Liszt B Minor -- other works to include in same program??

[DavidW]

Hello, I'm new to this board.  It all looks so wonderful, all the positive comments.  I'm working on the Liszt b minor Sonata.  I'm starting to think about choosing other works in preparing a well-rounded program.  I'm open to learning about anything, but don't really want to play another big piece and think that might be inappropriate.  Suggestions??  -- I was thinking about opening with the Mozart D Major Sonata, K 576- the last piano sonata.  What are your thoughts on playing Mozart and Liszt on the same program?  Also thinking of opening instead with some Scarlatti and then maybe some Brahms shorter pieces like op. 119, or 118?  All suggestions and comments would be appreciated.  I'm going to my teacher with suggestions on Saturday.  I've only been working on the Liszt for like 8 months now and need to start working on other things.  I had to focus on the Liszt for a while because it was a totally new piece for me.  Also what about a group of Chopin Etudes?  There are so many possibilities, I just forget any of the "rules" of thought in putting together a program.  Thanks.

[larse]

If you're playing the Liszt Sonata, I would definately play the Liszt Ballad No 2 as well. Liszt and Scriabin works very well together, but I don't think I would put it together with Mozart. Perhaps Beethoven in that case.

Heh...to put up a humorous side of Liszt, you could pick up a hungarian Rhapsody or a mephisto waltz instead of the Liszt Ballad. hmm...I'm just thinking loud. How long is your program supposed to be?

[SteinwayTony]

If you're playing the Liszt Sonata, I would definately play the Liszt Ballad No 2 as well. Liszt and Scriabin works very well together, but I don't think I would put it together with Mozart. Perhaps Beethoven in that case.

Heh...to put up a humorous side of Liszt, you could pick up a hungarian Rhapsody or a mephisto waltz instead of the Liszt Ballad. hmm...I'm just thinking loud. How long is your program supposed to be?

The first Ballade is great too.

[BoliverAllmon]

his dante sonata

[DavidW]

There is no time limit on the program.  I've played the Mephisto Waltz, so that would actually work.  I have to be careful about adding too much out of my current or past repertoire because of my limited practice time.  I've also played some Scriabin, most recently the 5th Sonata -- I could probably pull the 2nd Sonata together for this program, which might be interesting right before an intermission, and it's a little lighter than the 5th -- but then how would I throw in the mephisto waltz?
What about openers for a program like this??  
Such problems  .... Thanks for the comments.  

[steinwayguy]

Brahms 119
Liszt Sonata
Liszt Mephisto Waltz
Mozart 330, 332 or 570
Chopin 3rd Scherzo
Beethoven Op. 2 No. 1 (such a great piece, a great opener!)
Haydn Sonata No. 59 in E flat Major, Hob. XVI/49
If you're doing Haydn, you should open with the Bach e-flat minor prelude and fugue from book 1, me thinks
Scriabin Sonata-Fantasy


Overall I'd liked to hear Bach P&F, Haydn, Brahms 119, Chopin Scherzo and the Liszt sonata

[DavidW]

Oh, my gosh, Steinway Guy -- that sounds so perfect.  I love all this repertoire.  Thanks

[DavidW]

I just looked through the scores briefly.  The only issue with that -- well, the first issue is although I would enjoy playing the Haydn, it seems sort of -- well, it's huge.  Any alternatives to that near perfect program, maybe a Haydn that is not so long -- I'll look through my scores also.  The Chopin is a keeper as is the Bach and the Brahms.

[anda]

you want to start with mozart 576 (in the 1st part) and i assume liszt h moll sonata will cover the 2nd part (you don't want to add anything else along for the 2nd part, right)?

so, if this is correct (if i understood correctly), you need 1 or max 2 works in the 1st part after mozart. i'd go for beethoven (preferably not a sonata - maybe variations) or schubert (again, i wouldn't choose a sonata, i'd choose an improptus opus)

just a thought.

best luck

[e60m5]

I think some contrast would be nice. It is hard to imagine ending the first half of the recital with the b minor - how can you continue afterwards?? - so that pretty much means that the second half of the program must be the b minor. And that also means no encores - how can you encore after that? I know I couldn't.

As for the first half, I would personally include some works that don't pale in comparison to the Liszt, yet contrast with it greatly. You also would want something to warm the audience up, and not jump straight into the big stuff. This is what I'd do - (might be a little short, though):

Schubert - 4 Impromptus D.899
Schubert - Fantasie in C D.760 "Wandererfantasie"

---

Liszt - Sonata in b S.178

[rodrk352]

The first time I heard the Liszt B Minor was in the recital hall, played by a young professional (female) pianist from Israel. I was caught hook, line, and sinker. Don't remember her name, but the music was a revelation. It sent shock waves through me and I thought I understood exactly what Liszt was trying to say. It is the most romantic piece in the piano repertoire. Do you identify with Shakespeare's "Hamlet," Or "Romeo and Juliet? If the answer is "no," then you're not a romantic and should avoid Liszt. People throw out the name "Liszt," on these boards all the time. I think it's a form of name-dropping, an attempt to look cool by pretending to be familiar with a composer who has turned into the myth of the super-human pianist. About 30 years ago most of his music was not heard at all: too demanding. Rubenstein was too modest to play it. Horowitz was more interested in Scarlatti than Liszt.
    You couldn't find a copy of Liszt's Transcendental Etudes until the late Russian Lazar Berman made a recording of it in 1976. It was like Liszt wrote a treasure chest-full of music but no one was supposed to have the key to open the lock.
    Of course you have to end the program with the Liszt. And no encores.
 
   
   

[hodi]

if u go with mozart, go with k310, his best sonata IMO. (some annoying uncomftrable parts to play there.. but much easier than liszt's sonata)

[BoliverAllmon]

I don't see the great thing about the sonata. I have listened to professional pianists play it and still don't really like it. i don't hate it, but I don't like it really.

[Allan]

How about Anton Rubenstein's "Staccato Etude" and something from Debussy?

[DavidW]

Right now I'm leaning towards this:

Beethoven:  Sonata op 2 no. 1
Brahms:  op 119
Chopin:  Scherzo No. 3

intermission

Liszt:  Sonata - b minor

I really like the idea of ending the first half of the program with the Chopin.  The Brahms also is a great set of pieces and three people have recommended including those in the program, including a great teacher that I just played the Liszt for in a master class in Hermosa Beach.

But looking at it right now this second it seems a little -- I don't know -- I hate to use the word Bland -- but it comes to mind.  Because I usually play pieces that are totally schizo -- my last recital opened with Beethoven 111, and then the Gaspard -- and then some Rachmaninoff Etudes Tableaux -- that program itself was totally schizo -- and opening with 111 -- HUGE Mistake!!!!  I just don't want to make that kind of mistake again.

But I liked the idea of starting the program with the first Beethoven Sonata.  It is a great opener. 

The comments are great.

As to the person who doesn't really care for the Liszt sonata that much -- it took me a while to fully comprehend it -- a while as in a decade of my life before I thought that is something I really want to play -- and I'm 41 years old right now.

And - yes, I'm a total romantic.  I completely relate to the Shakespeare tragedies and consumed Hamlet in high school and wrote like a 50- page paper on some thesis that I can't remember right now regarding the persona of Hamlet -- I'm sure it had to do with some sort of inner struggle -- but can't remember the details.

But the Liszt Sonata is really like an exposition of someone's entire life, from birth to death -- someone who is very romantic and lives a very turbulent life at times.  It's about so much -- I just love it.

[rodrk352]

One problem: the Brahms ends on a note of defiance after a lot of soul-searching during the first 3 pieces in opus 119. That was Brahm's last statement in a way, since they were his last pieces for solo piano. Nice time for a break to let the audience think over the disparate elements, time to let the music sink into their veins. In your concert you intend to come right back on-stage and put the audience back into limbo with Chopin's scherzo. Maybe you should flip the order of the Chopin and Brahms. Ambitious program, obviously. Tiptop music , very demanding... Personally, when I hear one piece of Chopin, I want to hear more and more.... I'm never satisfied with hearing just one, as they used to say about potato chips.
    P.S. I'm writing this while listening to a recording of Rubinstein playing the Scherzo #4, the slow section, and... <wait> Wow! Just as good as Scherzo #3.

[steinwayguy]

One problem: the Brahms ends on a note of defiance after a lot of soul-searching during the first 3 pieces in opus 119. That was Brahm's last statement in a way, since they were his last pieces for solo piano. Nice time for a break to let the audience think over the disparate elements, time to let the music sink into their veins.

That is my main problem with programming usually- I always have multiple pieces that should either end the recital or close the first half... But rodrk has a point, the E-flat Rhapsody really does have an air of finality (if that's a word) about it that the third scherzo does not. Also, I think Chopin would set up Liszt well, especially such a musical piece that does not steal the show as the third scherzo. I think you should open the recital with something either more classical (Haydn or Mozart) or baroque than Beethoven Op. 2 No. 1.

Thus my feelings are:
Bach- Prelude and Fugue in E-flat Minor, WTC Book 1
Haydn- Sonata No. "62" in E-flat Major, Hob XVI/52
Brahms- Opus 119
-Intermission-
Chopin- Scherzo No. 3
Liszt- Sonata in B Minor

If you were to change something (i.e. if you're more inclined to beethoven than haydn), do the C Major prelude and fugue (yes that's right, C Major!), then Beethoven Opus 2 No. 1

[lostinidlewonder]

I've gotta say you are pretty daring to do a piece which runs for like 20+ mins in a row for an audience. Usually general audience cannot stay focused in long pieces and all your work has less "effect" on them in the long run. I would feel that the Sonata could be replaced by shorter pieces and be a lot more sucessful, but that is my opinion. But if you you have something amazing to show in this peice, and you have real strong confidence that you can keep the listeners interested for the entire marathon, go for it you can really make a good name with it!

I would simply leave it as Bach/Liszt. Start off with your selection of Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues, connect Liszt to Bach by playing his transcriptions of Bach then blow people away with pure Liszt.

So you could start out with Bach, move into Liszt's writings of Bach, then into Liszt. It would be interesting to observe this newer piano master utilitse the old grandmaster of the keyboards music. I like to think of Bach/Beethoven as the older testament of piano (although Beethoven sorta exists more inbetween) and Liszt/Chopin as the Newer Testament. To hold two of these composers in contrast to one another, and then also show the line which connects them (Liszts trasnscriptions) would be good. Also Liszt's writings of Beethoven might be worthwhile if you want to put some beethoven in also.

Nevertheless you should have, if you are making Liszt such a prominent feature of your concert, have some Liszt transcriptions of the older masters. I think it would be very effective since you are putting Liszt on a stand, this would make his mastery of music a little more complete and educational to the audience.

[pianowelsh]

I recently heard a performance of it coupled with a couple of volumes of Griegs lyric pieces it was a nice recital very fresh and charming. I would personally guard against a too heavy programme not for your sake but for the audiences. Exciting things cease to be special if everything is big and exciting. Preludes and fuges would prob work well or something like scriabin preludes or something like that?

[Alfonso Van Worden]

Hello! I am a new member of this forum, I´ve been reading all this replies and I find them extremely intersting, I´m also playing the sonata, maybe my program will help you and give you some ideas,

Sacarlatti       L. 383 and 449
Beethoven    Sonata Op. 90
Liebermann   Gargoyles
--------------
Liszt              Sonata

It has worked for me to play Sacarlatti in the first part, and later this short sonata from Beethoven, after that some music not very well known (at least in my country) and finally the Sonata.

I hope this can be usefull for you.

I also read that one member doesn´t like the sonata,I would advise him to listen the Arrau´s recording, (in fact I don´t like Arrau, but that recording is really a jewel).

(I hope my English is good enought to show my thougths, because I´m from another country) BYE.

[DavidW]

These are all such wonderful suggestions.  Thank you all.  I just came from my lesson.  The Professor loved the idea of the Beethoven op 2 no 1.  We considered some of the other op 2 sonatas, but decided they were too big; and the first one is perfect.  Then he took me to the second WTC book; which my knowledge of those P&Fs are very limited.  He said he does not understand why everyone plays so much from book one and very little from book 2.  He played through quite a few for me and told me to choose two from book 2.  I'm very excited about that.  Then he said Haydn between the Bach and the Beethoven would be perfect -- so the E flat variations of Haydn-- which are so fresh and new and really just a lovely set of variations.  So here is where we're at:

Bach:  WTC - Book II, (2 preludes/fugues)
Haydn:  E flat variations
Beethoven:  Sonata op 2, no. 1
intermission
Liszt:  - he said after intermission he does not think I should start right away with the Sonata because some people will come in late and be fidgeting, etc., -- so he said just choose any smaller liszt piece to open the second half

Liszt:  Sonata

I think that's where we'll head.  I should be able to learn the first half very quickly.  I have a good foundation of playing early beethoven - so that Sonata will be lots of fun to learn, and not too difficult

The professor thought the Brahms was way too big for this program, and did not like the idea of playing any big Chopin pieces with the Liszt, which is fine.  I'm very happy with where we ended up.

[rodrk352]

Here's the program for a recital coming up this week near me:

Liszt B-Minor Sonata
Liszt Fantasy based on themes from Verdi's Rigoletto
Beethoven Piano Sonata Opus 111, No. 32
Busoni transcription of Chaconne in D-Minor from Bach's Violin Suite

[argerich_smitten]

As a member of the audience or as a pianist, my personal preference is that after you play the Liszt sonata, you turned around again and played it.  Then as an encore, you should play the sonata again. 

Now for the rest of the world who doesn't enjoy the sonata as much as me, even though the all liszt sonata recital would be the 'perfect recital'

My dream recital as a pianist is to play the Liszt sonata, the Schumann Fantasy, and Hammer Klavier, but that would be horribly taxing on the audience wouldn't it (not to mention poor little me).  I think the Fantasy and the Sonata go very well together since they are tied with the dedications (the fantasy is dedicated to Liszt, and the sonata is dedicated to Schumann), and they are both large romantic masterpieces with a lot of contrast.  Probably something older would go very nicely, like a Bach partita or suite.  I think the Wanderer Fantasy suggestion is also a good possibility, or maybe Chopin's 4th scerzo, as they are both resonably large major keyed fantastic pieces. 

As for the first half, I would personally include some works that don't pale in comparison to the Liszt, yet contrast with it greatly. You also would want something to warm the audience up, and not jump straight into the big stuff. This is what I'd do - (might be a little short, though)

There isn't any piece that doesn't pale in comparison to the liszt sonata [!!]

[steinwayguy]

Here's the program for a recital coming up this week near me:

Liszt B-Minor Sonata
Liszt Fantasy based on themes from Verdi's Rigoletto
Beethoven Piano Sonata Opus 111, No. 32
Busoni transcription of Chaconne in D-Minor from Bach's Violin Suite

Why in God's name would you program anything, especially [i]Bach[/i] after Beethoven 111? That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

[pianowelsh]

I know someone who played the Schumann fantasy directly before Liszt sonata. They didnt play that prog again!!!!!

[pianonut]

there's so many ways, i'm realizing, to start and end a program.  in my journal reading (oh no) i happened upon an article about mozart's thoughts in tuning.  he thought pieces that were sharped should be tuned slightly higher (like violin) and pieces flatted slightly lower.  now, if you have a piano that is not tuned at intermission  would you play the b minor (did he write it with sharps - and move into major -back to minor? or flats?)  of liszt BEFORE the flatted pieces to keep the moods of the pieces...or is this hypothesizing too much?

ps. i LOVE scarlatti with liszt, and the ideas also about transcriptions liszt wrote.  that would really tie in whatever composer you did the transcription with to liszt.

[IanT]

I love the Liszt dearly but imo it ends a little quietly for the last item of a recital.  It might be a great way to end a first half though.

Ian

[dbrainiak914]

About a year ago I saw Awadagin Pratt play the Liszt Sonata.

His program was:

Beethoven Sonata No. 30
Beethoven Sonata No. 31
---------------
Liszt Sonata

A great program!

[fred smalls]

I recentedly attended a concert where the pianist played these works in the following order:

Beethoven: Waldstein Sonata
Schumann: Carnival

~Intermission~

Liszt: Sonata in B minor

It was an amazing concert, not a single dull moment, and many different styles although  all written around the same time period (except maybe that Beethoven). I am posting late though, so you have probably already started learning something else. But this is a pretty cool concert plan.

[Jake]

This is actually my ultimate-dream-program:

Alkan - Le Preux
Alkan - Sonatine
-------
Liszt - Sonata

 

[iumonito]

I know someone who played the Schumann fantasy directly before Liszt sonata. They didnt play that prog again!!!!!

These two together make a lot of sense.  Schumann dedicated his C major fantasy to Liszt, Liszt his sonata to Schumann.  Each takes the principles of the late Beethoven sonatas in a different direction, Schumann from the ruins of the classical sonata into constelations, Liszt from the cellular concentration of motives developed to the utmost to the cyclical absolutism of total serialism.

These two pieces feed each other very well.  There is lots on the Liszt that is very Schumanesque.

Make sure you have the Faustian characterization well deliniated in Liszt.  Schumann's poetic elements here are a little more subtle.  You must understand the text provided and also that of the Beethoven song quoted at the end of the first movement.

For kicks, you can leave to chance what you play first (I will be rooting for Liszt in the first half, which makes better poetic sense to me).  Play nothing more.

[steinwayguy]

These two together make a lot of sense.

The Schumann Fantasy followed immediately by the Liszt sonata does not make sense at all. That's absolute insanity!