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Topic: How do I figure out the answer to this question?  (Read 1299 times)

Offline geopianoincanada

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How do I figure out the answer to this question?
on: June 07, 2024, 06:11:38 PM
As part of my music studies I have to write the ascending and descending scale in bass clef for the harmonic minor scale whose subdominant is Eb.

How do I figure this out correctly? In my mind I keep thinking of Bb major but I know this isn’t the correct answer.
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Offline frodo4

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #1 on: June 07, 2024, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 07, 2024, 06:11:38 PM
As part of my music studies I have to write the ascending and descending scale in bass clef for the harmonic minor scale whose subdominant is Eb.

How do I figure this out correctly? In my mind I keep thinking of Bb major but I know this isn’t the correct answer.

You are on the right track and I can see how this might be confusing.   :)

"Subdominant is Eb" implies the tonic note is Bb.  Remember, the keys of Bb major and Bb minor both have Eb as the subdominant note.. 

They are first looking for you to identify the minor key whose subdominant note is Eb.  This would be Bb minor.  For your answer, you should write the harmonic minor scale in Bb minor according to their instructions.

As a side note that may help later when you learn about chords: There is a subdominant note and a subdominant chord.  They are referring to the subdominant note here since they did not say subdominant chord and "Eb" is not a chord.  It is a note. 

Good luck with your studies!
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Offline pianistavt

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #2 on: June 07, 2024, 08:23:47 PM
Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 07, 2024, 06:11:38 PM
As part of my music studies I have to write the ascending and descending scale in bass clef for the harmonic minor scale whose subdominant is Eb.

How do I figure this out correctly? In my mind I keep thinking of Bb major but I know this isn’t the correct answer.

You need to know what the subdominant is - - is that the primary mystery here?. 
It's always the 4th note of the scale.
For C major and minor it's F.
For B major and minor it's E
For Bb major and minor it's Eb
The tonic is 2.5 steps down from the subdominant (based on whole steps and half steps), or a perfect 4th.
Once you have the tonic note, you build your minor scale...

Another question may be what is harmonic minor scale.

Really, google can help with all of this ... but since I'm writing ... the 7th note of the scale is raised a half step in harmonic minor.  In melodic minor it is not raised.

This is a test question?  Hopefully you have a theory book ...
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Offline frodo4

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #3 on: June 07, 2024, 09:02:28 PM
Quote from: pianistavt on June 07, 2024, 08:23:47 PM
You need to know what the subdominant is - - is that the primary mystery here?. 

The OP correctly identified the tonic as "Bb" and so the OP appears to understand what subdominant is.  But the OP seemed to not understand that 2 keys have Bb as the tonic note - Bb major AND Bb minor. The OP only mentioned Bb major.  Hopefully the OP will help us understand what the confusion is.
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Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #4 on: June 08, 2024, 12:42:27 AM
Thank you pianistavt, your explanation helped.

I figured that Bb might play an important role in the answer and I’m glad I was able to work it out that far.

But I lack enough experience in my studies for managing semitone key signatures which are harmonic or melodic minor and trying to work it all out in my old head. It’s harder to learn when one ages.
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Offline frodo4

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #5 on: June 08, 2024, 12:50:31 AM
Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 08, 2024, 12:42:27 AM
Thank you pianistavt, your explanation helped.

I figured that Bb might play an important role in the answer and I’m glad I was able to work it out that far.

But I lack enough experience in my studies for managing semitone key signatures which are harmonic or melodic minor and trying to work it all out in my old head. It’s harder to learn when one ages.

Glad someone was able to help, even though it was not me.

Quote from: pianistavt on June 07, 2024, 08:23:47 PM
Really, google can help with all of this ... but since I'm writing ... the 7th note of the scale is raised a half step in harmonic minor.  In melodic minor it is not raised.

One word of caution though: pianistavt says   "the 7th note of the scale is raised a half step in harmonic minor.  In melodic minor it is not raised."

Correct is: Melodic minor scale does have the 7th raised in the ascending scale.  But the descending melodic minor scale does not. 

EDIT: For completeness, I add:  The melodic minor scale has the 6th and the 7th raised a semitone in the ascending scale and the 6th and 7th is not raised in the descending melodic minor scale.  The harmonic minor scale is the same in both ascending and descending scales.  Here the 6th is not raised and the 7th is raised a semitone.

So be careful and again, good luck.
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Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #6 on: June 08, 2024, 02:30:37 AM
frodo4 - I tried Google but really it's such a minefield these days with too many ads and many postings offering me the key of Eb with no mention of a subdominant. That's why I figured to ask here.
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Offline frodo4

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #7 on: June 08, 2024, 02:38:03 AM
Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 08, 2024, 02:30:37 AM
frodo4 - I tried Google but really it's such a minefield these days with too many ads and many postings offering me the key of Eb with no mention of a subdominant. That's why I figured to ask here.

Great that you asked here, but pianistavt is the one that recommended google.
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Offline pianocavs

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #8 on: June 17, 2024, 08:49:20 AM
Hello.
I may suggest reading the book that can be downloaded at the following website:
      https://piano-maps.com/libro-book-download
On pages 80 to 84 it easily shows the structure of the minor tones (natural, harmonic and melodic) in C.
This structure can be transposed to the other tones.
This information is complemented by pages 116 to 148, 158 to 183, and other pages of the same book.
I hope this can be useful.
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Offline lettersquash

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #9 on: June 17, 2024, 06:30:07 PM
Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 08, 2024, 02:30:37 AM
frodo4 - I tried Google but really it's such a minefield these days with too many ads and many postings offering me the key of Eb with no mention of a subdominant. That's why I figured to ask here.
You - and everyone! - should install ad-blocking software, like UBlock Origin or Adblocker Ultimate (addons for your browser). Also, another search engine, like DuckDuckGo, would protect you from harvesting of your data and following you around the web. I don't know how people cope without ad blockers. I use YouTube a lot, and almost never see anything except the content. The same virtually everywhere I go on the Internet. However, I'm glad you asked here, because the answer was a good reminder for me.
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Offline geopianoincanada

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Re: How do I figure out the answer to this question?
Reply #10 on: June 17, 2024, 10:51:59 PM
lettersquash - absolutely. Unprotected browsing these days is such a minefield. I have these ad blocking things installed. I don't do Facebook for spam reasons.

I just figured I'd get a better quality answer here than elsewhere. And this way the discussion is saved so if any other present or future piano students run into a similar situation then an answer is saved here for anyone to view.
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