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Topic: Learning impossible pieces?  (Read 1446 times)

Offline wildman

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Learning impossible pieces?
on: November 07, 2023, 08:29:05 AM
Greetings all,

I would like your insights on an issue I've been dealing with lately.

A bit of background. I have been studying piano for about 14 years and have a Bachelors in piano performance. I have been able to play the Schumann Concerto and Fantasy in Scriabin in concert.

It's been a few years since I graduated from the conservatory and I have since self-studied. Now, my ambition is to do my own lecture recital featuring works by Liszt.

For this programme, which I hope to deliver in several months' time, I have been studying his infamous 'La Clochette' fantasy for around 5-7 months and have had trouble executing a few extremely difficult passages.



These include 1) Two rapid double octave passages (3:25 one before the theme in E Major, 13:32 and the ending one in A Major), 2) 2:54 a rapid alternating double note chromatic passage in the RH in the "Allegro moderato" section in the Intro, 3) 5:21 the leaps in the "Variation ŕ la Paganini" section.

Up to now, I am not able to execute these properly. I foresee the octave sections as the most difficult to overcome; I am unable to play them at a rapid tempo as the score demands.

I would say I have made some progress since the beginning of course, but I fear that I may never reach my goal. Perhaps the piece is just too difficult for me?

I actually forced myself to do a performance last year where I managed to play Kapustin's étude and a Tatum transcription. At that time, I grew to hate the process since I had to record myself and the whole ordeal was really grueling. The result was that I technically managed to play them at the tempo I aimed at (albeit with a lot of mistakes) but thought they could have been much better (so it wasn't really at a level that satisfied me). And I only got to play them that way after many takes. These two pieces were the type of piece which I felt was beyond my technical level and I self-studied them.

My situation now is that I am currently unable to find lessons since my job is in a region where there are no schools or piano teachers.

I can envision several options:

1) Force myself to continue practising in the hopes that perhaps I might slowly, but eventually, reach the goal;
2) Continue practising the piece but only as an exercise and not as something to be performed;
3) Continue practising the piece but with supplementary technical exercises from Hanon or Liszt's own book of technical exercises to hasten the progress;
4) Abandon the piece altogether and instead select repertoire that is more attainable for my technique level.

For option #3: I had actually tried some of these exercises in college but my experience was that they were not necessary (granted, my repertoire at that time was probably more within my capabilities) because they only tired me and I saw more development when I simply tackled the pieces directly.

For option #4: If I simply abandon the piece, is there any possibility at all that I could one day manage to really perform it to standard? If so, what must be done to get to that level of technical proficiency?

I would certainly grab the opportunity to go back to formal lessons but I can only do so once I leave my job so it's not really something I can see myself doing in the moment.

Would love to hear your advice on this, thank you.


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Offline piabanoch

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Re: Learning impossible pieces?
Reply #1 on: November 08, 2023, 02:37:15 PM
Hello, i think the first option would be the best, but at your level you should know how to practise. i would be aware of learning such a technical difficult piece. I would say the 1 option by the way  :)
I can't control Music, but Music controls me

Offline wildman

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Re: Learning impossible pieces?
Reply #2 on: December 24, 2023, 07:09:14 AM
Hello, i think the first option would be the best, but at your level you should know how to practise. i would be aware of learning such a technical difficult piece. I would say the 1 option by the way  :)

Thanks for your reply.

I am still trying to get the octaves to speed. Normally when practising difficult technical music I practise the hard parts very slowly, in a relaxed and focused way, and then slowly increase the tempo within a range that is still comfortable for me. I repeat and repeat this until my mind tires and then forget it for the day.

I do that process over several months with the goal of gradually internalizing the motions required to execute the hard passage.

This is how I have always practised in my college years and how I managed to graduate. My teacher generally only gave interpretative pointers.

I have rarely used technical exercises or analyzed my physical motions. I relied on slow practise in a relaxed and focused way many many times.

I worry that I have reached a plateau and am unable to attain the speed I want for those hard sections, such as the octave portion.

Offline roboute guilliman cfa

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Re: Learning impossible pieces?
Reply #3 on: December 25, 2023, 12:48:40 AM
3:18, 2:54, also 7:40 broken tenths are legitimately difficult but I think you need to attempt these pieces after octaves are no longer a concern. In the overall context of Liszt's total repertoire, he is not intending these octaves to be difficult, but rather "I'm throwing in octaves for the pianist to have a little fun. He will have learned my Mazeppa, Vision, Eroica etudes, Hungarian rhapsody 12, La Campanella, Chopin octave etude etc. It'll be trivially easy for him." So I would visit/revisit these pieces and dial it in.

For the jumps, you can learn these from certain pieces like Scriabin sonata no 5, Petrushka, Mephisto waltz, Schumann fantasie. But at a certain level I think technique at a rare level can only be gained through creative ways. Just like Brahms turned op 25 no 2 into a great double note exercise or how Cortot came up with ways to refine the Chopin etude techniques, you can put different spins on the material and turn things into your own specialized etude.  Or how Dreyshock and Cziffra made octave exercises out of Chopin op 10 and Rach flight of the bumblee etc.

For example I took Scriabin etude op 42 no 7 and doubled the length of the jumps and practiced it so that I can play this modified version at around 126, the original marked tempo. I sightread the 5:16 jumps part (just the right hand alone). This is a great etude, you can use it as a model to come up a couple bars on this to target other length of jumps as well, or to match the 5:16 style of jumps more closely. You can also make it by harder by making the jump from the pinky to the 2nd finger, instead of the thumb, etc.

Or take the Liszt excerpt at 5:16 and increase the jump to ninths or tenths, between pinky to 2nd finger. Then the originally difficult thing becomes a lot easier.

A lot of creativity and ability to be flexible in your practice techniques comes as you're working on appropriate-difficulty pieces. You're learning them not to just learn them but catalogue for specialized use. I don't think you should skip over the entirety of the Scriabin sonatas/Prokofiev sonata/Rach 3/Gaspard de la Nuit level of repertoire and go into something even more extreme in difficulty.
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