Left hand with the runs in Chopin prelude 24 in D minor

[charlie5132]

Hello, I've been working on Chopin prelude 24 and have a question about how the left hand fits in with the runs. For the F major, there are 28 notes in the right (29 if you include the high F in the following bar) and 8 in the left, but the final left hand note is well before the last of the run. The first notes line up and I assume the F lines up with the C in the second batch of four in the left.Besides this I am not quite sure how it is supposed to fit in. Thanks for the help

[perfect_pitch]

The easiest way I get students to do these polyrhythmic type of passages is to slightly toy with the counting.
Say you had septuplet semiquavers vs 4 normal semiquavers; I'd get them to play the septuplets in groups of say 1-2-2-2 for every semiquaver, then 2-1-2-2, or 2-2-1-2 and then 2-2-2-1.

What you do is allow them to experience this weirdly shifting sound while keeping the normal semiquavers stead. Same can be applied to the Chopin. Assume the 28 notes can be divided amongst the 12 semiquaver beats in the LH. I'd do something silly like 3-3-3-3-2-2.... Then start to shift the 3's by a semiquaver beat (do 2-3-3-3-3-2-2...) and you'll start to feel the fluidity of not attaching the RH to the LH.

I did the same thing for the runs in the 3rd movement of the Petrushka from Stravinsky.

[jonslaughter]

Hello, I've been working on Chopin prelude 24 and have a question about how the left hand fits in with the runs. For the F major, there are 28 notes in the right (29 if you include the high F in the following bar) and 8 in the left, but the final left hand note is well before the last of the run. The first notes line up and I assume the F lines up with the C in the second batch of four in the left.Besides this I am not quite sure how it is supposed to fit in. Thanks for the help

When a run is noted that way there is no time. You basically align the start and ending notes. The point of such a run is not time and it achieves it's effect by floating across the rhythm of the left hand(should should generally have time but with Rubato you won't necessary notice).

What you should do is play it like you want. If you are talking about how to coordinate it so you start and end correctly then, well, the starting point is obvious.

There are 28 notes in the run in the measure(29 with the final but that is fixed) as you mention. Those 28 notes are to fill the bar essentially evenly. That is why they are noted that way. If he wanted an acceleration on the last 14 notes the notation would have to be different. But generally you likely want to accelerate it towards the end to make it more dramatic, right?

You can practice it in strict time by breaking into 14 notes while playing a repetitive LH and just work on getting the timing down which is easier fast than it is slow. But I think ultimately it is not about timing. You can play the run any way you want and it is really about independence.

For example, the downward run has 13 notes in a beat then it repeats the previous run but on E7.

So are you suppose to stuff 13 notes evenly or aligned in some way? No, It will become very rigid if you do that and lose it's character. What it should do is feel smooth and accelerate towards the end creating momentum into the final note which resolves the dominant. E.g., think vaulting. The runner doesn't run at the same speed up to the vault. They have to get some momentum and accelerate towards the end to launch themselves. The land is hitting that final F note correctly(precisely in time and being the loudest).

So exactly how you approach the run is up to you but it should be smooth but it is very likely not going to be breaking it down evenly. You can try it. if you like it that way then fine. It is worth learning it that way as it helps you get the feel for the timing down and it is "right" in the sense that it gives you the minimum necessary to make it work. But if you can just learn to feel it then it will be much easier.

E.g., How I play things like this: I play them knowing about how much faster or slower I have to play. Just by gauging it. If I feel clueless or not sure I will break it down into  smaller chunks that make sense(sorta like you are doing). Initially I will just try to guess to give me an idea where I'm at with it. If I'm totally off then I will break it down(and some days will be easier than others).

But if I can sorta get it close I then work from there and decide if I need to speed up for slow down. I do this by repeating the few parts over and over as much as required. It's usually as easy as "Ok, I was too late and ran into the vault, that hurt, run faster next time and about this amount, don't run so fast at the start)" and then make the decision. Each iteration will get you closer and closer. Usually, but not always, the first few iterations are quite easy because you can get pretty close quickly but it might take longer to dial it in. Part of that though is feeling how you want it to be. What feels right to you. If it feels right to you then it is right. This is why Chopin didn't make it exact. He could have but he didn't for a reason.

But the utmost important thing here is the LH. That is the rhythm that provides the energy to make it all work. E.g., it's like the breathing. Even when running you want it to be natural and rhythmical. It is natural for it to accelerate a little towards the end to or to hold it but that depends on context and it always has to feel right(and a lot of that has to do with meter and timing).

If you listen to various "masters" play these things they all do it slightly different and some drastically different. It's stylistic and ultimately you do have some wiggle room.

That initial turn could be played significantly slower and the entire run played more natural but with some acceleration at the end. It shouldn't be too drastic else Chopin would have notated it different but you could bend the notation somewhat to your will if you like it that way. The turn could be played really fast and the last note  given significant space. You could reverse the idea and decrescendo. This is possible but more difficult because it requires much more skill to make it work since you are losing momentum. If done well though it can be even more dramatic. What you don't want to do is do things so strange that it sounds clownish or awkward or stylistic. He's made all the notes equal in value in notation for a reason to signal it should be relatively smooth. This does not mean it's metronomic. The more you play the piece the more you can experiment. One day you might play it, once you have the basics down, and you might play it in a way that just feels good to you and then you start playing it that way. After all, that is what Chopin did. He could have did something completely different any other day. A million different runs could replace that run and it work just as good. It's all about feel and it being natural and musical. Nothing more nothing less. If you wanted to improve something new you could play around with that. Of course you wouldn't be playing what Chopin *intended* but there is no law of the universe that says you have to even play Chopin(or the piano or music in general or anything). Ultimately you have far more freedom than I think you realize.

In short, just make it fit the way you want it. If you like it then that is all that matters. If you are wanting to improve your abilities then it is useful to be able to play these pieces and "master" them because it adds to your technique and experiences but realize that even in this case there can be some wiggle room(specially with Chopin and Romantic styles. It's not Bach after all(but even in some Bach one see's the rules are meant to be bend). Notation can present something as fixed when, in fact, there is a lot of room for variation. The composers had to write something down but it doesn't mean it was written in stone. In fact,  Chopin himself may play it different every time he played it.It could just be nuances or he might even have inserted different runs("recomposing on the fly" or improving it).

[lelle]

I play it quite approximately. Check where the last note of the left hand figure aligns with the right hand, align those when you play, the rest is free.