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Topic: Melodic scales confusion  (Read 2693 times)

Offline geopianoincanada

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Melodic scales confusion
on: April 21, 2024, 04:09:18 PM
I’ve asked my teacher to help guide me towards learning how to compose melodies.

To that end presently I’m trying to understand how to correctly write and comprehend melodic minor scales as they relate to melodic majors. There’s a bit of juggling to do there with getting the key signature right.

And it’s proving to be such an awful confusion.

When I work it out and write out what I think is the right answer in my exercise book to these questions I go try to play it. That’s when I want to set my piano on fire.

Are there any on line study materials to help me because I’m not getting it.
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Offline lelle

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #1 on: April 21, 2024, 05:44:45 PM
Can you clarify what you mean by melodic minor and melodic major? Are you having troubled figuring out how to know which key signature each major and minor key has?

Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #2 on: April 21, 2024, 06:04:42 PM
Melodic major and melodic minor scales. Having to work out the key signatures for a melodic minor scale based on a given melodic major scale.

I try to work it out as my lesson book and my teacher have illustrated but about 50% of the time I get things all mixed up and messed up. This is where I need more study and understanding.

I thought it was as simple and moving up or down 3 semitones depending on what you’re looking for then using that as the key signature.

I’m learning there is much more to it however and this is throwing my understanding off when it comes to writing the key signature correctly.

Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #3 on: April 21, 2024, 06:16:01 PM
I’m trying to figure out how to post a photo of the book lesson in question as it relates to my piano studies but I don’t see how to attach a jpeg here.

Offline brogers70

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #4 on: April 21, 2024, 07:06:30 PM
The natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales all have the same key signature. The necessary modifications are shown as accidentals, not in the key signature.

For example, all the a minor scales have a key signature with no sharps or flats. For harmonic minor you change the g to g#. For melodic minor you change the f to f# and the g to g# for the ascending scale, and then they go back to f natural and g natural for the descending scale.

Similar things happen for all the other minor keys. C minor, for example, has a key signature with 3 flats. To make the harmonic minor you use accidentals to change the Bbs to B naturals, etc.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #5 on: April 21, 2024, 07:18:17 PM
"When I work it out and write out what I think is the right answer in my exercise book to these questions I go try to play it. That’s when I want to set my piano on fire."

Do you mean that it doesn't sound - when you play it on the piano - as you imagined?

If that is true, you should write the melody while sitting at the piano. It only needs to be a bar or 2 to get started. Find some notes that sound pleasing to you as a melody, and let it grow from there. (You've probably heard thousands of melodies, so you get the idea of a pleasing melody.)
Worry about the key signature later, and whatever rules the work book you're using suggests. Otherwise you may feel very disconnected (sonically) from what you are writing.

If this is your first attempt, I would start with just the plain major scale.
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Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #6 on: April 21, 2024, 08:44:37 PM
The scale writing exercises are meant to lead me up to increasing my knowledge to be better able to compose my own melodies. I haven’t begun such composition work as I want to gain more knowledge and have a better theoretical footing for such things when I do begin an effort.

When I bring my written “homework” so to speak, having followed the lessons in “Elementary Rudiments of music” by Barbara Wharram, having tried to write a specific melodic minor scale as the exercise required from something else, for example the quiz:

“Write the melodic minor scale whose relative major is Db”

….or some other quiz, this is where I fall on my face because half of the time I just don’t seem to get it right.

I can move whatever number of semitones up or down as required but sometimes I am supposed to add more things to the key signature or write certain accidentals, and I fail in my understanding as to what needs to be added (or not added).

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #7 on: April 21, 2024, 09:27:34 PM
This,then, is just about memorizing a formula. (Im not certain that memorizing the application of melodic minor scales has much help in composing melodies, which is what you seem to be interested in.)
At any rate, the relative melodic minor to Db major - would be the Bb melodic minor scale. This scale uses the same notes as the Db major scale except that the 6th and 7th tones of the scale would be raised by a half step. Which would mean that Gb would be raised to G natural, and the Ab raised to A natural, thus altering the scale appropriately. The formula would be the same as you figure each melodic minor scale.
Do you already know how to Play ON The Piano - All of the major scales? If not, you should start there first. Then translate each major scale to its relative melodic minor, and play it on the piano.  It's an exercise about applying  a formula. It won't teach you how to write melodies .
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Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #8 on: April 21, 2024, 10:59:40 PM
Yes I know how to play all of the major and most of the harmonic minor scales once I’m in front of the piano without having to read anything. Melodic minor scales do throw me for a loop because of the subtle differences.

Playing by ear is something my teacher says I’m very good at (her exact words “you have POWERFUL ears” with emphasis on the capitalization).

Of course having good ears isn’t helpful for reading and writing music with paper and pencil.

As far as just trying to play a few notes and call it a composition I always feel my efforts are rubbish. Take some movie music for example. Some of the most amazing melodies I’ve ever heard are from movies.

Such creative genius, to be able out of thin air create such beautiful melodies, this is something I wish to learn how to accomplish. When I try though I’m either drawing a total blank, or playing pure garbage or playing something so dumb.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #9 on: April 21, 2024, 11:08:51 PM
Ok, then concerning pencil and paper, I assume that you already understand that the melodic minor Key Signature is the Same as the relative major. So, the Db scale has 5 flats in the key signature. So does Bb melodic minor. Then when, when starting the Bb melodic minor scale, all you do is raise the 6th and 7th tone by a half-step, which means, in terms of writing the scale on paper, writing the 5 flats indicated for the key signature, and then writing in a natural sign on the G (the 6th tone of the scale) and another natural sign on the A (the 7th one).
Surely, if you understand this, it shouldn't be difficult.
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Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #10 on: April 21, 2024, 11:28:19 PM
writing a melody that feels convincing can be a tricky thing. One shouldn't judge too harshly one's initial efforts. There are different ideas I could mention, but there are many ways into that world, and different ways work for different people. So you mention that about having powerful ears . That's a good thing as it relates to composing. You might think of a mood, sit with it, and see if you imagine a melodic line , or  a fragment of a line. It might not come right away. You must sit with it. Lightly experimenting  with your voice to mimic what your inner ear is telling you can get the ball rolling. This is just one approach to opening a door. There are many others. I could go on, but this can be involved, and you may need a teacher who really knows how to navigate this in a meaningful way - so that you become energized and wonderfully enmeshed in that exploration of composition.
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Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #11 on: April 22, 2024, 02:15:36 AM
Ok, then concerning pencil and paper, I assume that you already understand that the melodic minor Key Signature is the Same as the relative major. So, the Db scale has 5 flats in the key signature. So does Bb melodic minor. Then when, when starting the Bb melodic minor scale, all you do is raise the 6th and 7th tone by a half-step, which means, in terms of writing the scale on paper, writing the 5 flats indicated for the key signature, and then writing in a natural sign on the G (the 6th tone of the scale) and another natural sign on the A (the 7th one).
Surely, if you understand this, it shouldn't be difficult.

Admittedly this is proving to be a little challenging. For over 30 years just as a bassist I knew minor keys as only having a shifted third and even this is only in the majority of country and pop songs one might play in a variety of bars. That is the musical environment I'm working to improve from.

Now at this late time in life learning of Harmonic, Natural and Melodic minors has proven to be a head spinner especially in the documenting/writing part.

Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #12 on: April 22, 2024, 02:17:19 AM
writing a melody that feels convincing can be a tricky thing. One shouldn't judge too harshly one's initial efforts. There are different ideas I could mention, but there are many ways into that world, and different ways work for different people. So you mention that about having powerful ears . That's a good thing as it relates to composing. You might think of a mood, sit with it, and see if you imagine a melodic line , or  a fragment of a line. It might not come right away. You must sit with it. Lightly experimenting  with your voice to mimic what your inner ear is telling you can get the ball rolling. This is just one approach to opening a door. There are many others. I could go on, but this can be involved, and you may need a teacher who really knows how to navigate this in a meaningful way - so that you become energized and wonderfully enmeshed in that exploration of composition.

Yes, you understand. It is extremely difficult. I might think of something, play and listen for a minute then a thousand other sound clips flow through my memory and I typically dismiss my puny effort.

Offline brogers70

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #13 on: April 22, 2024, 10:27:43 AM
Ok, then concerning pencil and paper, I assume that you already understand that the melodic minor Key Signature is the Same as the relative major. So, the Db scale has 5 flats in the key signature. So does Bb melodic minor. Then when, when starting the Bb melodic minor scale, all you do is raise the 6th and 7th tone by a half-step, which means, in terms of writing the scale on paper, writing the 5 flats indicated for the key signature, and then writing in a natural sign on the G (the 6th tone of the scale) and another natural sign on the A (the 7th one).
Surely, if you understand this, it shouldn't be difficult.

The only thing I'd add to be clear is that in the melodic minor you raise the 6th and 7th degrees of the natural minor only when the scale is ascending. When the scale is descending the 6th and 7th degrees go back to what they are in the natural minor. So in A melodic minor

Going up... A B C D E F# G# A
Going down... A G natural F natural E D C B A

And the ascending F# and G# are not indicated in the key signature, only as accidentals.

Or in the example of Bb melodic minor (relative minor of Db major) where the key signature shows Bb,Eb,Ab,Db, and Gb

Going up.... Bb C Db Eb F G natural A natural Bb
Going down... Bb Ab Gb F Eb Db C Bb

Note that this mostly comes up when discussing scales in isolation. In an actual piece in the minor mode the composer may vary between natural, harmonic, and melodic minor at will - that's one reason the raised 6th and 7th degrees are not shown in the key signature but just indicated as accidentals wherever they occur in the score.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #14 on: April 22, 2024, 03:41:44 PM
"The only thing I'd add to be clear is that in the melodic minor you raise the 6th and 7th degrees of the natural minor only when the scale is ascending. When the scale is descending the 6th and 7th degrees go back to what they are in the natural minor."

Yes! (I forgot to add the other half of the equation!)  Thanks for the clarification, Brogers.
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Offline jamienc

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #15 on: April 23, 2024, 09:20:21 AM
Perhaps the topic here can be clarified by providing the practical rationale for having different minor scales in the first place instead of simply applying a formula to get the proper notes.

The first concept to grasp is that there are two “classes” of minor scales: Parallel and Relative. The parallel is the method by which the tonic note remains the same and notes within the major scale are altered to become whatever minor scale is desired. In other words, the key center is fixed and the key signature changes. In the Relative variety, the opposite occurs. Here, the key signature remains the same, but the key center changes.

The easiest thing to begin with is C major since it (and the relative minor) are all white notes. The relative minor is simply a “mode” within each key signature that has all of the same notes as the major key, just with a different starting point. In the case of this key, the relative minor occurs on ‘A’ or the sixth of the major scale. Keep the same notes as C major, but play from A to A using that key. This scale occurs “naturally” within the key of C major, hence being dubbed the “natural minor.” If you compare the A minor scale with its Parallel major, you’ll notice that the 3rd, 6th, and 7th have been lowered by one half-step each. You can do the same with C major. It’s Parallel would lower the same scale degrees to become Eb, Ab, and Bb.

Now, the natural scale has its uses with regards to both melody and harmony, but over the course of several hundred years as music transitioned from the Middle Ages to the Baroque, composers realized that certain alterations to minor keys “sounded” better under specific circumstances, which is why there are several types within each class of minor mode. Natural has already been discussed above.

The Melodic variety of minor exists because within the modern tonal system (ca. Renaissance onwards) composers realized that when a melody within a minor key ascends, it sounds more complete if the top half of the minor scale RAISES the 6th and 7th as it approaches the tonic note. For example, in the key of A minor, an ascending melody through the top of the scale would sound more “finalized” or “complete” if F and G were raised back to F# and G# as if it were in the major mode. It very much strengthens the return to A as the key center due to that half-step between the G# and the A. If the melody is descending within a minor key, composers noticed that the same effect occurs as the melody approaches the other most important note within a key in common practice tonality, which is the Dominant, or 5th scale degree of the key. In our key of A minor, descending through G and F to the E (the dominant of A) strengthens the tonal approach to the dominant note with the same order of whole- and half-steps. Notice that in the ascending version of the scale, the trajectory of the notes creates a whole-whole-half order of steps (E, F#, G#, A). The same occurs in the descending trajectory. A, G, F, E is once again whole-whole-half, making the final half step to the dominant E sound more “complete.”

The Harmonic minor scale is useful in that it has practical effects regarding the “harmonies” that occur within a minor scale. In the Natural minor, notice that all of the primary chords (I, IV, and V) that are often used to establish a key are now MINOR as opposed to all being MAJOR when the key is itself major. The harmonic minor scale keeps the 7th scale degree raised, and is done so for one purpose only: that is to keep the V chord MAJOR, thus preserving that important half-step between the 7th and tonic. Preserving the other notes of the minor scale would render the I and the IV as still minor in chord quality, which would help retain the overall minor sound within the key. Composers realized that a minor V chord just sounded incomplete when used in a cadence to the tonic, so simply raising that 7th scale degree when required solved the tonal problem.

My suggestion for developing a full understanding of all this is to play tetrachord scales in a few keys and drill the process by which you would achieve all the different types of minor scale within a particular key. The tetrachord scale is done with two hands and not using the thumbs. In the key of C major, LH 5-4-3-2 are on C-D-E-F, and RH 2-3-4-5 will be placed on G-A-B-C. Play the major scale upwards and then back down, from there:

1. Move your hand position to the 6th scale degree, in this case A to A but retaining the C major key signature (all white notes).
2. Play the natural minor scale up then down.
3. Play the ascending melodic minor scale by raising the 6th and 7th (F# and G#).
4. Play the descending melodic minor scale by reverting back to F and G.
5. Play the ascending harmonic minor scale by raising only the 7th to G#. After this, play the scale with the RH and then play the primary chords to hear the effect. A-B-C will get the a-minor (i) chord, D-E-F will get d-minor (iv), and G# will get E major (V), then cadence on a-minor upon reaching the top A.
6. Go back to C major and do the same steps with the Parallel (by lowering the 3rd, 6th, and 7th scale degrees).
7. Apply these steps to all other keys.

To ensure you are correct, have a circle of fifths chart handy that has both major and minor keys represented so you can begin to internalize all of the “relative” relationships between the keys. Remember to shift your hand position to the 6th scale degree within the key you are working on while retaining the same notes as the major. Once you master all of these, you can move on to all the different “modes” within a major key by exploring all of the different starting points on the individual scale degrees. For example, D to D, E to E, etc using the key of C major. You’ll begin to see that the characteristics of each mode is determined by where in the scale the half-steps reside.

Hope this helps!

Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: Melodic scales confusion
Reply #16 on: April 23, 2024, 01:44:15 PM
jamienc - a treasure chest of information, thank you! Your reply left my head spinning, I'll have to slowly absorb it's content over the next few weeks and try to apply what is written.

The circle of fifths is something I've heard of. I've seen references to it, I've even seen the actual graphic of it but I never understood it's purpose having come from a bar-band bassist world.
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