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Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

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Topic: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5? (Read 1296 times)

geopianoincanada

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Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

on: June 14, 2024, 11:23:19 PM

I have to work out the key signature for Ab minor harmonic. I was taught to determine first the major key signature by counting up 3 semitones from the minor to get the major.

In my mind that means the key signature for Ab minor harmonic must be B major which is 5 sharps.

My book however lists a confusing alternative as Cb which is 6 sharps.

I know that technically B = Cb. Please help me understand the difference here, 6 sharps versus 5?

Thank you.

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lelle

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #1 on: June 15, 2024, 12:05:13 AM

Cb major is not six sharps, it is seven flats

A key which has a flat in itis name (Ab, Cb, what have you) will always have flats in its key signature. Same goes for sharp keys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-flat_major

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geopianoincanada

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #2 on: June 15, 2024, 12:48:40 AM

My mistype, you are correct. I meant to type Cb has 6 flats but I got mixed up because I have multiple exercises open and must have glanced incorrectly.

Back to the question though, I still have to work out the correct key signature for Ab harmonic minor and I don’t understand which is the correct answer, B major or Cb major since technically B==Cb

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keypeg

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #3 on: June 15, 2024, 01:59:17 AM

You're in Canada. By any chance, is that RCM theory? My teacher (US btw) goes on a bit of a rant sometimes, on some aspects of formal theory. That theory should be practical and reflect what happens in music. "If it doesn't happen in music, don't bother with it." kind of thing. So to take your question:

The key of Ab minor uses the key signature of Cb major. Cb major is one of the key signatures that has an enharmonic equivalent, namely B major. The relative minor here would be G# minor, which is also the enharmonic equivalent of Ab minor. Question: Will we see pieces written in Ab minor (or in Cb major)? rule of thumb is that composers aim for the greatest simplicity, so all things being equal, composers will chose B major and G# minor, since they're less complicated. However, it can happen that a composer chooses Ab minor (Cb major) because of how the music modulates from place to place, or maybe just because he's a nasty composer who likes complicated things.

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Shorter answer: The key signature for Ab minor would be Cb major and not B major. The key of B major has sharps, and you can't get an Ab out of that. You will get a G# which is the enharmonic equivalent, and that would be your G# minor key. the answer is 7 flats.

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geopianoincanada

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #4 on: June 15, 2024, 02:11:51 AM

keypeg - thank you for your help.

Yes I'm in Canada. My music exercises related to my question are not from an RCM book but my teacher (who is RCM trained) recommended I use this book “Elementary Rudiments of music” by Barbara Wharram. It seems to be a very richly endowed book filled with a great deal of material.

However I am using RCM book for etudes, etc.... of varying grade levels

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keypeg

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #5 on: June 15, 2024, 07:08:02 AM

Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 15, 2024, 02:11:51 AM

keypeg - thank you for your help.

Yes I'm in Canada. My music exercises related to my question are not from an RCM book but my teacher (who is RCM trained) recommended I use this book “Elementary Rudiments of music” by Barbara Wharram. It seems to be a very richly endowed book filled with a great deal of material.

However I am using RCM book for etudes, etc.... of varying grade levels

I have the Wharram book. I did the intermediate and advanced exams (gr. 1 & 2) about 18 years ago, and passed the intermediate with a grade of 99.95% - the advanced with 87% (there was a family emergency that week). I also taught it once. Assuming that the edition has changed too much in 18 years, maybe you can tell me the page or chapter section.

Is your teacher able to help you with this, or do you still get stuck with areas of confusion?

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geopianoincanada

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #6 on: June 15, 2024, 11:47:54 AM

keypeg - it’s page 43 section C which I’m working on, filling out the examples.

The page which shows key signatures and their relative majors and minors is on page 32-33.

My teacher comes to my home once a week every Friday. I hope to have these homeworks done accurately for her next visit. When I get stuck and can’t seem to figure something out I prefer to ask here as Google has become a wasteland.

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keypeg

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #7 on: June 15, 2024, 03:02:52 PM

Ok, yours is a different edition which makes sense since my book is about 20 years old. The closest I have is a different page where the Ab harmonic minor occurs: unfortunately the advanced level that has alto and tenor clef but I've circled it anyway. You'll see that there are 7 flats.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0235hxulx2i3u53wl2mim/24.06.15-theory.jpg?rlkey=b24uc0nbibm0tbjtigleqsmlr&st=3as76mau&dl=0

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My teacher comes to my home once a week every Friday. I hope to have these homeworks done accurately for her next visit. When I get stuck and can’t seem to figure something out I prefer to ask here as Google has become a wasteland.

This is a backward way of working. You should be learning how these things work from her, before doing the exercises. If you get stuck somewhere, then this is her opportunity to teach you what you don't know by looking at where you are stuck. If you try to do perfect homework, then it is more like you are doing a job for an employer. That is not the relationship.

In the way you asked your question initially, it already appears that you have some more basic things mixed up which she should be teaching and helping you with.

Here:

Quote

My book however lists a confusing alternative as Cb which is 6 sharps.

It appears the book has been edited since my version. For example we don't have a section C, but we did have P (preliminary), 1 & 2. In the way the book was organized (and may still be), scales and key signatures are taught only up to 4 sharps and flats, so you don't get the enharmonic equivalents (B and Cb, etc.) The book itself goes on to the next level, but you're supposed to stop there. Then the next time when you do the next level, you start at level 1 instead of P (maybe level B after A?) and then the enharmonic ones are taught (your "confusing array"). This should be taught and learned carefully because it's a new concept.

Would you be able to ask your teacher to go over enharmonics with you?

Alternatively: Did what I wrote before make sense? Do you have questions about what I wrote?

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ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #8 on: June 15, 2024, 03:24:48 PM

One simple way to look at it is that, speaking in the theoretical context, the relative major of a minor key (likewise the relative minor of a major key) always has the same key signature. For example, C maj/A min, no accidentals, G maj/E min, one sharp, etc.

Thus Ab min's relative major is Cb major. The confusion arises here because of the enharmonic possibilities of the key signature, but it should still be clear that the pairing would be G# min/ B maj if the initial key signature is one with sharps.

Admittedly a composer might opt to change a key signature from Ab minor to B major for reasons of reading clarity if the piece went from the minor to the major.

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geopianoincanada

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #9 on: June 16, 2024, 02:21:49 AM

keypeg - well I did have a little difficulty understanding your reply at first. I read "ronde_des_sylphes"'s reply and these combined helped me grasp it. Enharmonics is new to me and I don't see this term mentioned in my study book lessons to date. I'll be sure to bring this up with my teacher.

I don't think we're proceeding backwards at all. My means are limited and I cannot attend a school outside of the home so my teacher comes here to my home. My teacher knows I have some musical knowledge and some comprehension of music theory having played (moonlighting) in rock and country bands for 30 years in the past, always playing by memorization and by ear and never with written music. But the amount of music theory surrounding piano and melody composition is staggering to me.

She can't read into my head and has no way to know where my present state of understanding is lacking and where it is not except when she assigns me these exercises after going through our weekly work sessions and it is these exercises which reveal the gaps in my understanding.

To that end I believe I am making progress. I'm able to approach a limited number of grade 6 and grade 7 pieces without feeling completely overwhelmed. I couldn't say that a year ago. The old addage goes "the more you learn the more you realize you don't know" and this is certainly true with piano so I struggle, work hard when I am able to, I count on my teacher to share her training with me during our weekly sessions in a timely manner when I approach a situation. I mark the issue in my book and she answers my questions with guidance and practical examples.

When my teacher isn't available I also want to be able to research things on my own but not through the cesspool Google has become, overflowing with ads and dubious resources, hence my questions here.

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lelle

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #10 on: June 16, 2024, 07:21:07 PM

Enharmonic things happening in music are, though far from happening in every piece, decently common so it's good to familiarize yourself with them, but it sounds like you are moving in that direction right now

For example, check out the Prelude and Fugue in Eb minor / D# minor from Bach The Well Tempered Clavier book 1. The prelude is written in Eb minor, whereas the fugue is written in D# minor - they're enharmonic equivalents. I have heard the reason is because Bach originally wrote the fugue in D minor and it was easier to just add a bunch of sharps to make it D sharp minor instead of rewriting it all in Eb minor haha.

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geopianoincanada

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #11 on: June 17, 2024, 01:56:12 AM

lelle - sometimes I can't tell which is more difficult, the actual struggle with playing a piece or understanding all of the jargon and stuffing that seems to come with it.

I guess that's what happens when going from more or less self-taught for 30 years jumping into actual structured music lessons.

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keypeg

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Re: Ab minor harmonic scale key signature, 6 vs 5?

Reply #12 on: June 17, 2024, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: geopianoincanada on June 16, 2024, 02:21:49 AM

I don't think we're proceeding backwards at all. My means are limited and I cannot attend a school outside of the home so my teacher comes here to my home.

She can't read into my head and has no way to know where my present state of understanding is lacking ....

This has nothing to do with attending school. The process is backward if you do assignments before understanding the material. That should be taught before the material is done by you. She can know where your knowledge is lacking a) if you tell her what you don't know so she can teach it, b) by checking your prerequisite knowledge. That's part of teaching.

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When my teacher isn't available I also want to be able to research things on my own but not through the cesspool Google has become, overflowing with ads and dubious resources, hence my questions here.

Where we take on the role your teacher should be taking, and is being paid to do. I am a trained teacher. Part of teaching is knowing what the prerequisites are, and making sure your student has them, and if not, give them.

Enharmonics are explained in the Wharram book, unless that has been edited out.

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