The top ten hardest piano pieces + Is there anything harder than La Campanella?

[chopin39]

Hi! I just activated my account and I'm not sure if this is the right place for this topic. :-) Anyways...

I've spent a few months trying to catalogue a lot of piano works by their difficulty, and I've reached this for the top ten "hardest" piano pieces:
10. Chopin: Ballade no. 1
9. Chopin: Ocean Etude
8. Vivaldi: Summer (3rd movement)
7. Chopin: Torrent Etude
6. Chopin: Winter Wind Etude
5. Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsody no. 6
4. Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit
3. Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2
2. Liszt: Mazeppa
1. Liszt: La Campanella

I've been searching for something more difficult than La Campanella for months but I can't find anything. Could anyone recommend something to me? Also, how accurate is my list?
Best wishes and thanks in advance,
Chopin39

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Oh, you sweet summer child...
First of all, welcome to forums!

Second of all, LOTS of pieces are harder than the S. 141 version of La Campanella. Just a few off the top of my head... (individual pieces that are by themselves more difficult than S. 141 no. 3 La Campanella listed in parenthesis, bolded works are notably more difficult than other pieces I've listed)
LISZT
S. 140 Etudes d'Execution Transcendant d'Apres Paganini (No. 3, 4, 4b, 6)
S. 139 Transcendental Etudes (No. 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 12)
S. 137 Douze Grande Etudes (No. 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 12)
Rondeau Fantastique "El Contrabandista"
S. 253 Spanish Fantasy
S. 253 Spanish Rhapsody
S. 695 Spanish Songbook
S. 219 Grand Galop Chromatique
S. 218 Galop in A Minor
3 Concert Etudes, S. 144
2 Concert Etudes, S. 145
Concertos (No. 1, 2, 3)
Grand Sonata in B Minor
Annees de Pelerinage (Books 1 and 2, Dante Sonata)
Mephisto Waltz no. 1
Hungarian Rhapsodies (No. 10)
Ballades (both of them)
Reminisces (all of them)
Scherzo und Marche
Symphonic Poems (No. 6 and probably more, but no. 6 is the only one I'm familiar with)
S. 464 Transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies (all of them, especially no. 9)
La Clochette
S. 700i
S. 700ii
CHOPIN
Ballades (No. 4)
Etudes (Op. 10, Op. 25)
Sonatas (all of them)
Polonaises (Op. 22 Grande Polonaise Brillante)
BEETHOVEN
Sonata no. 29 "Hammerklavier"
RAVEL
Gaspard de la Nuit (both the Ondine and Scarbo movements are much harder than La Campanella, and Le Gibet is arguably on the same level)
La Valse
Miroirs
BALAKIREV
Islamey
RACHMANINOFF
2nd Concerto
3rd Concerto
Etudes (Op. 39)
STRAVINSKY
Trois Mouvements de Petrouchka (the only movement La Campanella even comes CLOSE to is mvt. 2; the others are among the hardest works in the repertoire)
SCHUMANN
Op. 7 Toccata
Op. 13 Symphonic Etudes
Op. 17 Fantasy
DEBUSSY
Preludes, Book 2 (Feux d'Artifice)
Images (Book 2)
Etudes (No. 12)
BRAHMS
Variations on a Theme of Paganini
PROKOFIEV
Op. 11 Toccata
Sonatas
Concertos (I believe all of them)
ALKAN
Op. 76 Etudes (all of them)
Le Chemin de Fer
Op. 35 Etudes
Op. 39 Etudes (I believe all of them, particular attention to no. 1, 4-7, 8-10, and 12)
                 Symphony for solo piano (Op. 39 no. 4-7)
                 Concerto for Solo Piano (Op. 39 no. 8-10)
Le Preux
Scherzo Focoso
GODOWSKY
Passacaglia
Studies on Chopin's Etudes (no. 47, 50)
FAURE
Op. 19 Ballade
MEREAUX
Op. 63 Etudes (I believe all of them, particularly no. 20, 24, 42, 45, and 60)
SCRIABIN
Sonatas (No. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Etudes (Op. 42)
MOZART
Sonatas
SCARLATTI
Sonatas
ALBENIZ
Iberia Suite (all movements)
IVES
Sonatas (all of them, particularly no. 2)
CZERNY
Sonatas (Op. 268)
SORABJI
Sonatas (all of them, particularly no. 5)
Sequentia Cyclica
Symphonic Variations
Etudes (I believe all of them)
FINNISSY
English Country-Tunes
XENAKIS
Evryali
Synaphai
Erikthon Sonata
MESSIAEN
Vingt Regards
Catalogue d'Oiseux
LIGETI
Etudes (I believe all of them)

And that's just the stuff that isn't disputed!

As for the "top ten," who the heck knows. It's all subjective.
However, there was a discussion about each individual composer's hardest piece(s) about a month back. You'll find some interesting stuff on there.

Lastly, thank you so much for using "piece" instead of "song." Seriously.


Edit: I did not realize how many pieces I'd listed, lol.

Edit2: I forgot to comment this originally, so...
Instead of just focusing on what the "most difficult pieces" are, try to learn them so you can judge their difficulty for yourself. I recommend getting a teacher and asking for recommendations. You can also find some great tutorials for more advanced pieces on this site and on Youtube, for when you get there. Good luck!

[iamdopeuarenope]

Hi! I just activated my account and I'm not sure if this is the right place for this topic. :-) Anyways...


I've spent a few months trying to catalogue a lot of piano works by their difficulty, and I've reached this for the top ten "hardest" piano pieces:
10. Chopin: Ballade no. 1
9. Chopin: Ocean Etude
8. Vivaldi: Summer (3rd movement)
7. Chopin: Torrent Etude
6. Chopin: Winter Wind Etude
5. Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsody no. 6
4. Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit
3. Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2
2. Liszt: Mazeppa
1. Liszt: La Campanella

I've been searching for something more difficult than La Campanella for months but I can't find anything. Could anyone recommend something to me? Also, how accurate is my list?
Best wishes and thanks in advance,
Chopin39

Ballade No. 1 is not the hardest of his, No. 4 is.
Ocean, Torrent, and Winterwind are not his hardest etudes either. That would go to Chromatic or Double Thirds.
Not sure of Vivaldi but summer isn't that hard.
I believe neither of those rhapsodies are his hardest.
Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit is the hardest piece you've listed.
Feux Follet > Mazeppa, Paganini Etude No. 6 > La Campanella (No. 3).
Your list is very inaccurate and while Gaspard de la Nuit is impossibly hard, I think there are most likely more than 10 harder pieces. It's pointless to rank pieces by difficulty and I don't see why you're doing it in the first place.

Give Late Beethoven Sonatas, Liszt-Beethoven As symphony Transcriptions, Liszt Spanish Fantasy, Liszt Sonata in B Minor, Balakirev's Islamey, Chopin's 2nd and 3rd sonatas, Chopin's Ballade No. 2 and 4, Chopin's Barcarolle, the rest of his etudes, most piano concertos, Scriabin and Profokiev sonatas a try.
 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Give Late Beethoven Sonatas, Liszt-Beethoven As symphony Transcriptions, Liszt Spanish Fantasy, Liszt Sonata in B Minor, Balakirev's Islamey, Chopin's 2nd and 3rd sonatas, Chopin's Ballade No. 2 and 4, Chopin's Barcarolle, the rest of his etudes, most piano concertos, Scriabin and Profokiev sonatas a try.

I greatly appreciate the mention of the Spanish Fantasy lol.

I believe neither of those rhapsodies are his hardest.
Feux Follet > Mazeppa, Paganini Etude No. 6 > La Campanella (No. 3).

Just throwing in my two cents...
HR 10 is generally believed to be the hardest of the HRs, and that last line is debatable on both accounts. I personally believe La Campanella is more difficult that Paganini no. 6 (regarding the S. 141 versions), and I know several people who would say Mazeppa is harder than Feux Follets. (Still, if Mazeppa is on the list, then Feux Follets has to be.)

[iamdopeuarenope]

I greatly appreciate the mention of the Spanish Fantasy lol.Just throwing in my two cents...
HR 10 is generally believed to be the hardest of the HRs, and that last line is debatable on both accounts. I personally believe La Campanella is more difficult that Paganini no. 6 (regarding the S. 141 versions), and I know several people who would say Mazeppa is harder than Feux Follets. (Still, if Mazeppa is on the list, then Feux Follets has to be.)

I agree with the Mazeppa and Feux Follet being interchangeable but I think No. 6 is a decent amount harder than No. 3 because it requires just as much if not more technique as well as being more musically complex. That's just my opinion though, I can see people struggling more on No. 3 since it requires a different technique from No. 6

[chopin39]

@liszt-and-the-gallops
Where can I watch some of those pieces you mentioned?
I don't think I've heard of most of them.
Thanks in advance
Chopin39

[liszt-and-the-galops]

@liszt-and-the-gallops
Where can I watch some of those pieces you mentioned?
I don't think I've heard of most of them.

1. Liszt-and-the-Galops.
2. What do you mean by "watch"?

Anyways, here's a few of my favorite (free) recordings of some of the pieces I mentioned...
Beethoven - Sonata no. 29 "Hammerklavier" preformed by Valentina Lisitsa

Stravinsky - Trois Mouvements de Petrouchka preformed by Sung Chang

Chopin - Etude Op. 25 no. 6 "Double Thirds" preformed by Peter Shannon (aka SeeMusic)

Liszt - S. 253 Spanish Fantasy preformed by Yi-Huang Chung

Scriabin - Sonata no. 7 preformed by Sviatoslav Richter

Alkan - Op. 39 no. 1 "Comme le Vent" preformed by Vincenzo Maltempo

Liszt - S. 140 no. 4 "Arpeggio" preformed by Sung Chang (aka Traum)

And my all-time favorite recording...
Liszt - S. 218 Grand Galop Chromatique preformed by Gyorgy Cziffra (though he does cheat a bit on the "twinkle notes" in some spots)

Hope this helps!

[chopin39]

@liszt-and-the-galops
Are you crazy? Of the pieces that you showed me (which you claimed were harder than La Campanella), I can only see a few of them (Comme le Vent, Arpeggio, maybe Spanish Fantasy) being as hard as Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2. 🙄

I did like the Double Thirds and Arpeggio, though. I'll check those guys out.

Also, you do realize that the video you sent for Grand Galop Chromatique is sped up, right?
Best wishes,
Chopin39

[liszt-and-the-galops]

@liszt-and-the-galops
Are you crazy? Of the pieces that you showed me (which you claimed were harder than La Campanella), I can only see a few of them (Comme le Vent, Arpeggio, maybe Spanish Fantasy) being as hard as Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2. 🙄

Also, you do realize that the video you sent for Grand Galop Chromatique is sped up, right?

LMAOOOOOOOOOO
First of all, the video of one of the most respected concert pianists in history playing his signature piece is NOT sped up, that's even funnier than saying La Campanella is the hardest piano piece.
Second of all, every single one of the pieces I listed was harder than La Campanella by a large margin (except Hammerklavier and Double Thirds, which are still more difficult). Most of them are harder than Gaspard de la Nuit, which is the hardest thing that you actually listed.
I might add that Petrushka and the Spanish Fantasy are contenders for a list of the hardest non-atonal works.

But screw it, have the complete Transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies, S. 464 (transcribed for piano by Liszt):
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0tkG0S-_tkVzi8EDlnu8c5UBZv2eEAeY

Also, just a quick question...
What's your favorite pianist?

[xbrazdil]

How about this?

&t=20s

[transitional]

I don't really love these difficulty ranking videos, but surely you'll find something harder here.

Possibly the only way to find out the difficulty for yourself is by trying each piece.

[chopin39]

@transitional
I can't read sheet music lol, what am I supposed to do with that.

Same thing for @xbrazdil.

@liszt-and-the-galops
1. Yes that video was grossly sped up, it wouldn't sound warped otherwise
2. No, none of those pieces are anywhere near La Campanella, and Petrushka didn't seem like it was even on the same level ass Ballade no. 1
3. Again I can't read sheet music. Stop sending me stuff that I can't read
4. My favorite pianist is Rousseau. I guess now you're going to insult me for that, aren't you.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

@transitional
I can't read sheet music lol, what am I supposed to do with that.

Same thing for @xbrazdil.

3. Again I can't read sheet music. Stop sending me stuff that I can't read

...

1. Yes that video was grossly sped up, it wouldn't sound warped otherwise
2. No, none of those pieces [Hammerklavier, Double Thirds, Spanish Fantasy, Petrushka, S. 140 No. 4, Scriabin Sonata no. 7, Grand Galop Chromatique, Comme le Vent] are anywhere near La Campanella [in difficulty], and Petrushka didn't seem like it was even on the same level ass Ballade no. 1

This is going on r/confidentlyincorrect lmao.

4. My favorite pianist is Rousseau. I guess now you're going to insult me for that, aren't you.

Figured. And no, I'm not going to insult you for that.









Good. Bye.

[iamdopeuarenope]

@transitional
I can't read sheet music lol, what am I supposed to do with that.

Same thing for @xbrazdil.

@liszt-and-the-galops
1. Yes that video was grossly sped up, it wouldn't sound warped otherwise
2. No, none of those pieces are anywhere near La Campanella, and Petrushka didn't seem like it was even on the same level ass Ballade no. 1
3. Again I can't read sheet music. Stop sending me stuff that I can't read
4. My favorite pianist is Rousseau. I guess now you're going to insult me for that, aren't you.

Rage baiting on a piano forum 🌚

[chopin39]

@liszt-and-the-galops
Is this some sort of cruel joke you play on new members? It's not funny...


@iamdopeuarenope
No???
What are you people talking about???


SMH why does every single piano forum immediately attack me for asking their opinion on a simple question...

[bryfarr]

SMH why does every single piano forum immediately attack me for asking their opinion on a simple question...

Because when someone who doesn't read music, and therefore isn't a pianist or piano student,  thinks they can rate difficulty of these pieces on listening alone - - - it strikes us as very naive.  We can't really take your opinions seriously.  To rate difficulty (and ultimately it's subjective) you need to have studied piano for at least 5 years, be able to read the score, and have some idea of what it takes to execute the passages at full tempo.  Makes sense?

[kaideedee17]

yo im a newbie too but I've learned one thing - you don't mess with Liszt-and-the-Galops
They know their stuff - and almost all of the pieces they mentioned are harder than Gaspard de la Nuit
I'm just saying - if you don't know what you're talking about (like not being able to read sheet music), don't try to argue with people with experience 
no hate intended

[liszt-and-the-galops]

yo im a newbie too but I've learned one thing - you don't mess with Liszt-and-the-Galops
They know their stuff - and almost all of the pieces they mentioned are harder than Gaspard de la Nuit
I'm just saying - if you don't know what you're talking about (like not being able to read sheet music), don't try to argue with people with experience 
no hate intended

I mean, I'd say I'm alright at assessing difficulty when compared to other people who are about the same level as me (grad school amateur who can play the easiest ChopEt), but I'm certainly not as good at it as people who are more skilled than I am (e.g thorn, transitional, pianistavt, etc.). I also don't even come close to most of the teachers and professionals on this site (e.g lostinidlewonder, ahinton, etc.)
I do appreciate the compliment, though!

[pianistavt]

I mean, I'd say I'm alright at assessing difficulty when compared to other people who are about the same level as me (grad school amateur who can play the easiest ChopEt), but I'm certainly not as good at it as people who are more skilled than I am (e.g thorn, transitional, pianistavt, etc.). I also don't even come close to most of the teachers and professionals on this site (e.g lostinidlewonder, ahinton, etc.)
I do appreciate the compliment, though!

thank you for the mention!

I've only been reading this post.  I wonder how old chopin29 is - - then again not even an audacious kid would argue with experienced adult pianists on this topic, which makes me wonder if it was a prank ...

[transitional]

SMH why does every single piano forum immediately attack me for asking their opinion on a simple question...

We're not attacking you. We're just saying that your opinion isn't objectively right, just like our opinion isn't objectively right either. But it is a bit strange of you to be so stuck on the idea that La Campanella is, without question, the hardest piece.

[quantum]

I mean, I'd say I'm alright at assessing difficulty when compared to other people who are about the same level as me (grad school amateur who can play the easiest ChopEt), but I'm certainly not as good at it as people who are more skilled than I am (e.g thorn, transitional, pianistavt, etc.). I also don't even come close to most of the teachers and professionals on this site (e.g lostinidlewonder, ahinton, etc.)
I do appreciate the compliment, though!

The list of pieces you provided is well rounded and covers a good portion of the standard repertoire.  It provides a reasonable response to the topic of this thread, and gives the OP a starting point to further investigate the rep. 

You've done your research and provided many examples.  Give yourself some credit.  Yes, you do know what you are talking about.

[frodo5]

Just want to mention Brahms piano concerto #2 could be added here.  It is one of the greatest works written for piano and one of the toughest to play.  EDIT:  Also could add Beethoven Diabelli variations for same reasons.  Edit2:  Also could add Brahms Handel variations for same reasons.  Edit 3: Also could add Brahms piano sonata 3 for same reasons.  Edit 4:  Already mentioned are the great Liszt transcriptions of Beethoven symphonies.  Of course they would be put under Liszt, not Beethoven here.  \ Some of them are so successfully transcribed IMO, I can almost imagine Beethoven writing them as the grandest of all his piano sonatas.

[droprenstein]

La Campanella is, at least IMO, nowhere near the hardest piece. It's way overhyped in terms of difficulty. I don't know why La Campanella is so hyped up, I mean it's a pretty tough piece but it doesn't belong on any list of hardest piano pieces. I doubt it should even place anywhere in Liszt's pieces alone. He wrote many pieces that are much harder than La Campanella. I'd even say it's one of his easier Etudes(to be clear that's a very, very high bar). As a starting point, look at the transcendental etudes, a lot of which equal or surpass the difficulty of la campanella, Beethoven's late sonatas, and any of Rach's concertos, and you'll soon find things like the Alkan etudes and, as frodo5 said, Brahms's 2nd piano concerto, that make playing La Campanella feel like chopsticks.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You have to be trolling lmao

Okay so let’s take all Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Bartok, Scriabin, Tchaikovsky concertos.  And now let’s take all of their sonatas (half of Beethoven sonatas). 

That’s over 50 pieces harder than La Campanella and I barely scratched the surface of standard rep. 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

That’s over 50 pieces harder than La Campanella and I barely scratched the surface of standard rep.

Sorabji - Etudes
Mereaux - Etudes
There's 160 more for you.

[thorn]

I'm picking out these two particularly special Messiaen live recordings by his wife, who they were written for. Messiaen himself is in the second video, probably in the audience of the first too- who knows.

Regard de l'esprit de joie, one of the most difficult Vingt Regards

Le Loriot, no.2 from Catalogue d'oiseaux (skip to 47 mins in. Bonus at 20 mins in, Lavapies the most difficult of Albeniz's Iberia- Messiaen was a huge fan of the suite if you're wondering the connection)

i=cDoOEtRPLGEuj92I

[transitional]

I hate to say it, but the original Rush E is significantly harder than La Campanella.

Seriously though, check post 7 of this thread. All of these pieces are fair game. https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=18472.0

[bryfarr]

You have to be trolling lmao

Agreed. 

This post reminds me of the first and only post by new member, geister, about how:  Schumann is a greater genius than Bach/Beethoven and Chopin writes "living room melodies".

Why do trolls troll? 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Agreed. 

This post reminds me of the first and only post by new member, geister, about how:  Schumann is a greater genius than Bach/Beethoven and Chopin writes "living room melodies".

Why do trolls troll?

I remember that one, lol. At least it wasn't an overused joke.

[bryfarr]

I remember that one, lol. At least it wasn't an overused joke.

That's true.  "La Campanella is the Hardest Piece Ever", has been around for a while ...

[chopin39]

@bryfarr
I'm not trolling. There's a reason why so many lists have La Campanella at #1...

@rachmaninoff_forever
No.

@rachmaninoff_forever and liszt-and-the-galops
None of those are as hard as La Campanella.

@transitional
La Campanella is objectively the hardest piece.

@quantum
If he (or anyone here) ACTUALLY did their research, they'd realize that I'm right about La Campanella. I might be wrong on some other things, but La Campanella at #1 is a given.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

@transitional
La Campanella is objectively the hardest piece.

I just have to do this.
10. Chopin/Godowsky - 53 Studies on Chopin's Etudes
9. Liszt - S. 140 Etudes d'Execution Transcendant d'Apres Paganini
8. Liszt - S. 137 Douze Grande Etudes
7. Albeniz - Iberia Suite
6. Liszt - S. 253 Spanish Fantasy
5. Alkan - 12 Etudes in all the Minor Keys Op. 39
4. Ives - Sonata no. 2 "Concord"
3. Liszt - S. 464 Transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies
2. Mereaux - Op. 63 Sixty Grande Etudes...

1. La Campanella S. 141 no. 3







Also, petition for everyone who responds to this thread to change the subject field so it says:
Re: The guy who thinks Cziffra sped up his recordings. ? ? ? lmao

[frodo5]

My piano composition is harder than La Campanella.  It lasts 5 minutes when played up to tempo.  It is in 4/4 time and in F major. The tempo is 80 BPM.  The left hand plays perpetual 16th notes that alternates from the lowest C on the piano to the highest C.  These repeated C's are a pedal point that creates great tension and excitement, which leads to a final resolution of F at the end of the piece.  While the LH is busy playing the massive jumps at the required tempo, the RH is playing a variety of textures and harmonies. 

I can guarantee that Franz Liszt himself could not play this piece at the required tempo..

So to answer Chopin39's question:
Is there anything harder than La Campanella?  Yes - a composition that I wrote

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I AM La Campanella

[lostinidlewonder]

I tested it. La Campanella merely floated onto my feet and didn't hurt, I tried Bach WTC the two books sorta hurt my foot when I dropped them. My complete Beethoven volume hardcovered sorta missed my foot and the corner caught my little toe crushing it, pretty painful. So hardness depends on the weight of the paper and book type, /investigation.

[chopin39]

@liszt-and-the-galops
Never heard of any of those, and I highly doubt that they're harder than La Campanella.

@frodo5
That obviously doesn't count. I can make a song that's just high C, middle C, and low C played at the same time. Tell me that there's a piece that's harder than that.

@rachmaninoff_forever
troll...

@lostinidlewonder
Not funny.
Also, what the heck is Bach WTC?

[frodo5]

@frodo5
That obviously doesn't count. I can make a song that's just high C, middle C, and low C played at the same time. Tell me that there's a piece that's harder than that.

You can roll the notes in your composition, which sounds kind of boring to me - just 3 notes.. The composition MUST be playable by a human without aid.  I change the tempo of my piece from 80 BPM to 50 BPM and it is playable and yet it is harder than La Campanella.  Takes 20 years of practice by a world class pianist to master my composition.   

[droprenstein]

All right I'm gonna assume this guy's not a troll for a second.
Maybe learn to read music before you start making claims thinking you know better than the many pros on this site. Pretty much anyone who knows anything about piano knows that La Campanella doesn't belong on any list of the most difficult pieces.

10. Chopin/Godowsky - 53 Studies on Chopin's Etudes
9. Liszt - S. 140 Etudes d'Execution Transcendant d'Apres Paganini
8. Liszt - S. 137 Douze Grande Etudes
7. Albeniz - Iberia Suite
6. Liszt - S. 253 Spanish Fantasy
5. Alkan - 12 Etudes in all the Minor Keys Op. 39
4. Ives - Sonata no. 2 "Concord"
3. Liszt - S. 464 Transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies
2. Mereaux - Op. 63 Sixty Grande Etudes...

1. La Campanella S. 141 no. 3

except this one right here lol.
Take a good look at the music for Alkan's Le Preux etude and honestly tell me that you think it's easier than La Campanella. Oh wait, you can't read music. Here's an incredible performance of it:

And there are a lot of Alkan Etudes more difficult than that one.
Also no one insults Cziffra like that, the man might as well have been superhuman

[liszt-and-the-galops]

La Campanella doesn't belong on any list of the most difficult pieces. 
except this one right here lol.

lmao I had fun making that.

And there are a lot of Alkan Etudes more difficult than that one.

I suppose you could argue 76/2 and 39/10, but that's about it.

Here's an incredible performance of it:

TBH I feel like he fumbles a bit near the end. I'm not sure between this version and Barbaro Mr.'s second version:

He does it much slower, but seems to be a bit more accurate.

Also no one insults Cziffra like that, the man might as well have been superhuman

Damn right.

Take a good look at the music for Alkan's Le Preux etude

Going to just put this out there. If I was actually making a top ten list that excluded Sorabji and onwards, it'd be Le Preux, Alkan Op. 76, Trois Mouvements de Petrouchka that would get 10th. Brahms Paganini Variations is also up there.
Though once you get that high, the question goes from "which piece (with a well-defined difficulty) is harder" to "which piece (with an arbitrarily high difficulty) is harder."
There's just no way to accurately place them.

Just as an example, I have played nothing anywhere close to Liszt S. 140 or Godowsky's 53 Studies (and even "anywhere close" may be an overstatement of my abilities). However, I feel that S. 140 is almost undeniably harder than the 53 Studies. I also know for a fact that Liszt himself would have said that Godowsky's Studies were more difficult than his S. 140 Etudes, simply due to the fact that Godowsky's style of writing was not what Liszt was used to (he had sightread Islamey to perfection, yet struggled with Faure). I also believe that there are at least a few people who have learned most of both sets (barring those that are simply not accessible, e.g S. 140 no. 4b and Study no. 50, for varying reasons) who would strongly disagree with my statement. I also believe that at least of few of those people would agree with me.

The point is that difficulty is subjective, especially so when you get into the truly impossible works; a mark that the S. 141 La Campanella comes no where close to.

[droprenstein]

Fair enough with the bit of fumbling at the end, but to be fair that octave passage is insane. I prefer Huang Yi-Chung's because I much prefer it with the extra speed she puts on it, I think it's a good trade off for the small sacrifice in cleanness. Feels much more energetic IMO.
On your last point, yeah you're right.
I'm 99% sure this guys just a troll though, this is just on the off chance, you never really know. I mean why would the guy ask if there's something harder than La Campanella, and then double down and say that it's objectively the hardest. And insulting Cziffra on a piano board? You might as well walk into the middle of a church and say "Satan is actually a pretty chill guy".

[frodo5]

The point is that difficulty is subjective, especially so when you get into the truly impossible works; a mark that the S. 141 La Campanella comes no where close to.

I agree with your thought here about La Campanella.  But I believe difficulty can be measured objectively.  Here is perhaps an oversimplified example.

Let’s look at comparing the following works to see which is more difficult.
1)   Brahms piano concerto #2
2)   Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata
3)   Liszt La Campenella

Find a minimum of 20 very young close to world class pianists and have each of them learn these works to close to world class concert level accuracy, musicality, and performance speed.  The trick is to find young enough top players that have not already spent much time learning these works.  Let’s assume we can find 20 such young pianists.

On average (for 20 pianists), it takes the following amount of practice time to reach the required performance level as judged by a jury of 5.  Keep in mind, these are young players, maybe age 18-22.

1000 hours for Brahms piano concerto #2
1100 hours Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata
150 hours Liszt La Campenella

So, we can conclude that Hammerklavier is the most difficult because it took the most time to learn to concert performance level. 

But then, we can also see which is the most difficult on a per minute basis.  Brahms takes 49 minutes to perform, but I am going to count as 40 minutes since rough guess is 9 minutes is the orchestra playing by itself.  Beethoven takes 40 minutes also. La Campenella takes 5 minutes.

Brahms piano concerto #2 takes 1000/40 = 25 hours per minute to learn
Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata takes 1100/40 = 27.5 hours per minute to learn
Liszt La Campenella takes 150/5 – 30 hours per minute to learn
On a per minute of performance time basis, La Campenella is the hardest.

KEEP IN MIND: MY NUMBERS ARE COMPLETELY MADE UP AND ARE FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY.

[lostinidlewonder]

@lostinidlewonder
Not funny.
Also, what the heck is Bach WTC?

I know not as funny as your posts. WTC is a secret it is impossible to google, so you'll never know.

[transitional]

I know not as funny as your posts. WTC is a secret it is impossible to google, so you'll never know.

I searched both and can clearly see which is harder. 



Edit: Wow poor reading on Wikipedia's part. Well, since I clearly haven't gone through the effort to search harder, this is what you have.

[thorn]

It's a shame difficulty is always separated from musical quality. La Campanella (and all the Paganinis tbh) are prime examples of why people think Liszt is shallow virtuosity. Like why would you even bother learning LC beyond fishing for likes and followers?

For the record I think Liszt is the greatest Romantic composer, so no hate! He just did the equivalent of an alchemist presenting partially mutated lumps of rock alongside the pure gold. And for some reason people were more interested in the rock. Reminds me of Ravel's exasperation when he realised that of all his works Bolero would be the one he would be most remembered for.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

But I believe difficulty can be measured objectively.

I really don't think that's true.

Find a minimum of 20 very young close to world class pianists and have each of them learn these works to close to world class concert level accuracy, musicality, and performance speed.  The trick is to find young enough top players that have not already spent much time learning these works.  Let’s assume we can find 20 such young pianists.

On average (for 20 pianists), it takes the following amount of practice time to reach the required performance level as judged by a jury of 5.  Keep in mind, these are young players, maybe age 18-22.

1000 hours for Brahms piano concerto #2
1100 hours Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata
150 hours Liszt La Campenella

So, we can conclude that Hammerklavier is the most difficult because it took the most time to learn to concert performance level. 

But then, we can also see which is the most difficult on a per minute basis.  Brahms takes 49 minutes to perform, but I am going to count as 40 minutes since rough guess is 9 minutes is the orchestra playing by itself.  Beethoven takes 40 minutes also. La Campenella takes 5 minutes.

Brahms piano concerto #2 takes 1000/40 = 25 hours per minute to learn
Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata takes 1100/40 = 27.5 hours per minute to learn
Liszt La Campenella takes 150/5 – 30 hours per minute to learn
On a per minute of performance time basis, La Campenella is the hardest.

...Especially just by measuring how long it takes to learn the piece.
There are just so many hidden variables that it's impossible to control for. Take the following example:
La Campanella: 4 minutes (Cziffra recording)
Le Preux: 6 minutes (average recording)
Someone only needs to learn a Le Preux ~33% faster than La Campanella to mess up the whole thing horrifically. That can be very easily accomplished by pulling some strings on the timeline.

It's a shame difficulty is always separated from musical quality. La Campanella (and all the Paganinis tbh) are prime examples of why people think Liszt is shallow virtuosity. Like why would you even bother learning LC beyond fishing for likes and followers?

I feel the same way about the S. 141 Etudes (except for La Chasse). IMO the S. 140 versions are almost all better than the S. 141s.
I posted this in the unpopular opinions thread not too long ago.

[essence]

It's a funny thing, hardness. Very subjective. Everybody has a different body and skills. Musical? Physical?

i personally find La Campanella very hard, I would never try to play in public. My fingers just won;t do it.

However, I have played in public many of Rach's op 39, many of the vingt regards, Scriabins sonatas no 10 and 8. Liszt sonata. Chopin Ballade #4.

I play the Hammerklavier privately, but not in public. The slow movement, IMHO, is by far the hardest. I like Solomon's recording, but other famous pianists I have problems with.

It's like Chopin Ballade #4 - the first few bars are the most difficult.  i remember a BBC radio 3 record review, comparing performances, which spent most of the time oomparing those first bars.

Have studied Chopin double thirds etude and Brahms Handel variations at a London guildhall school of music.

Yes, for me, La Campanella is hard. Too hard. My little fingers don;t like it at all.

[frodo5]

I really don't think that's true....Especially just by measuring how long it takes to learn the piece.
There are just so many hidden variables that it's impossible to control for. Take the following example:
La Campanella: 4 minutes (Cziffra recording)
Le Preux: 6 minutes (average recording)
Someone only needs to learn a Le Preux ~33% faster than La Campanella to mess up the whole thing horrifically.

Not sure exactly what you are saying here.  But let's say you are looking for a specific tempo requirement for a piece.  How difficult is a 4 minute flat La Campanella?  This is a very fast tempo.  Have the 20 pianists that I previously mention learn to play this in 4 minutes flat.  If performed too slow - the jury automatically fails the performance and the student must keep practicing until it passes.  If a pianist does perform this in 4 minutes flat or less, then the jury will need to determine if the performance meets their high standards for accuracy and musicality.   If performed unsatisfactorily - the jury fails the performance and the student must keep practicing until it passes.  I HAVE FAITH IN A QUALIFIED JURY!

Here are the final results for a 4-minute flat La Campanella:

12 were unable to accomplish this - several did it under 4 minutes, but too many mistakes were made and/or the piece fell apart musically. Again  I HAVE FAITH IN A QUALIFIED JURY!

8 passed the jury requirement with an average of 1400 hours of practice needed to accomplish this. 

On a per minute of performance time basis, a 4-minute flat La Campanella takes 1400/4 = 350 hours to learn each minute of La Campanella on average for 8 of 20 pianists.

The same test could be done for a 5.5 minute Le Preux to determine if a 5.5 minute Le Preux is more difficult than a 4.0 minute La Campanella.

KEEP IN MIND: MY NUMBERS ARE COMPLETELY MADE UP AND ARE FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY.

[frodo5]

It's a funny thing, hardness. Very subjective. Everybody has a different body and skills. Musical? Physical?

Everybody has a different body and skills. - That's why we test at least 20 pianists as in my prior post.

Where are the scientifically minded people here?!?!

[brogers70]

Where are the scientifically minded people here?!?!

Off doing something more interesting than trying to come up with a system to rank the difficulty of very difficult piano pieces.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Not sure exactly what you are saying here.

I'm saying that it's possible for someone to learn Le Preux in less time than that same person did for La Campanella. In fact, it's very likely that the average person who progresses that far will have done so.

Have the 20 pianists that I previously mention learn to play this in 4 minutes flat.  If performed too slow - the jury automatically fails the performance and the student must keep practicing until it passes.  If a pianist does perform this in 4 minutes flat or less, then the jury will need to determine if the performance meets their high standards for accuracy and musicality.   If performed unsatisfactorily - the jury fails the performance and the student must keep practicing until it passes.  I HAVE FAITH IN A QUALIFIED JURY!

There are so many problems with this...
Just for starters, not everyone learns something at the same speed; the same person can learn two different things at completely different speeds (the classic example is Algebra vs. Geometry, but I digress). The speed at which someone learns something simply has too many confounding variables for it to be a decent measure of difficulty, not to mention that it's practically impossible to pull off in real life.

That's why we test at least 20 pianists as in my prior post.

If my mental math is correct -- I am a bit rusty on my statistics, so I'm probably a bit off --, then you'd need a bare minimum of 50 to have any decent shot at a statistically significant result, and at least 250 for <50% odds of a type II error.

Where are the scientifically minded people here?!?!

There's only one who has the patience to respond to you...
And his patience is getting lower.