Tournament for the HARDEST piece in common repertoire?!

[liszt-and-the-galops]

I've seen a ton of "hardest piece ever!!!" threads. Since March Madness is happening in the US right now, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to hold a single-elimination tournament decided by popular vote; a kind of "Musical Madness," for an overused term. The matches would be decided on a popular vote using the built-in poll system (thank you, Nils!) on pianostreet. The matches would be randomly generated from pieces mentioned in the comments, with up to 32 pieces being in the tournament. I have a set of 32 in mind, if there aren't many piece recommendations.
Any ideas for how to run this thing would be appreciated, and please comment below!

Also, there are a few things I feel like we'd have to avoid:

• Sonatas, symphonies, etc. These are often simply too long and would sweep the tournament.
• Pieces over an half hour in length. same reason as above.
• Pieces that are played/known about by essentially no one. These pieces are not in common repertoire, which is the point of this tournament.
• If applicable, longer things like Gaspard, HR 2, and Petrushka can be broken up by movement. Once again, no pieces more than 30 minutes long.
  

If there are any other things that we shouldn't include, please comment them.

Also, please vote in the pole if you support a thing like this.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

I have a set of 32 in mind, if there aren't many piece recommendations.

In case you're wondering what the 32 pieces I have in my head right now are:
Scarlatti - K. 141
Liszt - La Campanella
Chopin - Etude 25/11
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 1
Liszt - Friska (Hungarian Rhapsody #2 mvt. 2)
Mussorgsky - Baba Yaga (from Pictures at an Exhibition)
Chopin - Heroic Polonaise
Liszt - Mazeppa
Balakirev - Islamey
Chopin - Etude 10/1
Debussy - Reflets dans l'eau
Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsody #6
Chopin - 25/6
Rachmaninoff - Moment Musicaux #4
Ravel - Le Gibet
Chopin - Etude 10/8
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 3
Ravel - Ondine
Liszt - Wilde Jagd
Chopin - Etude 10/2
Mussorgsky - Bogatyr Gates (also from Pictures at an Exhibition)
Liszt - Un Sospiro
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 2
Chopin - Ballade #4
Liszt - Grand Galop Chromatique
Rachmaninoff - Etude Tableau 29/6
Chopin - Etude 10/4
Liszt - Feux Follets
Ravel - Scarbo
Chopin - Ballade #1
Liszt - Hamelin Cadenza (HR #2 mvt. 3)
Once again, feel free to suggest any replacements.

[transitional]

I support it as long as the Goldberg Variations, the Hamerklavier Sonata, El Contrabandista, 4'33", and some Sorabji are included.

I'd also suggest Mozart K 576, which may be an unpopular opinion, but I suck at Mozart. Like I'd consider K 279 at around the same difficulty as Hungarian Rhapsody #2 (played both). But no one will agree with this, so don't include it if you don't want to.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

the Goldberg Variations

the whats?

the Hamerklavier Sonata

way more than half an hour long...

El Contrabandista

Maybe? I haven't seen anyone play that, so I don't know if it counts as common repertoire.

4'33"

I'm starting to get the feeling that this is a joke...

some Sorabji are included.

Is there even ANY Sorabji that's under half an hour? lol.

I don't listen to Mozart, Bach, or Beethoven often. So if there's a really hard piece by one of them that fits the 30 minute requirement, I probably have missed it.

[transitional]

No, the 4'33" part is the only part about it that was a joke. Sorry for not understanding the specifications the first time. The Goldbergs are really long and momentous so I don't think limiting it to a single variation would be of much use here. You can cut 4'33" lol, as well as Sorabji. Seems you've ruled all sonatas out, too.

I guess you don't need to put El Contrabandista since it's not common repertoire, ok. (I do suggest you give a listen, though, it's monostrously difficult for sure.) One thing I'm surprised about but not necessary is that you didn't include Chopin's 4th ballade on your list. Another one you might consider is Schumann's Toccata.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

One thing I'm surprised about but not necessary is that you didn't include Chopin's 4th ballade on your list.

Ballade #4 is on there, between grand galop chromatique and petrushka mvt. 2.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Another one you might consider is Schumann's Toccata.

I just gave the Toccata a listen; seems to be about the level of Galop Chromatique, if not a little easier. Not sure it counts as common repertoire though, as Schumann as a whole is fairly unknown.
Also, not all sonatas are out of the question. The reason I put that in there is because most sonatas are longer than 30 minutes. A short sonata like K. 141 (Scarlatti) would be fine.

[transitional]

I just gave the Toccata a listen; seems to be about the level of Galop Chromatique, if not a little easier. Not sure it counts as common repertoire though, as Schumann as a whole is fairly unknown.
Also, not all sonatas are out of the question. The reason I put that in there is because most sonatas are longer than 30 minutes. A short sonata like K. 141 (Scarlatti) would be fine.

If you think it is not common repertoire, look at how many pianostreet forums of it there are: https://www.pianostreet.com/schumann-sheet-music/toccata-op-7-c-major.htm

Versus Grand Galop Chromatique: https://www.pianostreet.com/liszt-sheet-music/grand-galop-chromatique.htm

If you can include short sonatas, I'd say Mozart's K 576 3rd movement. I've read through it before, and it's WAY harder than it sounds. (which is an unpopular opinion). Hammerklavier 4th movement if that's not too long.

I see you put Reflets dans l'eau on the list, and if that can make the list, then surely Feux d'artifice can too.

Of course, choose whatever you want, these are merely my own ideas.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Majority has voted yes (technically), so why not.
I'll send the bracket soon.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Updated list. Songs will be crossed off if they are eliminated and bolded if they have advanced. Underlined songs are currently in a matchup and italicized songs are currently ahead in those matchups.
Scarlatti - K. 141
Liszt - La Campanella
Chopin - Etude 25/11
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 1
Liszt - Friska (Hungarian Rhapsody #2 mvt. 2)
Debussy - Feux D'artifice
Chopin - Heroic Polonaise
Liszt - Mazeppa
Balakirev - Islamey
Chopin - Etude 10/1
Debussy - Reflets dans l'eau
Mussorgsky - Baba Yaga (from Pictures at an Exhibition)
Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsody #6
Chopin - 25/6
Rachmaninoff - Moment Musicaux #4
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 3
Chopin - Etude 10/8
Liszt - Wilde Jagd
Ravel - Ondine
Mussorgsky - Bogatyr Gates (from Pictures at an Exhibition)
Chopin - Etude 10/2
Schumann - Toccata op. 7
Liszt - Un Sospiro
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 2
Chopin - Ballade #4
Liszt - Grand Galop Chromatique
Rachmaninoff - Etude Tableau 29/6
Chopin - Etude 10/4
Liszt - Feux Follets
Ravel - Scarbo
Chopin - Ballade #1
Liszt - Hamelin Cadenza (HR #2 mvt. 3)

[liszt-and-the-galops]

The bracket is complete!
It was entirely randomly generated, so I legitimately don't know how we got matches 9 and 10. As far as I'm aware, that's the group of death lol.
Sorry for the bad quality, I can't figure out how to turn it into an image I can put on here.

[lelle]

This could be the main thread and you could add links to each round in the original post every time you add a new round/topic

[liszt-and-the-galops]

This could be the main thread and you could add links to each round in the original post every time you add a new round/topic

since some people may be unfamiliar with the pieces/sections referenced: maybe add a youtube link to each selection to your post?

I like those ideas.

[lelle]

Thanks! I like your tournament idea so happy to help out.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

 
Link to Round 1-1 (all rounds will be listed in the format of round# - match# from now on):
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70760.msg730693;topicseen#msg730693

Link to round 1-2: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70765.msg730702;topicseen#msg730702

Link to round 1-3: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70770.msg730765;topicseen#msg730765

Link to round 1-4: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70771.0

Link to round 1-5: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70779.0

Link to round 1-6: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70780.0

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Funny thing I just noticed...
I'm sure that some of have seen Rousseau's horrid video on "most difficult piano pieces." I don't remember the exact songs (except for the top half because of how ridiculous it was ), but I do remember I didn't include his 7-10. We've already voted out his 1 and 3, his 6 is losing badly, and his 2, 4, and 5 are all in extremely tough matchups.
Basically, this tournament seems to hate Rousseau, which I find hilarious.

Edit: fixed the numbers I got wrong.

[transitional]

Funny thing I just noticed...
I'm sure that some of have seen Rousseau's horrid video on "most difficult piano pieces." I don't remember the exact songs (except for the top half because of how ridiculous it was ), but I do remember I didn't include his 7-10. We've already voted out his 1 and 3, his 6 is losing badly, and his 2, 4, and 5 are all in extremely tough matchups.
Basically, this tournament seems to hate Rousseau, which I find hilarious.

Edit: fixed the numbers I got wrong.

I guess these are the most difficult pieces that Rousseau can play - and below, he admits that it is to trick the algorithm, suggesting a more realistic top 10 (so why do you call this the top 10 huh?):
10) Balakirev - Islamey
9) Beethoven - Hammerklavier (Piano Sonata No. 29)
Ravel - Gaspard de la nuit
7) Godowsky - Passacaglia in B Minor
6) Liszt - Gallop in A Minor
5) Alkan - Concerto for Solo Piano
4) Ligeti - Piano Concerto
3) Xenakis - Mists
2) Messiaen - Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus
1) Sorabji - Symphonic Variations for Piano
I guess it's all about fame and money nowadays now, huh 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

I seldom check the comments, which explains why I missed this. I would be honored for Galop in A Minor to have been included, but he spelled it wrong.
Also, why the sunglasses instead of 8???

[transitional]

Also, why the sunglasses instead of 8???

Because Piano Street automatically turns 8 ) without spaces into an emoji.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Because Piano Street automatically turns 8 ) without spaces into an emoji.

So it does...

[cuberdrift]

Pretty sure this has been thoroughly covered by caleb hu's 100 hardest piano pieces video.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Pretty sure this has been thoroughly covered by caleb hu's 100 hardest piano pieces video.

Looked at his list and my god, it's subjective. No galops, Schumann Toccata, Mazeppa, and Feux Follets aren't mentioned, La Campanella is shown as being ~30 spots below Chopin's waterfall etude, the Rach preludes are completely out of their depth, I don't see ANY Sorabji, Petrushka is notably absent, he put the 2 of the Rach etudes in the top 50 iirc, the list goes on.
TBH I doubt this guy has played many of these pieces. He certainly hasn't done an exhaustive search, and that is a VERY subjective list.
One last thing, this tournament that I'm doing is a tournament bracket, not a list. It's also decided by popular vote, instead of just a single person deciding things.

[lelle]

La Campanella is shown as being ~30 spots below Chopin's waterfall etude

Haha yeah no, it's not. I can get around the Waterfall Etude but have a long way to go before I can do La Campanella.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Haha yeah no, it's not. I can get around the Waterfall Etude but have a long way to go before I can do La Campanella.

I was referring to the list that "caleb hu" made.

[lelle]

I was referring to the list that "caleb hu" made.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you that that list is way off, sorry I wasn't clear!

[cuberdrift]

Looked at his list and my god, it's subjective.

Well it is obviously subjective. Any piece's difficulty is going to be subjective to the player's skill set. Your tournament is subjective - it is decided by vote.

No galops, Schumann Toccata, Mazeppa, and Feux Follets aren't mentioned, La Campanella is shown as being ~30 spots below Chopin's waterfall etude, the Rach preludes are completely out of their depth, I don't see ANY Sorabji, Petrushka is notably absent, he put the 2 of the Rach etudes in the top 50 iirc, the list goes on.

Are we looking at the same video?

Liszt's Galop was listed as an honourable mention. Schumann's Toccata is at #58, Mazeppa and Feux Follets #28. For Sorabji - the video title reads "hardest piano works up to 1920" so obviously a lot of 20th century music will be left out.

TBH I doubt this guy has played many of these pieces. He certainly hasn't done an exhaustive search, and that is a VERY subjective list.

Well of course it's subjective. Have you played any of the pieces you include in this contest? Are the voters even familiar with - let alone able to play - all of the works you're including?

One last thing, this tournament that I'm doing is a tournament bracket, not a list. It's also decided by popular vote, instead of just a single person deciding things.

Understood. I simply disagree with a quick dismissal of the aforementioned video especially without even carefully reading its contents.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Are we looking at the same video?

Liszt's Galop was listed as an honourable mention. Schumann's Toccata is at #58, Mazeppa and Feux Follets #28. For Sorabji - the video title reads "hardest piano works up to 1920" so obviously a lot of 20th century music will be left out.

There are 2 galops by Liszt and saying either of them is easier than La Campanella is bull****.
I clearly stated that I may have remembered wrong on the Schumann. Most of Sorabji's works that I'm familiar with were written before 1920. Mazeppa and Feux Follets are not at 28, those are the old versions.

Well of course it's subjective. Have you played any of the pieces you include in this contest? Are the voters even familiar with - let alone able to play - all of the works you're including?

FYI I have tried some of these. Obviously most people aren't able to play some of the pieces I included, but I specifically chose common repertoire to make sure that most people who vote know what the pieces are. For those who haven't heard x piece before, I attached a link to a performance of the piece in each round.

[iamdopeuarenope]

In case you're wondering what the 32 pieces I have in my head right now are:
Scarlatti - K. 141
Liszt - La Campanella
Chopin - Etude 25/11
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 1
Liszt - Friska (Hungarian Rhapsody #2 mvt. 2)
Mussorgsky - Baba Yaga (from Pictures at an Exhibition)
Chopin - Heroic Polonaise
Liszt - Mazeppa
Balakirev - Islamey
Chopin - Etude 10/1
Debussy - Reflets dans l'eau
Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsody #6
Chopin - 25/6
Rachmaninoff - Moment Musicaux #4
Ravel - Le Gibet
Chopin - Etude 10/8
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 3
Ravel - Ondine
Liszt - Wilde Jagd
Chopin - Etude 10/2
Mussorgsky - Bogatyr Gates (also from Pictures at an Exhibition)
Liszt - Un Sospiro
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 2
Chopin - Ballade #4
Liszt - Grand Galop Chromatique
Rachmaninoff - Etude Tableau 29/6
Chopin - Etude 10/4
Liszt - Feux Follets
Ravel - Scarbo
Chopin - Ballade #1
Liszt - Hamelin Cadenza (HR #2 mvt. 3)
Once again, feel free to suggest any replacements.

 Wouldn't Liszt-Paganini 6 be harder than La Campanella?
Also Chopin Ballade 2 should be here if 1 and 4 are, maybe 3 as well

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Wouldn't Liszt-Paganini 6 be harder than La Campanella?
Also Chopin Ballade 2 should be here if 1 and 4 are, maybe 3 as well

3 things.
1: I already started the tournament.
2: 6 is NOT harder than 3, I have absolutely no idea where you got that from. Especially true of the version I'm using.
3: I didn't include ballades 2 and 3 for 2 reasons: they're both much easier than 1 and 4, and I didn't want too many Chopins.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Updated list of the songs still to be decided on (round 1). Strikethrough is eliminated, bold is advanced, underlined is in a match.
Liszt/Busoni - La Campanella
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 1
Balakirev - Islamey
Debussy - Reflets dans l'eau
Chopin - 25/6
Rachmaninoff - Moment Musicaux #4
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 3
Chopin - Etude 10/8
Ravel - Ondine
Chopin - Etude 10/2
Liszt - Un Sospiro
Stravinsky - Petrushka mvt. 2
Chopin - Ballade #4
Chopin - Etude 10/4
Liszt - Feux Follets
Ravel - Scarbo

Also, once we get down to 16, does anyone think a traditional bracket challenge would be neat?

[liszt-and-the-galops]

New links:
Match 9: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70787.0

Match 10: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70788.0

Match 11: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70793.0

Match 12: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70794.0

[gasplamey]

Also, once we get down to 16, does anyone think a traditional bracket challenge would be neat?

I like that idea. Also, I FINALLY FIGURED OUT HOW TO USE QUOTES. YAY FOR ME!!!

[danesi]

Wouldn't Liszt-Paganini 6 be harder than La Campanella?

I log onto this alt account for the first time in months (forgot my main account information LOL) and all hell has broken loose. Yea, Liszt-Paganini 6 is tremendously harder than La Campanella. There's nothing that difficult about Liszt-Pag 3 at all that can't be mastered by a bit of hard work. The coda variation of Liszt-Pag 6 is just... a nightmare. 

[gasplamey]

That's a joke... right?
I've finished no. 6 (I don't like how it sounds though). I can't even get halfway through no. 3.
Yes, 6 is hard. But 3 is harder by a LANDSLIDE. I support Liszt's decision to include 3 over 6.

[iamdopeuarenope]

That's a joke... right?
I've finished no. 6 (I don't like how it sounds though). I can't even get halfway through no. 3.
Yes, 6 is hard. But 3 is harder by a LANDSLIDE. I support Liszt's decision to include 3 over 6.

well i think difficulty of etudes in general depends on the person
For #3 its hard because of jumps and repeated notes but thats way easier to master (imo) as compared to the technique needed for #6

[iamdopeuarenope]

3 things.
1: I already started the tournament.
2: 6 is NOT harder than 3, I have absolutely no idea where you got that from.
3: I didn't include ballades 2 and 3 for 2 reasons: they're both much easier than 1 and 4, and I didn't want too many Chopins.

2 is way harder than 1, not sure why you think one is harder
3 fair enough its easier

[transitional]

3: I didn't include ballades 2 and 3 for 2 reasons: they're both much easier than 1 and 4, and I didn't want too many Chopins.

2 is way harder than 1, not sure why you think one is harder
3 fair enough its easier

It's all subjective, that's all I can say. Liszt-and-the-galops thinks 1 is easier, iamdopeuarenope thinks 2 is easier, but in the end, they both have their own reasons.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

It's all subjective, that's all I can say. Liszt-and-the-galops thinks 1 is easier, iamdopeuarenope thinks 2 is easier, but in the end, they both have their own reasons.

I think you've flipped it, but yeah.

[elijahnelson]

The bracket is complete!
It was entirely randomly generated, so I legitimately don't know how we got matches 9 and 10. As far as I'm aware, that's the group of death lol.
Sorry for the bad quality, I can't figure out how to turn it into an image I can put on here.

Very objective, I like your idea.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Very objective, I like your idea.

Fair point

1. Welcome to the forums!
2. Why did you two necropost on an event that's been over for *counts days* 22 days?
And why match 14???