This just about sums up the Repertoire board >>

[SteinwayTony]

Please don't mistake this post for a complaint, or a rant.  Actually I think I've intended it to be a sort of informal poll. 

It seems that the repertoire board has been revealing some pretty disappointing things about the forum and the people who use it.  Every other thread, while worded differently, all scream out "I must play the most technically taxing pieces in the repertoire and I must play them now."  Some of the more extreme cases of ridiculous posts:

- A user who has been playing for two years wants to play the first Chopin Ballade, both of the concertos, the most difficult P&F, the most difficult Chopin Prelude, and the Liszt Sonata, among other unrealistic ventures.

- Somebody asked for the sheet music to Opus Clavicembalisticum so they could start working on it.  Right.

- Somebody wants to perform the Busoni Concerto.

- Somebody (granted, it was Lenny) recommended that someone learn all the Godowsky Studies because it would be "helpful."

Does this forum instill a sense of urgency to perform the most unrealistic (and often superficial) virtuosic works?  Is it maybe the passive-aggressive competition on the board? 

I'd like to get your opinions on this matter, because, I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty irked by it.

[Kapellmeister27]

Yes, I agree with you.  I would like to write more on the subject but I am in kind of a hurry right now.  I have to go to my first lesson ever with a real teacher and Im really nervous about playing La Campanella, Paganini variations, and part of Brahms Concerto 2 for her, so i wanna be prepared.  I'll come back later.  Bye.

[rlefebvr]

Maybe we are just better piano players than you are and you feel a tab jealous...

Now how does that C scale go again.....C..E...D...F...B...no,no wait I know this....C..D...E...G....Oh, scales are over rated anyway....maybe a Chopin Nocturne instead.


 

[Bartolomeo]

Ah, the cult of the virtuoso.

I would like to start out by saying that I do not consider myself a virtuoso, and probably never will be a virtuoso.  I'm too old and not motivated enough, and lack talent.

I do however have a great time and get paying gigs playing relatively much simpler material.  I show up on time, organized, and prepared; I smile, I get in the groove with the other musicians, listen when people ask me to play slower, faster, softer, etc.

The number of people who have the preparation to approach the most difficult repertoire, and who have a suitable occasion upon which to play it, are few indeed.  I provide accompaniment, or play solo or ensemble music that is mainly there to set the tone for an occasion.  Virtuoso music is all but useless for that because it draws too much attention to itself.

I consider repertoire that is difficult or hard to learn to be problematic, and I won't consider it unless it has other redeeming qualities.  There is plenty of beautiful music that isn't hard to play.

I have a stack of stuff I want to learn but it's collecting dust right now because I also have a stack of stuff that I've been asked to learn.

[bernhard]

Er… actually some timeinthe past I started a thread called: “easiest yet great piano piece ever written”,

(which incidentally is the fourth most viewed thread in the forum! So maybe not all is lost… True, it comes right after “Show off pieces” and “should I start the Fantasie impromptu?” but still… ).

and have consistently provided repertory lists of musically superior, and yet technically manageable pieces.

So if everyone who is dissatisfied with the budding virtuosi, were to do the same, the balance might be redressed. As it is, the virtuosi are posting about what interests them, so why rant at them? Let the others (and I include myself there) post about their interests.

Live and let live.

By the way, I second Bartolomeo all the way:

There is plenty of beautiful music that isn't hard to play.

So to put my mouth where my money is, I started this thread, which I invite anyone dissatisfied with rach3 and sorabdji posts to contribute:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php?topic=7008.new#new

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Hmoll]

Please don't mistake this post for a complaint, or a rant.  Actually I think I've intended it to be a sort of informal poll. 

It seems that the repertoire board has been revealing some pretty disappointing things about the forum and the people who use it.  Every other thread, while worded differently, all scream out "I must play the most technically taxing pieces in the repertoire and I must play them now."  Some of the more extreme cases of ridiculous posts:

- A user who has been playing for two years wants to play the first Chopin Ballade, both of the concertos, the most difficult P&F, the most difficult Chopin Prelude, and the Liszt Sonata, among other unrealistic ventures.

- Somebody asked for the sheet music to Opus Clavicembalisticum so they could start working on it.  Right.

- Somebody wants to perform the Busoni Concerto.

- Somebody (granted, it was Lenny) recommended that someone learn all the Godowsky Studies because it would be "helpful."

Does this forum instill a sense of urgency to perform the most unrealistic (and often superficial) virtuosic works?  Is it maybe the passive-aggressive competition on the board? 

I'd like to get your opinions on this matter, because, I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty irked by it.

I think what you get a lot here is what you get in a lot of other forums. People, sometimes with little experience, are looking for a secret handshake that will get them from beginner level instantly to advanced.  

What sends me into hysterical laughter is when someone asks something like "my forearms get really sore when I play octaves. What should I do?" and the response is "Play the Chopin  octave etude (or HR #6, or substitute your own hellish octave piece)." I'm always tempted to say "You think your forearms hurt before? Just follow that advice for some real pain!"


It's like everything else on the Internet. There are few gems of good advice mixed in with a lot of BS.

[Hmoll]

Live and let live.

 



 

Nah. It's much more fun to rant.

[SteinwayTony]

Hmoll brings up an excellent point.  There are some people who really know what they're talking about on Piano Forum, and there are clearly those who, well, don't.

I've gotten some great advice on this board, but when I browse around the performance boards and I see a user offer another user a bit of advice on technique, I'm always intrigued by it and eager to try it out, but I always take them with a grain of salt.  I'm just too paranoid about my playing to let an amateur with good intentions affect it negatively, so I run everything by my teacher before trying it. 

Abby Whiteside wrote two books on the technique of Chopin Etudes and insists that she even still hasn't mastered the octave Etude (25-10, I believe).  Some people are just silly.

[Hmoll]

Abby Whiteside wrote two books on the technique of Chopin Etudes and insists that she even still hasn't mastered the octave Etude (25-10, I believe).  

I don't think she's going to get any better on this piece.

[pseudopianist]

- A user who has been playing for two years wants to play the first Chopin Ballade, both of the concertos, the most difficult P&F, the most difficult Chopin Prelude, and the Liszt Sonata, among other unrealistic ventures.

Okay, first of.... What the ***? The reason for my thread was to check how far from these pieces I were, I had/have no plan in playing them right now.  I thought I made it clear in the thread. The reason I wanted to know was so I didn't start on the Bach fugue for example and wasting my time on it. How will I know where I am if I don't ask. Now I'm pissed off

[SteinwayTony]

It wasn't a personal attack or a complaint against anyone.  You did nothing wrong.  I stated that in my first post.  You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time; this has been happening for quite a while...

[pseudopianist]

It wasn't a personal attack or a complaint against anyone.  You did nothing wrong.  I stated that in my first post.  You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time; this has been happening for quite a while...

I've been here long enough to have incountered these kinds of topics. There is a diffrence I think from my topic and other like "Hi, I'm gonna play Rach 3 know... Should I?... No? Well *** you, I'm gonna do it anyway"

[SteinwayTony]

I've been here long enough to have incountered these kinds of topics. There is a diffrence I think from my topic and other like "Hi, I'm gonna play Rach 3 know... Should I?... No? Well *** you, I'm gonna do it anyway"

I'm fine with any opinion you have on my post so long as you realize that I'm not out to get you or anything.  That should be clear from my lengthy and (hopefully) helpful reply to your post. 

[pseudopianist]

I'm fine with any opinion you have on my post so long as you realize that I'm not out to get you or anything.  That should be clear from my lengthy and (hopefully) helpful reply to your post. 

It was a helpfull post-   

Just pretty hard not to take it personall when you used me as an example in your post of what I didn't want to be assosiated (spelling?) with.

[SteinwayTony]

Maybe you didn't want to learn the pieces "right now," but you are clearly trying to go faster than you ought to, in my opinion.  The question I'm asking, and the point of this thread, is whether or not the forum is the cause of your desire to skip all the mediocre pieces and jump right to the flashy ones. 

[pseudopianist]

Maybe you didn't want to learn the pieces "right now," but you clearly trying to go faster than you ought to, in my opinion.  The question I'm asking, and the point of this thread, is whether or not the forum is the cause of your desire to skip all the mediocre pieces and jump right to the flashy ones. 

So by asking how far away from the following piece that I have no intendtion playing right now, I was goinging faster then I should? I'm aware that I have have more to learn, the idea was to help me know HOW much.

[allchopin]

Someone once said it is often best for one to realize their erroneous ways by simply letting them have their way.

[willcowskitz]

The question I'm asking, and the point of this thread, is whether or not the forum is the cause of your desire to skip all the mediocre pieces and jump right to the flashy ones.

The forum being the cause? I can't relate to this, and don't see a way for this to be possible, unless its regarding someone who lacks social interaction in real life and because the piano forum is his only substitute for that, it starts to regulate his real life too. But nah, the reason is, as Hmoll said; to find a "secret handshake", or a shortcut if you will. Considering that, allchopin said it best.

[rob47]

maybe people should post recordings more often like daSDC board. I mean i'll start if i can figure out how to record more than 1 minute on my mp3 player. 

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

- Somebody wants to perform the Busoni Concerto.

Somebody... Oh please, don't keep me in suspense! Who is it?

Overall, I disagree with your post. What should stop anyone on this forum from playing the Busoni Concerto, or the Rach 3, or the Opus Clavicembalisticum, etc.? Do you think that people who play these pieces just woke up one day and were suddenly unbelievable pianists? No! I believe that anyone who has enough experience and who can put in the effort is certainly capable of playing these pieces.

As for my Busoni post... I find it rather insulting that you are accusing me of wanting to learn this because of its technical difficulties. I want to play it some day (remember, I said some day), because I love the actual piece. Really, if you love a piece, nothing should stop you from giving it your best shot.

Sure, in Luda888's case, we can see that he simply wanted to learn 'the hardest piece' simply because it was difficult. But then he told us he was 13. It is called immaturity. This does not count.

I suggest that you don't assume that people want to play these pieces based on their difficulty. And another thing - you don't know us, you can't see us, and you have never heard us play, so you would not know what we are technically capable of anyway. For all you know, I may be John Ogdon (I'm not, but you never know on Internet forums).

[lenny]

- Somebody (granted, it was Lenny) recommended that someone learn all the Godowsky Studies because it would be "helpful."

when did i say that?

its not exactly bad advice, if one has the time and inclination, its achievable, and will advance one's technique stratospherically.

[lostinidlewonder]

Does this forum instill a sense of urgency to perform the most unrealistic (and often superficial) virtuosic works?  Is it maybe the passive-aggressive competition on the board? 

I'd like to get your opinions on this matter, because, I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty irked by it.

Lots of funny but crap stuff is said online. That is alright though, because if you are confident in your ideas then it shouldn't bother you. However if you are lost and searching for advice, it could kill you. But who would ever totally embrace what is said online? Probably someone who has nothing else offered to them, it is free after all. It is free but it comes at a cost, the cost is, you need to know what to weed out and what to keep. That is good experience though isnt it?

I enjoy listening to people dicussing the extremes of music that is what makes a topic interesting. If we talk about little peices which dont challenge us where is the interest? Interest is in the hard stuff, the wild stuff, its like a destruction derby lol. Maybe it is the nature of forums topics. What the the most this or that, or what is the best this. Isnt that like the news you see on television? Always the bad stuff, things which stand out and shock. I would find it much more interesting personally if the difficult repetiore was actively analyised by those saying they are qualified and questions about the pieces where more targeted, like BAR X - Y. yeah mmmmm

[liszt1022]

maybe people should post recordings more often like daSDC board. I mean i'll start if i can figure out how to record more than 1 minute on my mp3 player. 

I had that mp3 problem, for me it was because it thought the volume level was too low and kept making new tracks. Are you recording on a line-in or a mic-in?

Also, don't post your recordings here unless you're really, really good. This board does not take kindly to faulty technique (I know this.)

[willcowskitz]

Oh and by the way, the problem shouldn't be the fact that people ask help in difficult pieces or want to know the difficulty level of a piece. Since when did this become "lame"? Of course I'm curious to know what my chances are with a beautiful piece, who isn't? The annoying thing are "Should I?" threads that ask questions from a subjective perspective and expect to get an answer from somebody not sharing that perspective. Other than that, we should always be ready to give technical advice to someone tackling a piece, regardless of their background, already because there are many people reading the forum and when you reply to someone's question it might always be useful for numerous other people browsing the site, so we shouldn't let personal ego-battles get in the way of that. I don't care if somebody wants to tackle the Opus Clavicembalisticum because he's a naïve 13 years old, what really matters is whether I can help or not. Refusing to give advice just because I suspect their "motives" is just as ridiculous as wanting to play Clavicembalisticum to show off. As long as we keep the conversation on a neutral, objective and "clinical" (regarding personas) level, only requirements are sensible questions and pertinent answers. Uninteresting and meaningless personal details put aside.

[apion]

And another thing - you don't know us, you can't see us, and you have never heard us play, so you would not know what we are technically capable of anyway. For all you know, I may be John Ogdon (I'm not, but you never know on Internet forums).

Actually, I had you pegged for Marc-Andre Hamelin.

[chromatickler]

It seems that the repertoire board has been revealing some pretty disappointing things about the forum and the people who use it.  Every other thread, while worded differently, all scream out "I must play the most technically taxing pieces in the repertoire and I must play them now."

perhaps just maybe there is a slight chance of possibilty that umm

they are more talented than you?

 

[hodi]

i think he meant that everyone here thinks he can play rach3 and busoni concerto and everyone says it's easy
these pieces are VERY DIFFICULT, and u shouldn't recommended them to people who are playing the piano for just 2 years

[SteinwayTony]

Well, that didn't really work out. 

About 90% of the people who responded completely twisted my words around, which I explicitly warned against.  I was not complaining, ranting, or insulting (I have said this from the beginning) and the people who snapped back at me conveniently interpreted my post so that I did just that.  I guess that way they could get their rage out and look intelligent at the same time.   That's very classy, but that wasn't really what I had in mind when I started this thread.

I apologize if I offended anyone, and I'm sorry I apparently didn't say what I wanted to say.

[willcowskitz]

SteinwayTony:

You did say you're irritated by how people "rush" into difficult works, apparently for the sake of getting what they want fast. If you've pointed this out to people in separate occasions, no wonder if they took this thread as half-personal "attack". If you've studied piano for a longer time, this kind of attitude and mentality probably does annoy you, but its not just piano; its everywhere. Just because we have the Internet and millions of people from all over the world can reach each other in seconds, this mentality is easier to witness - on just about any forum involving a hobby/profession that requires skills, there can be beginners who want everything "right now", but piano is especially fitting for these people because the act of playing the instrument seems easier than it is - all those beginners don't have the slightest clue of all the technical difficulties they will run into during their learning process, and blindened from this fact they think "If I can hit my fingers on Mary Has a Little Lamb, I can hit my fingers on räkhthree with a little more practice."  They simply are not aware of all the fine motorics that we must teach our hands when playing demanding music. Besides that, there's the romantic factor of playing emotionally charged music and at the same time looking very impressive. I think your question "Why?" has already been answered.

[dinosaurtales]

Yes, I agree with you.  I would like to write more on the subject but I am in kind of a hurry right now.  I have to go to my first lesson ever with a real teacher and Im really nervous about playing La Campanella, Paganini variations, and part of Brahms Concerto 2 for her, so i wanna be prepared.  I'll come back later.  Bye.

ROTFLMAO!!! 

If it's any consolation to you guys, my husband is an auto racing enthusiast, who spends lots of time on various car boards.  From his "input" it sounds like the BS factor on this board is NOTHING compared to the blowhards on the car boards.   Hmoll is right.  It's really a function of the medium - the odds are none of us will hear each other play, or even know who we really are in real life, so we can pump the BS till the cows come home. 

Also, I am not that old that I don't remember being a teenager with great enthusiasm for the piano.  I was playing some more advanced stuff - Beethoven sonatas, etc, but I also couldn'g resist buying the music for La Campanell and "messing" with it.  I had no hope of ever playing it really, but it was fun knowing what made it "hard" and trying it.  Some of the posts are that innocent.  Some aren't.  I just wade on through till I see something valuable for me.

[Bartolomeo]

Well, that didn't really work out. 

About 90% of the people who responded completely twisted my words around, which I explicitly warned against.

Relax.  It's not your fault that people have their goals mixed up.

Anyone whose goal is to be a recitalist or concert player owes it to themselves to understand the nature of the road that they're on, and what's expected.  They should realize that youth is mandatory, and that they must enroll in a highly regarded four year music program, do well there, go on to a graduate program, play the competition circuit, and then audition for one of the few jobs available.  They should understand that there are huge expectations at each level, and auditions, and that most people don't make it -- they end up in teaching, or in some nonperforming music job, or flame out and give up on music altogether.

And if you're not on that road, why invest the effort and musical energy in the nearly impossible pieces when there is so much other repertoire that audiences are more likely to enjoy?  It's not as though Rach 3 is some rite of passage that pianists must overcome in order to be a member of some club.  Better to learn a diversity of styles, periods, composers, and pieces, and be able to play everything from rennaisance harpsichord music on up to 80s piano bar stuff.  It's more fun that way, and listeners like it better.

[presto agitato]

Please don't mistake this post for a complaint, or a rant.  Actually I think I've intended it to be a sort of informal poll. 

It seems that the repertoire board has been revealing some pretty disappointing things about the forum and the people who use it.  Every other thread, while worded differently, all scream out "I must play the most technically taxing pieces in the repertoire and I must play them now."  Some of the more extreme cases of ridiculous posts:

- A user who has been playing for two years wants to play the first Chopin Ballade, both of the concertos, the most difficult P&F, the most difficult Chopin Prelude, and the Liszt Sonata, among other unrealistic ventures.

- Somebody asked for the sheet music to Opus Clavicembalisticum so they could start working on it.  Right.

- Somebody wants to perform the Busoni Concerto.

- Somebody (granted, it was Lenny) recommended that someone learn all the Godowsky Studies because it would be "helpful."

Does this forum instill a sense of urgency to perform the most unrealistic (and often superficial) virtuosic works?  Is it maybe the passive-aggressive competition on the board? 

I'd like to get your opinions on this matter, because, I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty irked by it.

Oh man, what a great post ¡¡¡. I 100% agree with you.

[Skeptopotamus]

um what a stupid post.  i COMPLETELY disagree with you.



if they say they want to play the liszt sonata and want practice tips on it, just give it to them or ignore them.  If they are just trying to show off it doesnt hurt anything anyways.  If they want the sorabji give it to them!  They probably just want to see it.


AND PS what is with that busoni concerto comment?

[e60m5]

Heh, dude. Take a chill pill. Don't come to these boards expecting that the only people that post here are serious, serious pianists. Of course, somebody who thinks they're a serious pianist and somebody who really is a serious pianist are two very different people. There are some great posters on this board (such as Bernhard to list but one), but also a lot of others that post topics like the ones you mentioned. Do what I do and treat such topics with amusement. It's pretty funny sometimes how absurd people can get. 

[Muzakian]

Oh and by the way, the problem shouldn't be the fact that people ask help in difficult pieces or want to know the difficulty level of a piece. Since when did this become "lame"? Of course I'm curious to know what my chances are with a beautiful piece, who isn't? The annoying thing are "Should I?" threads that ask questions from a subjective perspective and expect to get an answer from somebody not sharing that perspective. Other than that, we should always be ready to give technical advice to someone tackling a piece, regardless of their background, already because there are many people reading the forum and when you reply to someone's question it might always be useful for numerous other people browsing the site, so we shouldn't let personal ego-battles get in the way of that. I don't care if somebody wants to tackle the Opus Clavicembalisticum because he's a naïve 13 years old, what really matters is whether I can help or not. Refusing to give advice just because I suspect their "motives" is just as ridiculous as wanting to play Clavicembalisticum to show off. As long as we keep the conversation on a neutral, objective and "clinical" (regarding personas) level, only requirements are sensible questions and pertinent answers. Uninteresting and meaningless personal details put aside.

Hear hear! Not everyone's goal is to be a concert pianist, nor to have the best technique. Likewise people have different motives when it comes to the music they choose to play. It isn't anyone's place on the forum to tell others what their goals and motives ought to be. That's what irks me SteinwayTony.

[fred smalls]

I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE!!! (Although my view on the matter is much more extreme). I find that, even though i have much respect for my fellow pianists, that many, many people on this site are very pretentious and brag subtly about how they should learn incredibly hard pieces. They also pretend to know everything and treat people who ask for help as their inferiors. I think those people should either provide us with proof of thier genius, or just stop bragging! I'm sorry, but not many people learn incredibly difficult pieces within 2 years or such, ahhhhh! So lets be modest, please, please...

(I'm sure there will be some sort of defence to this accusation, so bring it on! )

[aquariuswb]

Heh, dude. Take a chill pill. Don't come to these boards expecting that the only people that post here are serious, serious pianists. Of course, somebody who thinks they're a serious pianist and somebody who really is a serious pianist are two very different people. There are some great posters on this board (such as Bernhard to list but one), but also a lot of others that post topics like the ones you mentioned. Do what I do and treat such topics with amusement. It's pretty funny sometimes how absurd people can get. 

Yo, I just listened to your clips at Piano Society... I'll just keep this short, you are truly gifted and I can only fantasize about playing that well. Post more clips when you get the chance!
 -Mike

[SteinwayTony]

Heh, dude. Take a chill pill. Don't come to these boards expecting that the only people that post here are serious, serious pianists. Of course, somebody who thinks they're a serious pianist and somebody who really is a serious pianist are two very different people. There are some great posters on this board (such as Bernhard to list but one), but also a lot of others that post topics like the ones you mentioned. Do what I do and treat such topics with amusement. It's pretty funny sometimes how absurd people can get. 

Paul, you don't get it.  But that's okay, since not many do.

Here is an example of the type of person / thread I am talking about:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7121.0.html

[lenny]

Paul, you don't get it.  But that's okay, since not many do.

Here is an example of the type of person / thread I am talking about:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7121.0.html

you bring it on yourself, please mutilate your genitals then die, thanks

[e60m5]

Paul, you don't get it.  But that's okay, since not many do.

Here is an example of the type of person / thread I am talking about:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7121.0.html

I really do get it, by the way. I've been here since 2002, and know very well what these boards are like. Not like there's anything we can do about it, though. Just sit back and enjoy the show 

[e60m5]

Yo, I just listened to your clips at Piano Society... I'll just keep this short, you are truly gifted and I can only fantasize about playing that well. Post more clips when you get the chance!
 -Mike

Thanks man! It means a lot to me. Hope you enjoyed the music!

[Torp]

I really do get it, by the way. I've been here since 2002, and know very well what these boards are like. Not like there's anything we can do about it, though. Just sit back and enjoy the show 

From your other posts along these subjects I think you have stumbled on one of the most important techniques in the world.  I like to call it "The Spock Technique."  Yup, of Star Trek fame.  Whenever Spock came across anything he always just said, "Fascinating."  He never got attached to it, upset by it, or otherwise moved by it at all.  He looked at it from a detached point of view and determined whether the concept needed further investigation.  I love this technique myself.  It's probably saved my life, literally, a few times.

Keep it real.  It appears that you not only have your **** together, but you also remember where you put it.

Jef