Rach 2: Problems I'm having...

[pianopoet]

I have recently started my university education at a renowned SA college of music and was assigned Rach2. I am apparently meant to have all 3 movements at a performing level by the end of the year. Now, Im having some problems...
1: Memorising the opening arpeggios
2: The passage following the arpeggios - smooth and articulated
3: Melody with triplet RH accompaniment and arpeggio LH.
And, the list goes on... I know that I am an able pianist but this piece is getting me down. I feel that the only proper practising takes place once a passage is memorised. Could someone tell me if I am approaching this piece in the wrong manner..? Help is appreciated 

[shasta]

Pianopoet, what other pieces have you mastered/performed?  The reason I ask this is because the questions you are asking for help with (i.e. how to memorize the opening arpeggios) seem unusual coming from someone at a college of music and assigned the Rach2. 

You acknowledge that you are having problems with this piece, so I think you have already answered your own question on whether you are approaching it correctly or not.   

Perhaps instead of memorizing measure-by-measure or phrase-by-phrase, sightread it a little bit just for the shear pleasure and beauty of it to avoid developing a mental block that it is a "problematic" piece.  Perhaps then sightread HS up until the first piano solo just to get an idea of how it feels under your hands and where fingerings need to be addressed/changed.  Change things up a bit.

You should bring your concerns to your professor's attention.  He/she has probably played the Rach2 before and may offer their own personal insights that would help you.

Good luck!

[Pianostudy]

I have recently started my university education at a renowned SA college of music and was assigned Rach2. I am apparently meant to have all 3 movements at a performing level by the end of the year. Now, Im having some problems...
1: Memorising the opening arpeggios
2: The passage following the arpeggios - smooth and articulated
3: Melody with triplet RH accompaniment and arpeggio LH.
And, the list goes on... I know that I am an able pianist but this piece is getting me down. I feel that the only proper practising takes place once a passage is memorised. Could someone tell me if I am approaching this piece in the wrong manner..? Help is appreciated 

When does your year end?  If it ends when most do--around middle of May--I would say that is very ambitious, and maybe even undoable.  Those are my thoughts anyway.  But yeah, what pieces have you mastered in the past?

[iumonito]

Oh, how I hated working under artificial pressure.  I hope that it is clear to you that it really doesn't matter when you learn this beautiful piece of music.  THe hearing will come and go and you may even have a date to play it, the truth of the matter will still remain: your performance will get better with time and experience, very much at its own tempo.

I found it very distracting and very destructive to have to work on short deadlines like the one you are describing.  Imagine telling Dinu Lipatti (who was famous for taking his sweet time before playing anything in public) that he had to play something in two months or in 12 for that matter.  Absurd.

If your teacher is into this "churning" pace, I would seriously consider looking for someone else with a healthier attitude towards the learning process.

Regarding the piece, I would suggest working in sections, with less attention at this point to details of interpretation and more to the general strokes of the piece's structure.  Memorize mostly by playing phrases and sections several times and above all, don't hurry the process.  You don't want to learn a bad emotinal state to go along with this gorgeous work.

[steinwayguy]

When does your year end? If it ends when most do--around middle of May--I would say that is very ambitious, and maybe even undoable. Those are my thoughts anyway. But yeah, what pieces have you mastered in the past?

He has three months...

[e60m5]

Wow hmmm...

Well, Good Luck!

Especially once you get to the third movement.

[shasta]

He has three months...

Oh wow, I just assumed Pianopoet meant the end of the calendar year... 

Pianopoet, if this is true, then maybe you can just focus on mastering a single movement of the Rach2 by June...

[richard w]

Well, I'm going to post an encouraging response. Of course I don't know anything of the standard that Pianopoet is at, but making some assumptions from what I already know, especially that Pianopoet's teacher has seen fit to assign him this work, I think that 3 months is more than enough time to get a performance together. That said, it is going to require some hard work and a dedicated approach, but you should be putting this in anyway. To give you an idea what can be achieved, I learnt the Grieg concerto in around 6 weeks for a concerto opportunity when I was at University.

But perhaps Pianopoet's troubles stem from a temporary lack of self belief in his own ability. I experienced similar problems in my first year at University with the Revolutionary study. I battled with it for weeks, bringing it back to my lessons, before finally conceding defeat to my teacher. At this point I was told that I couldn't give up, and sure enough I eventually used it to open (or was it close?) my end-of-year recital.

So, to help on the specific points raised:

1: Memorising the opening arpeggios

If you can memorise any of it, I don't really see why you should have extra trouble with this bit. But, look at the structure of the section and analyse the harmonic progressions used. If you also learn from memory the harmonic progressions you will have an extra aid to fall back on. remember, memory is associative, so the more ways you can find to memorise something, the more unlikely you will be to go wrong.

2: The passage following the arpeggios - smooth and articulated

Do you mean the bit where you get the melody for the first time? Again, I don't think there is a special secret, just enjoy it and break it down. Listen to other recordings and get in your mind the effect you want to create, then try to achieve this for yourself. If you struggle, just achieve it with a couple of bars, and when you have shown yourself you can do it, work on the rest of the section.

3: Melody with triplet RH accompaniment and arpeggio LH.

Here, are we taking about the bit which immediately follows that at question 2? If you are struggling here, break down into small sections, hands separately at first to work on the technique. Then, put it together in small sections.


A few extra points... First, your questions are a little vague. This suggests to me that you have not actually worked out exactly what it is that prevents you from making progress. Go back to all the sections you have difficulty with (one by one) and try to put your finger on what you struggle with. By doing this, you'll almost certainly answer most of your questions for yourself, but if you still don't get it you will be in a much better position to ask for useful advice from your teacher or members of this board. And, rather than the piece seeming like one massive and insurmountable mound of problems, it will become lots of easily-solved little problems. Furthermore, finding the solution to one problem will almost certainly solve future problems.

Finally, don't just work through from beginning to end - work on bits from all movements at once. I think this is a far more efficient way to work, because repeating over and again the same section often does not bring the rewards one would like it to. Shorter bursts of practise each day or even two or three times a day are better. Go for the tricky bits and get them sorted first. If you have, for instance, the opening arpeggio of the third movement under your belt now, you will feel a lot happier with it by the time it comes to the performance.

Good luck, and feel free to ask anything further.



Richard.

[pianopoet]

Richard - You are my Hero... I need the concerto ready for an audition by November so thats my goal for this year. Let me just give you some of my history: My piano teacher left my city last year and I was sent to someone who taught me nothing. Now being at Uni, I gotta learn certain techniques I am not familiar with. That is why my lecturer gave me this piece - to teach me. At the moment he is dissecting my technique and kind of beginning frm the beginning.
Eg. I lock up very easily in certain passages. I could get away with it in Chopin Scherzi, Grieg Concerto etc but now its catching up on me and I cant rely on my fingers alone which have been made very strong by finger exercises.
I think this process is breaking my belief in myself as I feel totally new born for lack of a better phrase...
As Arrau said, the moment there is a cut off in the flow, music stops and that is a technique I need to learn through this piece.
What i find particularly sad about some of the people on this post is their need to revert to harsh criticism etc before offering real advice. Sometimes I feel people are losing sight of the fact that music is an art and not a competition. In any case, Im off track now... Thanx again for your help and willingness to help... 

[iumonito]

That is why my lecturer gave me this piece - to teach me. At the moment he is dissecting my technique and kind of beginning frm the beginning.

Hmm.  Best wishes for a healthy year.  Dangerous to overpractice is.  Lots in your mind done can be.

What type of concepts are we talking about?  Sound projection?  Euthonics?  It took me a little by surprise that you  mentioned this piece is being used as a transition vehicle.  Perhaps there is a reason, although for such a period I tend to counsel music from the classical period (no where to hide, everything to nurture).

If I can recommend some reading, try Stanislawski's "An Actor Prepares."  Very healthy.

Needless to say, I am against specifics about what to do at the keyboard in piano practice.  Generally I find them limiting and more often than not misguided.  I am of a more aural school, where your sound image is what guides what happens at the keyboard.  Kind of like when Luke turns the machine off and fires the missile using the force.  Vague, certainly, but liberating.

Good luck.

[steinwayguy]

Yeah, an audition in November is more than enough time. Although, you can't play Rachmaninoff well with your fingers  .

A tip on the arpeggio memorization, someone said earlier to figure out the harmonic progressions. By this I'm sure he/she implied the inversions, but I think it is particularly important in that section to figure out the inversions of the chords, not just "c minor", "g7" etc.

Also, these are some pretty basic problems you're having. The point of playing a piece more difficult than your current "ability level" is to experiment and figure out how you'd be able to play a certain passage. From what I understand, your teacher will also play an important role in this process.

Anyway, good luck!

[richard w]

Richard - You are my Hero...

Me someone's hero? 

What i find particularly sad about some of the people on this post is their need to revert to harsh criticism etc before offering real advice. Sometimes I feel people are losing sight of the fact that music is an art and not a competition. In any case, Im off track now... Thanx again for your help and willingness to help... 

Generally, I'm pretty sure people here are just trying to help. In a spoken conversation it is easy to gauge from the reaction of the listener how they took your comments, and very easy to back pedal if you feel your words were taken the wrong way. Whereas here, much of the meaning which would otherwise be conveyed in the nuances of speech is lost, and contributors are not free to defuse any remarks which turn out to be inappropriate or are taken in a way in which they were not intended. As for the 'harsh' comments above, I'm sure contributors were just anxious that you did not embark on a path that would serve only to deepen your temporary lack of self belief.

Anyway.... November is a much better time scale - you should even manage to learn the dynamics too! 



Richard.