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[steinwayguy]

If you're implying that you would want to learn it,
Don't even think about considering learning Opus 111 unless you've played at least 7 or 8 Beethoven sonatas. In fact, don't approach a late Beethoven sonata (90, 101, 106, 109, 110 and 111) until you know at least three others.

Overall, I'd say the Waldstein (Op. 53), is the "simplest" Beethoven sonata. Not exactly the easiest to play, but...

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

If you're implying that you would want to learn it,
Don't even think about considering learning Opus 111 unless you've played at least 7 or 8 Beethoven sonatas. In fact, don't approach a late Beethoven sonata (90, 101, 106, 109, 110 and 111) until you know at least three others.

Overall, I'd say the Waldstein (Op. 53), is the "simplest" Beethoven sonata. Not exactly the easiest to play, but...

He never said he wanted to learn it... And the Waldstein is hardly simple. In fact, it is one of Beethoven's most complex piano sonatas from the Middle Period.

Pi - Yes, it is a wonderful piece. You really should hear the whole thing, though.

So far, it is the only piece I know of that is like... that. I mean, I have never heard another piece that is even remotely similar to it.

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[SteinwayTony]

Overall, I'd say the Waldstein (Op. 53), is the "simplest" Beethoven sonata.

Wow. 

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[Pianostudy]

Overall, I'd say the Waldstein (Op. 53), is the "simplest" Beethoven sonata. Not exactly the easiest to play, but...

I disagree.  On the contrary, the Waldstein is one of the more complex, difficult sonatas.  Many passages are quite beastly and overall it is HARDLY the "simplest" sonata.

[chopiabin]

I've heard it described as a sort of "concerto for solo piano" and that you need to be able to deal with the difficulties of a piano concerto (probably a Beethoven one) to play it adequately.

[steinwayguy]

And the Waldstein is hardly simple. In fact, it is one of Beethoven's most complex piano sonatas from the Middle Period.

Seriously. Look at it. C Major, G Major, B Major, D-flat Major, G7. Practically everything is an arpeggio or a scale. There's no way in hell that it is 'one of the most complex piano sonatas from the Middle Period". It's the easiest sonata to sight-read, undoubtedly. Structurally, yeah, it's not simple. But if you go measure by measure, it is the simplest sonata. I stand by my word.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Seriously. Look at it. C Major, G Major, B Major, D-flat Major, G7. Practically everything is an arpeggio or a scale. There's no way in hell that it is 'one of the most complex piano sonatas from the Middle Period". It's the easiest sonata to sight-read, undoubtedly. Structurally, yeah, it's not simple. But if you go measure by measure, it is the simplest sonata. I stand by my word.

You obviously know very little about Beethoven sonatas. Having played this one myself, I have authority in this matter. The easiest sonata to sight-read?! Haven't you ever heard of his 'Easy' Sonata in G Major (or the one in G Minor)? Seriously, the Waldstein is one of the most difficulty sonatas he wrote prior to the Late ones.

[rab1588]

the waldstein is hard as hell, no way simple, and definately not easy to sightread. its actually a monster compared to at least 15 other beethoven sonatas.

[steinwayguy]

You obviously know very little about Beethoven sonatas. Having played this one myself, I have authority in this matter. The easiest sonata to sight-read?! Haven't you ever heard of his 'Easy' Sonata in G Major (or the one in G Minor)? Seriously, the Waldstein is one of the most difficulty sonatas he wrote prior to the Late ones.

Yeah, great, grand, you and every other person has played the Waldstein. I'm not saying it is easy to play, genius. And yes, it is the easiest Mid-Late sonata to sight-read. And the Opus 49 sonatas shouldn't even be considered middle period because they were written before Opus 2, and since you have authority over me, I'm sure you knew that already.

[aquariuswb]

Yeah, great, grand, you and every other person has played the Waldstein. I'm not saying it is easy to play, genius. And yes, it is the easiest Mid-Late sonata to sight-read. And the Opus 49 sonatas shouldn't even be considered middle period because they were written before Opus 2, and since you have authority over me, I'm sure you knew that already.

I also disagree with you. There is no way the Waldstein is anywhere even close to the easiest or simplest Beethoven piano sonata. It's on the total other end of the spectrum. I'm working on it right now, in fact, and am quite familiar with the piece and its technical difficulties. I also am an avid LvB PS listener, and I've listened to them all multiple times while studying the scores (obviously I haven't played them all). I'm not saying that I have authority over you, so please don't attack me in that way, but I am saying that I am at least somewhat educated on the matter. Educated enough to safely say that if you asked experienced pianists to rank the LvB sonatas in order of difficulty, the Waldstein would almost always be in the top ten -- perhaps sometimes even in the top five -- right behind most of the late sonatas.

[lostinidlewonder]

Fight! Fight! Fight! lol.

The waldstien isnt easy to read or play, all Cmajor (3rd movement moves to Eb but mostly it is C) so you have to notice all these stupid accidentals. Form/Memory is hardest to crack in Cmajor as well in my opinion. I guess you could underestimate Waldstien because patterns look logical and simple, but put the foot down play it at peformance speed and then you'll see its hidden difficulties and how tough it can be to position yourself constantly.

Op111 isnt too hard actually. There is a lot of repeated pattern which makes absorbing it very fast in many sections.

Listen to more of Beethovens later works. Like piano sonata, op101,109,110,111, and string quartets op127,130,131,132 and 135. In these Beethoven abandoned the classical 3 or 4 movement structure. Like the 111 only has 2 movements, there is much more emphasis on the constrast between movements. So i guess chosing pieces which hold the same idea would echo what Beethoven was trying to do.

Beethoven sorta lent towards variation and fugal procedures in his later works and the themes where more gradually presented. In this case lots of Bach pieces come into mind which echo similarity.

His "middle period" style found its way again however in the Hammerklavier Sonata, op106 and the Ninth (Choral) Symphony. But these works are colored by a new ideas and directions, just listen to them to hear for yourself.

[pianiststrongbad]

I have to agree that the Waldstein is one of the harder Beethoven sonatas.  There are so many things that can go wrong in performance with this piece.

[steinwayguy]

I also disagree with you. There is no way the Waldstein is anywhere even close to the easiest or simplest Beethoven piano sonata. It's on the total other end of the spectrum. I'm working on it right now, in fact, and am quite familiar with the piece and its technical difficulties. I also am an avid LvB PS listener, and I've listened to them all multiple times while studying the scores (obviously I haven't played them all). I'm not saying that I have authority over you, so please don't attack me in that way, but I am saying that I am at least somewhat educated on the matter. Educated enough to safely say that if you asked experienced pianists to rank the LvB sonatas in order of difficulty, the Waldstein would almost always be in the top ten -- perhaps sometimes even in the top five -- right behind most of the late sonatas.

If you're going to quote me, read what I actually said first, moron. It's not nearly the easiest to play. But note by note, it is the simplest and the easiest to sight read. It is extremely difficult, I never contested that. Get over yourself.

Op111 isnt too hard actually. There is a lot of repeated pattern which makes absorbing it very fast in many sections.

You're a flaming idiot.

Listen to more of Beethovens later works. Like piano sonata, op101,109,110,111, and string quartets op127,130,131,132 and 135. In these Beethoven abandoned the classical 3 or 4 movement structure. Like the 111 only has 2 movements, there is much more emphasis on the constrast between movements. So i guess chosing pieces which hold the same idea would echo what Beethoven was trying to do.

That was the most purposeless, pointless and insignificant thing I have read in the last week. Dont' lecture people when you've already invalidated any comment you will make in the future by saying that "Opus 111 isn't that hard". You try to play it well, genius. And you should probably look to Opus 90 before 111 when considering two contrasting movements. Failure.

[pianonut]

how about that crazy sonata in D major, Op. 10 #2.  I thought it would be a breeze.  there's a lot of wildness to it, tho, in the dynamics, rhythm, sustained pedal notes, etc.

someday i want to play the op. 111 and just see for myself how it compares with the Walstein.  i understand about what lost-in-idle wonder is saying because sometimes the difficulty isn't technique.  it's interpretation.  i'm learning to not just ask 'can i play it' but 'can i interpret it?'  that would go for the Walstein, too.

was reading about 'late beethoven' by maynard solomon.  he says that beethoven started writing an intimate diary (german: tagebuch) to which he confided his inmost feelings and desires.  he started this diary to encourage himself (as he was totally deaf in 1818 and the diary was between 1812-1818).  his first entry was "you must not be a human being, not for yourself, but only for others; for you there is no longer any happiness except within yourself, in your art."

in his last sonatas he chose to "work out possible reconfigurations of musical form and to sound unplumbed depths of expressivity."  this goes along with the idea he had scribbled down [zeit findet divchaus bey Gott nicht statt - or, For God, time absolutely does not exist] 1816 

[steinwayguy]

how about that crazy sonata in D major, Op. 10 #2. I thought it would be a breeze. there's a lot of wildness to it, tho, in the dynamics, rhythm, sustained pedal notes, etc.

someday i want to play the op. 111 and just see for myself how it compares with the Walstein. i understand about what lost-in-idle wonder is saying because sometimes the difficulty isn't technique. it's interpretation. i'm learning to not just ask 'can i play it' but 'can i interpret it?' that would go for the Walstein, too.

was reading about 'late beethoven' by maynard solomon. he says that beethoven started writing an intimate diary (german: tagebuch) to which he confided his inmost feelings and desires. he started this diary to encourage himself (as he was totally deaf in 1818 and the diary was between 1812-1818). his first entry was "you must not be a human being, not for yourself, but only for others; for you there is no longer any happiness except within yourself, in your art."

in his last sonatas he chose to "work out possible reconfigurations of musical form and to sound unplumbed depths of expressivity." this goes along with the idea he had scribbled down [zeit findet divchaus bey Gott nicht statt - or, For God, time absolutely does not exist] 1816

Op. 10 No. 3 D Major?

The first movement of Opus 111 is extremely difficult technically, just as difficult technically as the Waldstein. Interpretatively, obviously it's extremely difficult. But the emotional difficulty of this piece is what defines it. The last of the Beethoven sonatas, and the most sublime. The spiritual significance is overwhelming.

[lostinidlewonder]

errr, the question was which pieces are like op111, so i rambled off a few which are similar in structure. Calm down charlie lol

[lostinidlewonder]

That was the most purposeless, pointless and insignificant thing I have read in the last week. Dont' lecture people when you've already invalidated any comment you will make in the future by saying that "Opus 111 isn't that hard". You try to play it well, genius. And you should probably look to Opus 90 before 111 when considering two contrasting movements. Failure.

yy....*** and here i was thinking all these people who came to my concert came to watch me play nice music... i never knew i was this big failure...   i think i will go and cry now. Im such a failure... I think ill take up the spoons as well... maybe i can play op111 with that. yes i will do that.

[apion]

I also disagree with you. There is no way the Waldstein is anywhere even close to the easiest or simplest Beethoven piano sonata. It's on the total other end of the spectrum. I'm working on it right now, in fact, and am quite familiar with the piece and its technical difficulties. I also am an avid LvB PS listener, and I've listened to them all multiple times while studying the scores (obviously I haven't played them all). I'm not saying that I have authority over you, so please don't attack me in that way, but I am saying that I am at least somewhat educated on the matter. Educated enough to safely say that if you asked experienced pianists to rank the LvB sonatas in order of difficulty, the Waldstein would almost always be in the top ten -- perhaps sometimes even in the top five -- right behind most of the late sonatas.

I totally agree with this post, and I also speak with considerable experience.

It's very unlikely that the Waldstein would rank other than as one of the top 5 most difficult LvB piano sonatas (all things considered).  In any case, it is arguably one of LvB's 5 greatest piano sonatas, and the final movement is simply sublime.

Equally important, it is one of the most impressive sonatas to perform in a competition.  Musically and technically, the Waldstein is appropriately viewed as one of the 10 greatest sonatas of all time. 

[pianonut]

the D major sonata is as you say, #3.

i have appreciated reading everyone's input on the difficulty levels because sometimes you just don't know until you actually try the piece.  there are intricacies of pedalling, playing very seriously (in the past i've always had trouble with very very slow pieces - unless i can get into the 'zone' - and then am ok)  i liked what other people posted in another area about putting a sentence (or words together that match the rhythms, and possibly even words that would give you a hint as to the notes you are playing next).  i started doing a little of this with brahms, and mozart.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

If you're going to quote me, read what I actually said first, moron. It's not nearly the easiest to play. But note by note, it is the simplest and the easiest to sight read. It is extremely difficult, I never contested that. Get over yourself.

It is not necessary to get so angry. You were wrong, no matter what you meant. It is time to drop it, and forget the whole thing ever happened. Also, from what I've seen, you have been the only one who has truly acted like a moron in this argument.

You're a flaming idiot.

Wow, impressive. What a terrific pre-pubescent remark you've made.

Please, refrain from saying things like this. It really says a lot about your character. All I can say is... calm down.

Thanks.

[rodrk352]

      Let me insert myself into this argument (always a dangerous thing to do) as a way of moderating the tensions. First of all, I myself play the Waldstein sonata, not nearly on the consummate level of a professional, but well enough to get great pleasure out of it. Beautiful piece, with amazing invention, and it was well worth the time to learn it. The sonata isn't "simple." Maybe straightforward is what you meant to say. There are so many hidden difficulties, but it's still possible to fudge the work at many different places and still press forward enjoyably. The work has such great momentum in it (after a pause for breath in the slow movement) Of course it is difficult to play this work brilliantly, as it should be, at a rollicking pace. The only time I heard a graduate student (at Yale) come to a dead-stop during a recital was when she was playing the last movement of this piece! It is commonly programmed. Even one of the teachers played it at his own recital this year.

[aquariuswb]

If you're going to quote me, read what I actually said first, moron. It's not nearly the easiest to play. But note by note, it is the simplest and the easiest to sight read. It is extremely difficult, I never contested that. Get over yourself.

I'm the moron? I seem to recall you saying something like, "Overall, I'd say the Waldstein is the 'simplest' LvB sonata." That has got to be the most idiotic and uneducated statement I have ever read on this forum. Notice how when I disagreed with you I did so in a polite manner, so as not to offend the barren wasteland that is apparently your mind. I even said:

I'm not saying that I have authority over you, so please don't attack me in that way

In case you didn't notice, this was another way of saying, "Judging by your prior posts in this thread, you will probably overreact and take my disagreement as a personal attack, but there's no need for that."

And what do you mean that it's the easiest to sight-read? Maybe the first page is easily sight-read, but what about the extended triplet sections that modulate all over the place (all of them, in both the first and third movements)? What about the extended right-hand trills that are played as the right-hand also plays a melody line... not to mention the concurrent left-hand ascending/descending lines that change between 16th and 32nd notes, and between staccato and legato... What about the octave glissandi? What about the fact that, although C Major is the key signature, it modulates to different keys many times? This means a crapload of accidentals that are not easy to keep track of when sight-reading -- in fact, they are quite difficult to keep track of while sight-reading. Your argument holds no water. You're just wrong. And hot-headed.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I'm the moron? I seem to recall you saying something like, "Overall, I'd say the Waldstein is the 'simplest' LvB sonata." That has got to be the most idiotic and uneducated statement I have ever read on this forum. Notice how when I disagreed with you I did so in a polite manner, so as not to offend the barren wasteland that is apparently your mind. I even said:


In case you didn't notice, this was another way of saying, "Judging by your prior posts in this thread, you will probably overreact and take my disagreement as a personal attack, but there's no need for that."

And what do you mean that it's the easiest to sight-read? Maybe the first page is easily sight-read, but what about the extended triplet sections that modulate all over the place (all of them, in both the first and third movements)? What about the extended right-hand trills that are played as the right-hand also plays a melody line... not to mention the concurrent left-hand ascending/descending lines that change between 16th and 32nd notes, and between staccato and legato... What about the octave glissandi? What about the fact that, although C Major is the key signature, it modulates to different keys many times? This means a crapload of accidentals that are not easy to keep track of when sight-reading -- in fact, they are quite difficult to keep track of while sight-reading. Your argument holds no water. You're just wrong. And hot-headed.

Aquariuswb hit the nail on the head. Well said!

[aquariuswb]

SteinwayGuy --
   
     I didn't mean to get so personal and attacking there... I just don't appreciate being called a moron. I have nothing against you, and I find your posts very informative in this forum, as well as in the GMG forum. I do not think you are idiotic or uneducated, so please accept my apology.

    --Mike

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[aquariuswb]

I was able to listen to the Waldstein. Wondrous. But definitely not the easiest. No. 20  (Op 49) is the easiest I've heard so far.

You can't always tell just by listening, but in this case you're right -- Op. 49/2 is definitely one of the easiest LvB sonatas, if not the easiest.

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[steinwayguy]

Argument over.

No hard feelings!