Authentic vs. Midi polished Performances

[klavieronin]

A simple question; if you were recording music for your students to listen to (to help them choose pieces to learn or to demonstrate how a piece should sound) would you go for imperfect but authentic performances or polish your performances in midi post-production?
(Assume, for the sake of the question, that fully polished authentic performances are more work for you than they're worth.)

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Not a teacher, but I'd probably be able to find a good performance on the internet.
If I couldn't, then I'd probably stick with a real, unedited, and imperfect performance.

[klavieronin]

Not a teacher, but I'd probably be able to find a good performance on the internet.
If I couldn't, then I'd probably stick with a real, unedited, and imperfect performance.

I probably could find recordings of a lot of the pieces but my plan was to record all the music in the "Classics to Moderns" series and put them online for others to use/listen to and I don't want to get into any copyright issues by using other people's recordings.

I'm leaning towards authentic performances too. My GF said she can't hear anything wrong with my performances anyway so it might just be my trained musician's ear that's picking up on the little imperfections anyway. Still, I think my performances are a far cry from what I would expect from a concert pianist (which I am definitely not).

[lostinidlewonder]

In lessons I'd play the works in person for them. Asking students to listen and explore on their own doesn't usually work unless they are the type who actively search pieces but in that case you'd have them give you their own list of desired works.

Midi files are interesting in the way that they can be visualised in different ways like synthesia falling notes, augmented reality or within midi editors. This may provide more engagement.

[lelle]

My GF said she can't hear anything wrong with my performances anyway so it might just be my trained musician's ear that's picking up on the little imperfections anyway.

Tell me about it! I recently recorded a little something for a project, and you just hear every little thing that could have been better when you listen to your own performances, even if we are talking about tiiny missmatches of tone or rhythm that 99% of listeners won't ever detect. It's just the nature of the beast.

If I choose to listen with my most critical ear (the one typically reserved for myself) I can hear imperfections in professional recordings too! I don't remember which CD now but there was a studio recording with Andsnes where even some wrong notes were left on the final recording! But typically the overall imperfection level is lower the greater the musician.

[klavieronin]

In lessons I'd play the works in person for them. Asking students to listen and explore on their own doesn't usually work unless they are the type who actively search pieces but in that case you'd have them give you their own list of desired works.

Midi files are interesting in the way that they can be visualised in different ways like synthesia falling notes, augmented reality or within midi editors. This may provide more engagement.

Yeah, I see your point. Although I think my intention might be a little different to what you’re thinking. It isn’t just for my own students but for anybody using the same series to learn/teach from. And the idea was to just give an initial impression so students could easily choose pieces from the set that sound interesting and have an idea of what they’re aiming for. It’s not really about working on the finer details of performance (if that’s what you were thinking)

And I know that midi visualisers are popular and can be very engaging and useful in many circumstances but I kind of don’t want people using it as a crutch to avoid learning to read notation, which is such a valuable skill that I think it’s worth the effort, IMHO.

[klavieronin]

Tell me about it! I recently recorded a little something for a project, and you just hear every little thing that could have been better when you listen to your own performances, even if we are talking about tiiny missmatches of tone or rhythm that 99% of listeners won't ever detect. It's just the nature of the beast.

If I choose to listen with my most critical ear (the one typically reserved for myself) I can hear imperfections in professional recordings too! I don't remember which CD now but there was a studio recording with Andsnes where even some wrong notes were left on the final recording! But typically the overall imperfection level is lower the greater the musician.

Ah, okay. Well I’m glad it’s not just me then. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Yeah, I see your point. Although I think my intention might be a little different to what you’re thinking. It isn’t just for my own students but for anybody using the same series to learn/teach from.

Well your opening sentence was: A simple question; if you were recording music for your students.

So that is what I went off and indeed most students won't really explore music in this fashion from my experience, if they do they already would have music lists of their desired works.

And I know that midi visualisers are popular and can be very engaging and useful in many circumstances but I kind of don’t want people using it as a crutch to avoid learning to read notation, which is such a valuable skill that I think it’s worth the effort, IMHO.

It's not a crutch it's a way to listen and watch the music.

[klavieronin]

Well your opening sentence was: A simple question; if you were recording music for your students.

So that is what I went off and indeed most students won't really explore music in this fashion from my experience, if they do they already would have music lists of their desired works.

Completely understandable given how I phrased the question. I was primarily thinking of my own students but I thought, as long as I'm going to the trouble of recording all this music I may as well make it available for others. I was just trying to avoid writing a long winded question that nobody could be bothered to read so I (perhaps mistakenly) left out many details.
Whether or not this is a worthwhile pursuit seems to be what you are responding and it is a question worth considering. Personally, I have always appreciated being able to listen to recordings of sheet music anthologies so I figure there must be others out there.
In any case, whether or not I should do this wasn't really the question I was asking. What I'm really interested in is people's view on genuine but imperfect performances vs. artificially polished performances. Do you have any views on that? I'd love to hear them.

It's not a crutch it's a way to listen and watch the music.

Agreed, they definitely don't have to be but I have seen them used that way by some of my former students. And everyone has their own preferences. Personally, I find looking at the score while listening to music far more interesting and entertaining then midi visualisers. Each to their own, I guess.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not saying don't do it, I am just explaining how students behave in general. Most students will passively learn rather than actively make choices. So even with giving them recordings they often just won't really know what to choose or not. Sure I'll play some pieces for my students but I limit their choice based on what will work best for them.

 If you are adding that you want it just to be for anyone then there really is no question there. Just be wary in a teacher/student situation asking the student to explore on their own usually comes with lack of interest to do so on the students behalf.

It's not a matter of what one likes more or not I feel too when it comes to experiencing music. Watching sheet music and audio vs watching it on a midi with graphical effects, you'll find a large majority of learning students will find the graphical midi quite engaging. This has nothing to do with how they should learn or what's best, it is just how to engage and allow those learning to visualise and see music in a creative manner.

[klavieronin]

I understand what you’re saying and I don’t really have any disagreement with any of that.
As far as my own students are concerned, what I’ve been doing is playing a small selection of pieces for them in the lesson then asking them to choose one to learn. I like to do it that way because it gives them a sense of autonomy, rather than just being assigned a piece to play. That’s just for the ones who won’t choose music to play on their own. For the ones that do, I let them learn whatever they want.

So I do hear what you’re saying and I largely agree. Most students won’t explore music on their own and that’s why we do it in the lesson. And as far as the midi visualisers are concerned, I’ll definitely consider it as an option but I’m not at that stage yet.

But like I said before, these aren’t the questions I was asking. The question, to reiterate, was what are people’s views on imperfect but authentic performances vs. artificially polished performances.

[lostinidlewonder]

As far as my own students are concerned, what I’ve been doing is playing a small selection of pieces for them in the lesson then asking them to choose one to learn.

Yes this is the standard way to introduce music to students. What I read from the OP was just giving them a list of works and having them listen to it on their own. That of course comes with challenges as I described.

And as far as the midi visualisers are concerned, I’ll definitely consider it as an option but I’m not at that stage yet.

When you mention MIDI then of course a number of ways in which MIDI can be represented (and listened to, eg changing the playing intrument) comes up, it would be a shame to miss out on what it can do and use only its audio.

But like I said before, these aren’t the questions I was asking. The question, to reiterate, was what are people’s views on imperfect but authentic performances vs. artificially polished performances.

authentic performances vs. artificially polished performances is again different from your opening post when you specifically mentioned MIDI. If you merely want to focus on AUDIO then fair enough, I feel that limits the scope of the question as to what one can do with MIDI.

They may not be the question you were asking but they are observations of what issues may come up via that process. A student learning about reading might not get much from just listening to audio and following sheet notes because they still are trying to still learn to process what sheet music is. If that is complimented with visualisations of how midi can be represented then the connection between sound, areas of piano activated, sheets can become more easy to understand.

[klavieronin]

authentic performances vs. artificially polished performances is again different from your opening post when you specifically mentioned MIDI…

Well, it is the title of the thread 
But, admittedly, I may not have phrased the question well. I'm recording the midi data of my real performance on a digital piano (also filming the performance). I will then use that data to generate audio using a virtual piano. The question is whether I then edit that midi data to iron out the imperfections (random accents, notes not play together, uneven trills etc.) first or just use the raw performance. That's all I was asking.

[lostinidlewonder]

The title says: Authentic vs. Midi polished Performances where what you just said "authentic performances vs. artificially polished performances" is technically different.

Its fine many threads tangent on related topics perhaps not exactly what you want, that is how we get insights into things we might have missed or not thought about. If you say MIDI you open the discussion to many things which I have mentioned. If you havent noticed I have a deep interest in Midi

Since you are a teacher as well I know you are someone creating resources for students and are interested in the effectiveness of those resources, not just the technicalities of the audio production. It's why I elaborate into the bigger picture beyond just the recording options.

[klavieronin]

Of course you’re welcome to discuss anything you like here. I won’t try to force an answer out of you.
Just understand that it’s not what I’m interested in talking about at the moment. Have a nice day.

[klavieronin]

… I'd probably stick with a real, unedited, and imperfect performance.

Thanks liszt-and-the-galops. I appreciate the answer.

[lostinidlewonder]

Of course you’re welcome to discuss anything you like here. I won’t try to force an answer out of you.
Just understand that it’s not what I’m interested in talking about at the moment. Have a nice day.

I've provided answers to a lot more than merely an A or B choice in terms of recording.

That's fine perhaps you will expand the horizons when you're ready.