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Topic: The eternal student's question  (Read 2776 times)

Offline stormx

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The eternal student's question
on: March 01, 2005, 11:46:25 PM
Hi !!

Some data about myself:

I am 36.
I started from scratch 3 months ago.
1 class a week, 1 hour long.
I practice 1 hour a day.
I am no particulary gifted.  :-\

Right now, i am playing Beyer and Czerny excercices, and some kids songs...music i do not like, by the way.

I like classical piano music, in particular Chopin and Beethoven.

Can you give me a rough estimation of how much time do i will have to wait until i can tackle some Chopin or Beethoven pieces (not the difficult ones, of course)?
2 years? more?

I know that every person is different and progress at differents rates, but anyway...

Thanks in advance,  :)

PD: my teacher seems reluctant to give such kind of estimations  :-\

Offline musik_man

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #1 on: March 01, 2005, 11:51:38 PM
You could be learning them now if you wanted to.  Obviously, I don't mean you could be learning the Hammerklavier or the Ballades, but both of them wrote easier works that shouldn't be beyond your capabilities.  You might want to check out some of Chopin's preludes and some of Beethoven's Bagatelles.
/)_/)
(^.^)
((__))o

Offline sznitzeln

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #2 on: March 02, 2005, 12:00:44 AM
A lot of insightful people here say that czerny is no good... And you should play things you like. I agree with them.

How long it will take you to play i.e. Beethoven sonatas... there are different factors...
Is your teacher teaching you correctly (in many , perhaps most cases, the answer is unfortunately no)
How big is your desire to learn?
How do you practice?
Have you been doing any work with your hands...
Etc...

I think I played Pathetique after 1-2 years... but since my teacher was worthless I played pretty bad ... atleast according to my next teacher.

Offline richard w

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #3 on: March 02, 2005, 12:25:32 AM
Quote
Can you give me a rough estimation of how much time do i will have to wait until i can tackle some Chopin or Beethoven pieces (not the difficult ones, of course)?
2 years? more?

You should be able to play Chopin and Beethoven now. Have a look at some of Chopin's Preludes, as there are one or two easy ones there. (Others you will find impossible right now.) Listen to a CD of them if you are not sure which ones to try - I think you will hear which to start with, but you'll find them no less beautiful. Even the easier ones may prove to be a challenge, but where there is a will.... Likewise, Beethoven wrote some stuff you could consider looking at - I'm sure some kind soul will give you some leads to follow up, as I don't know specific examples. (I do have a book called The Joy of Beethoven (Yorktown Music Press) whose first two dozen pages should offer you something to look at right now.)

Anyway, to me it seems that you are hungry for progress. What you have to realise above everything else is that progress does not occur because you sit in front of your piano for a prerequisite period of time. Progress occurs because you are 'driven' to progress. Something must have prompted you to take up the piano in the first place. Most likely it was hearing someone else play. You were most likely charmed by the consummate ease and facility with which this person was able to play, and you thought 'I'd like to do that'.

Now, three months on you may have temporarily mislaid that image about what you are trying to achieve. You've been given pieces you are perhaps not all that struck on (hate?) and been told to sit in front of the piano for an hour, repeating until you are told you can move on. Unfortunately, it really is no good waiting until that magic moment when you will 'suddenly' be able to play Chopin and Beethoven - it doesn't really happen this way.

Instead, you have to pro-actively seek the goal you want to achieve. Remember once again the consummate ease with which you observed someone else playing, and make it your objective to achieve this kind of ease in your own playing, even if it is with the pieces you dislike. Furthermore, choose pieces you want to play (here is where some recommendations from here will come in) and then give them a go. Show your teacher such a piece and ask for his/her help, preferably after having made a start.

In short, time practising, alone, will not get you to where you want to be. You need to practise efficiently (see this board for lost of information on this, and discuss with your teacher), you need to practise every day, and you need to work out exactly where you are going and be 'driven' to get there. If you can take charge of your own destiny then you should find yourself richly rewarded.

I hope that inspires you.




Richard.

Offline bernhard

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 02:31:19 AM
Beyer? Czerny? Kids songs? Why, for crying out loud? ::)

I know why! Because no worthwhile composer has ever written any worthwhile piece of music that a beginner can tackle straightaway. Since such music does not exist, a teacher has no option but to assign crap for the first five years. (I am being sarcastic by the way ;))

Here is my suggestion:

Go to the threads below, make a copy, and tell you teacher in no uncertain terms that this is what you want. (You are 36, right? ;)):


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1834.msg13883.html#msg13883
(suggestions for some beginner pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1970.msg15762.html#msg15762
(easy sonatas)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2147.msg18098.html#msg18098
(Easiest piano piece ever written)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2314.msg19869.html#msg19869
(Schumann’s Album for the young)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2398.msg20989.html#msg20989
(suggestions for Scarlatti sonatas and Prokofiev pieces of beginner/intermediate level).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2851.msg24984.html#msg24984
(Introduction to romantic pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4140.msg38111.html#msg38111
(True repertory for total beginners)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4416.msg41105.html#msg41105
(nice slow romantic piece for beginner)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5063.msg49589.html#msg49589
(Albums for the young)

Good luck!

Best wishes,
Bernhard
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Rez

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #5 on: March 02, 2005, 03:25:22 PM
On behalf of another late beginner, thank you once again, Bernhard,  for the valuable suggestions.

Bernhard's "Albums for the Young" link lists a collection by Leo Orstein  :o called Memories from Childhood.  As far as I can tell it is no longer in print, so you I don't think you'd be violating any copyrights by downloading it from here:

https://www.otherminds.org/ornstein/Scores/S066%20-%20Memries%20frm%20Childhd.pdf

I'm learning "Tale from the Moon" and really like it.  The "expect alot of dissonance" drew me to this suggestion.

Glad to have another peer in the forum. :D



 
The artist does nothing that others deem beautiful, but rather only what to him is a necessity.
~Schoenberg, Theory of Harmony

Offline mound

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #6 on: March 04, 2005, 09:03:12 PM
Welcome! and congrats on deciding to start piano, it's something that will give you great joy for the rest of your life!

Definitely read everything Bernhard has to say, and I agree, there is no set time you need to wait. The first real piece of music I learned was Chopin's Prelude in Eminor, and that was after taking lessons for 1.5 months whereby I was getting acquainted with basic posture and such. My teacher never wasted my time on Beyer, Czerny, Hannon or Kids songs, and I'm glad he didn't.

Good luck!

-Paul

Offline kilini

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #7 on: March 05, 2005, 12:09:53 AM
The most important thing to do, to avoid pitfalls, is to read Chang's book--https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

It's IMMENSELY HELPFUL.

I'm a four monther, and I'm learning Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu with his techniques. So far so good, I must say.

P.S: Stop the mindless Czerny, please. And learn Bach's Inventions as soon as you can.

Offline stormx

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #8 on: March 05, 2005, 01:24:59 PM
Thanks for your advices !!!

By the way, worse comes to worst (a Billy Joel song,  8) ).
My teacher has appeared yesterday with the Hanon Book...So i have right now Beyer + Czerny + Hanon...nice combo, isn't it?  ;D

But i was also given to study a pretty Rondo by Louis Claude Daquin (Tambourin), and i am working on it.

On the other hand, i told him i was tackling the easy part of "Fur Elise", and he encouraged me to continue and to look at the difficult parts as well...

Well, i beleive he is an OLD FASHIONED teacher, but he seems pretty competent and has lot of experience.

PD: you have to understand my situation, i CANNOT go to the next lesson and just tell him:

 "On Piano Forum, they say your teaching method is bad and that i should stay away of all this material you are giving to me"

unless, of course, i intend to change teacher.

Offline ujos3

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #9 on: March 05, 2005, 04:23:51 PM

Congratulations for starting playing piano.

I agree with the other posters about playing only works you like at the beginning. You are 36, you must first develop some sight reading habits and the pleasure of playing piano. No time to suffer.

1) look  at the links bernhard has shown in his post.
2) in www.classicalarchives.com you can download and hear the midi version of many of them. Choose the ones you like.
3) in www.sheetmusicarchive.net you have many scores, may be you will find some of them to see if they scare you or not.

For easy etudes that are beautiful and fun you have also the Burgmuller etudes, they are at least very expressive, nothing to do with Czerny IMHO.

You pay your teacher, he won't have any problem discarding czerny and the rest. Giving you those pieces he is risking to bore you and making you lose the energy you put in the learning process.

I also agree with the previous poster who says you must not focus in so long-term aims (Chopin, Beethoven sonates). You should enjoy every piece you are learning and "nothing more". But you should really enjoy it, and WANT to play it.
Concentrate in Tambourin and Fur Elise, they are really worth to play.











Offline SteinwayTony

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #10 on: March 05, 2005, 07:07:51 PM
Check out Chopin: An Introduction to his Piano Works, published by Alfred.  A very clean score (though edited to extremes) with some great Chopin pieces to start with.  There are a couple Mazurkas, a couple Waltzes, a couple Preludes, and I think that might be it.

Offline bachmaninov

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #11 on: March 06, 2005, 08:09:39 PM
Much like learning a language, kids tend to learn things much faster than adults (which is common sense) - It all depends on your teacher, and your time and dedication towards piano. Otherwise I have no idea what the learning habits of adults are  :P

Offline terminal

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Re: The eternal student's question
Reply #12 on: March 06, 2005, 11:13:55 PM
Wow considering this is much like my post the ratio of good to bad piano teachers must be very low. I have been reading Bernhard's replies for months now and from his reply I think I need to look for another piano teacher that will "drive me" towards the results I want.

Everything in life is like this, in college you have a course outline that gets you to a degree. Why does it seem so impossible that learning the piano can be progressed in the same fashion. I think it does need to be this way and I believe that the piano instructor needs to set expectations every week on there students just like a college course would to succeed.

But for those of us that were not music majors in school (I plan on taking night classes to get my second degree in music) how do we find or develop a course outline to get there? (see my goals post).

Cheers
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