's not that you have to be "good" at that style- or pick Chopin's 25/6 or Liszt's Mazeppa- more that they want to give students a thorough grounding in the standard repertoire.

For the record I disagree with the above comment that Liszt's Ballade 2 is "really easy". It's straightforward enough to memorise as it's repetitive, but technically I'd say it's on par with Chopin's Ballades 1+2 (though easier to pull off than Ballade 1 because audiences are less familiar with it)

[pianissima]

@thorn - I completely agree with you on all your points. I am fully aware of my shortcomings as a pianist and am working on them. I want to do these auditions to push myself, but I want the rep to be manageable for me. The Beethoven, Chopin, and Bach I worked on last semester seemed about right, overall. The Liszt has been frustrating; I can play it fairly well on my own or at a lesson, but performing it for a piano group or class has been less successful.

Also (almost afraid to say this), I'm not a big Liszt fan. I heard Andras Schiff say once that he does not play Liszt or Rachmaninoff, and of course he could if he wanted to, but he does what appeals to him. So I don't think those composers are for everyone.

To show technique, I would rather put my energies into learning some Chopin etudes, or a group of his preludes, or something along those lines.

(That Liszt Ballade looked VERY hard to me.)

[pianissima]

I just posted a practice recording of the Liszt in the Audition Room.

[thorn]

I'll listen to your Liszt later on

If you're more comfortable with Chopin then pick a longer Chopin work for the audition- if Ballade 1 is a stretch for you what about Ballade 3?

Even Schiff had to play Liszt and Rachmaninoff in his younger days, there's an old recording of him from the Tchaikowsky competition playing those composers.

[pianissima]

@thorn - I found this quote from Andras Schiff (in an interview done in 2001):

"There's total antipathy between me and Liszt, but at the same time admiration at his mastery. I find his personality unappealing ­ the playboy turned hermit. It's like a man who has told too many lies for too long, and now he's telling the truth, but it's too late! His music is just vulgar."

From this: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/andras-schiff-the-political-pianist-9237194.html

[thorn]

It's nice to know that even world class pianists are just ordinary human beings. That sounds like something you'd read on a forum!

[thalbergmad]

 I heard Andras Schiff say once that he does not play Liszt or Rachmaninoff, and of course he could if he wanted to, but he does what appeals to him.

There are some things in life for which I am eternally grateful, and this is one of them.
The Reger Telemann Variations are pretty substantial.
Thal

[pianissima]

I'm bringing this topic back because I decided to work up the Brahms Rhapsody Op. 79 No. 2  (relearn it - I've known it for years) for my auditions. Any opinions about whether this would be considered a "major composition" in the 19th-century category? I personally would say not really (for one thing because it's only about 5 minutes long), but I was curious what others think.

[thorn]

Here is the list for one school:
From memory:
1. Prelude and Fugue from the Well-Tempered Clavier by J. S. Bach.
2. One of the following: A complete sonata by Beethoven, excluding opus 49 and opus 79; a complete sonata by Mozart; a complete sonata by Haydn from the following list: Hob. XVI Nos. 20, 23, 24, 32, 48, 49, 50 and 52 or a complete sonata by Schubert.
3. A major composition by a 19th-century Romantic era composer.
4. A composition from the last 100 years in a style representative of the many diverse developments in music of the 20th or 21st century, or a work of your personal choice reflecting current genres in today’s inclusive musical landscape.

There are also easier requirements for a BA:
From memory:

1. Sinfonia or Prelude and Fugue from the Well-Tempered Clavier by J. S. Bach.
2. The first movement, in sonata-allegro form, of a Classical period sonata, i.e. a Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn or Schubert.
3. A composition by a 19th-century Romantic era composer.
4. A composition from the last 100 years in a style representative of the many diverse developments in music of the 20th or 21st century, or a work of your personal choice reflecting current genres in today’s inclusive musical landscape.

And for the less competitive school (for a BA):
-2 memorized pieces in contrasting styles (examples include, but are not limited to, a Bach Two or Three-part Invention or Prelude and Fugue, a first movement of a Classical period Sonata, a Chopin Nocturne or equivalent Romantic or 20th Century work).
-All major and minor scales and arpeggios, 2 octaves.
-Sight reading will be included in the audition

If this is still in reference to these requirements then the Brahms sounds great for the second and third lists. But it will absolutely not be accepted in the case of the first list.

[mjames]

@thorn - I found this quote from Andras Schiff (in an interview done in 2001):
From this: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/andras-schiff-the-political-pianist-9237194.html

World class pianist or not, this is just dumb. Liszt is not my cup of tea either but you can't find a greater example of a piano sonata in the romantic era than Liszt's B minor sonata. Absolutely glorious piece of work. If you don't care for it you either don't like the piano at all or you're probably just annoyed that you're not good enough to play it.

Schiff always comes off as one of those pianists who can only seem to enjoy piano music originally written for the harpsichord or fortepiano.

[lelle]

World class pianist or not, this is just dumb. Liszt is not my cup of tea either but you can't find a greater example of a piano sonata in the romantic era than Liszt's B minor sonata. Absolutely glorious piece of work. If you don't care for it you either don't like the piano at all or you're probably just annoyed that you're not good enough to play it.

Schiff always comes off as one of those pianists who can only seem to enjoy piano music originally written for the harpsichord or fortepiano.

I mean he is allowed to have his personal taste though

I can sort of see his point with some of Liszt but I disagree in many cases. He has a lot of fantastic compositions even if I like far from everything he's done.

[pianissima]

@thorn - yeah, that’s what I would expect. What about the complete Op 79? Would that be considered “major”? (I am going to stick with the BA, just curious.)

[thorn]

I doubt it because as mentioned above when they say "substantial" they're looking for ability to make sense of a longer work- ie. read this as "not miniatures". It sounds sensible to target the BA programs if you're more comfortable with those requirements

As for the side discussion, Schiff is a snob (not for his personal taste, but for the way he talks about things he does not like). But I think this needs another thread!